@Thread

Play.com's (UK) PS3 + Bioshock is tempting but the Curries only PS3 160Gb seems like a waste of shelf space. I would like to play SuperStardust HD as much as the next Amigan but why pay a £60 premium for a bigger hard drive? Sony would have been better off asking people to pay a premium for PS2 back compatibility! Sony have been a waste of space this year

Resistance 2 and Little Big Planet are not killer apps. The PS3 should be trouncing the XBox 360 with its crazy reliability problems, but it isn't. Also, I like Red Alert and Red Alert 3 is XBox only and yet the PS3 is the one with keyboard support - SCREWED UP! What is the incentive to buy a PS3 over a Xbox apart from reliability? Nothing is the answer! Once Microsoft get smaller, cooler running parts and reduce red ring of death failures, then the PS3 will be left in the dust the way I see it. Sony have brought this on themselves. I played Eye Toy Sega Superstars on the PS2 at a house party on Friday, and it was great and unbelievably came out in 2004! With such a headstart over the Wii, how did they drop the ball so badly with casual party gamers?

Sony's brand loyalty rating in my eyes is now faltering towards zero. I can't play PS2 games on a PS3 so I might as well buy the machine with the better hard core games/ones I like to play - Dead Rising/Red Alert/ Bioshock i.e. THE M$ 360! I of course have a problem supporting Bill and his evil empire and red ding of death sucks, so I'm sticking with the PS2 at the moment. NEXT GEN GAMING SUCKS!! and the Wii is overhyped!

Last edited by BigD on 30-Nov-2008 at 08:38 PM.

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@BigD

Red Alert 3 will come out on PS3 but it will be out a bit after the XBox version due to problems they are having with getting it to work well on the PS3s hardware. (Plus technically Red Alert 3 is not XBox only as its out on PC and that is bound to be the better version of either the XBox or PS3 ports).

Its just a shame that Sony dropped backwards compatibility (but I can understand why they did) and dont seem to want to include a software emulator with the newer models.

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@Amiboy

Quote:

ts just a shame that Sony dropped backwards compatibility (but I can understand why they did) and dont seem to want to include a software emulator with the newer models.

It does nothing to foster brand loyalty. The PS2 was so sucessful, it makes people think twice about defecting if they can use their old back catalogue, especially upscaled for modern tvs! If I didn't hate M$ so much I'd be better off buying a 360 other than RRoD!

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
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@BigD

As for the 360 RRoD... The current model, Falcon, is rumored to have reduced the RRoD to close to an industry average. The new model, Jasper, has a few sightings on the street. It has the die shrink of the video processor to 65nm. 360s of this model are expected to match if not best the industry average lifespan.

Bought MGS4, Resistance 2, and Fallout.
MGS4 > R2 IMO, by far. R2 is far too linear on gameplay. And, the 'swarm' mission (single player, no MP yet for me) is just annoying. MGS4, while it had a *lot* of cutscenes, is a great game.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

@BrianK

But how do you know for sure you're buying a 'Jasper' model?

Last edited by BigD on 03-Dec-2008 at 01:08 PM.

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

360 Arcades now have 256MB internal flash memory so that NXE can be installed.

@BigD

Quote:

But how do you know for sure you're buying a 'Jasper' model?

Good question. In a period like now when both older and newer models are out it's a bit of a guess. The power supply is one indication. 14 Amps down from 16 Amps or something to that nature in the packaging. If you search for 360 Jasper there are various sites that give the indicators. Come Spring 09 likely they'll be the only option.

US indications this season seem to be tracking PS3 sales on the bottom w/ 3x the amount of 360s sold. Of course the Wii is highest seller nearly equal to the combined 360 and PS3 figure.

Last edited by BrianK on 04-Dec-2008 at 12:33 AM.

@Lou

Quote:

360 Arcades now have 256MB internal flash memory so that NXE can be installed.

I think of a thread with a Sony apologist here that claimed HOME would only be possible on the PS3 due to the extra space in the bios. My counter was the bios can hold the boot info and the harddrive have more than enough space. How many times have we all ripped Microsoft for the sin of using .5% of our 1TB harddrives to hold their OS? Yet they wouldn't accept this explaination. So now we found out that 16MB of internal flash is used for the OS, clearly not everything is in the BIOS. Expanding the internal flash ram provides more headroom for NXE and for games too. I guess no surprise that consoles are computing devices that inherit concepts from other computational platforms.

@wegster

Quote:

MGS4 > R2 IMO, by far. R2 is far too linear on gameplay.

After your comments on Resistance: Fall of Man I am surprised you bought this at all.

In any case you are comparing two very different games, MGS4 is considered to the best of the popular series and best game of its gerne. The R2 single player campaign is of course linear as its a linear story, but huge maps with lots of onscreen activity though, tons of fun for me. How far have you come so far? Like I told you with regard to Resistance 1 the best parts are the later parts of the campaign (back then you "reviewed" the game without finishing the campaign, I like the building up tension approach).

MGS4 of course includes more polished assets, it had a much bigger development team working on this for years, while Insomniac released their third game on the PS3, last year they released the excellent Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction. From many technical perspective Resistance 2 is more impressive, especially the online functionality.

A game which both seems to have even better polished assets than MGS4 and a better game engine than Resistance 2 is Killzone 2. Some latest screenshots:

2007 (already looked very impressive in motion):

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/2244/02mn2.jpg

2008 preview build:

http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/186/01yp6.jpg



http://i33.tinypic.com/x3ekp0.jpgkitch.com/20081204-t9aq2gbjr6pk37ya3u956tgen7.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2hobm90.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/x3ekp0.jpg

http://i33.tinypic.com/iolqa9.jpg

Last edited by MikeB on 04-Dec-2008 at 03:57 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 04-Dec-2008 at 03:49 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

I think of a thread with a Sony apologist here that claimed HOME would only be possible on the PS3 due to the extra space in the bios.

I have to wonder who you are talking about, I guess you will have to quote him as with me you also misreprensented and twisted comments.

I also talked about this with you some time ago, the PS3 has had 256 MB internal flash and a harddrive this provides far more options for OS and functionality upgrades.

That's why Microsoft will now include 256 MB flash memory in their Arcade units, XNE is by far not what Playstation Home offers, not by a long shot and you can't easily keep using your old environment you got used to unlike with the XMB. If all models would have been specced good enough, that could have been an option.

There just isn't enough room in the 16 MB flash memory older arcade units come with to expect major new improvements added. XNE is a full replacement like it or not.

Don't watch this if you are already know you are going to buy Killzone 2, zealot PS3 doubters do watch this and be prepared to eat crow!

8 new videos of a recent Killzone 2 build:
http://www.jeuxvideo.tv/video/killzone-2.html#view:269758

It's hard to imagine, but they have a lot of SPU performance headroom left for a Killzone 3 to go well beyond even this.

Killzone 2 tech interview:

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/43389.html

A current state of PS3 vs 360 cross platform games graphics comparison

Now that the PS3 is 2 years+ old it's interesting to see how developers are slicing the differences between the consoles. Sometimes the 360 is better sometimes the PS3. I think how at this juncture is more of personal perference. In general if you prefer good anti-aliasing then the 360 is your choice and if you like better coloring then the PS3 is your choice. But even that isn't a hard fast rule. These 2 are so close at this point I think the answer is buy 1 and enjoy. If you're a graphics nut you're likely running a pair of dual GPU ATI cards in your PC and kicking both their butts.

I can see in 2 more years the PS3 is likely to be overall better than the 360. The question at that time though is likely how it competes with the 3rd gen Xbox.

Hi guys, long time no see. :)

What a difference six months make. I think Microsoft may have finally vindicated their Arcade model (sales-wise), although they had to make changes (like memory unit) to the concept to get there. I think (and still do) Microsoft missed a lot opportunities and lost ground to PS3 getting into this year (and let PS3 look like a success for a while, which cost mindshare), but PS3 has never been able to pull away and now it is slipping again... Interesting times.

PS3 seems to have dropped the ball for the moment, a price decrease in this financial climate would seem about mandatory right about now. I believe it must happen, so I believe it will happen soonish.

With numbers like this, Xbox 360 is back firmly in growth against PS3. And Wii is showing absolutely no signs (well, maybe some?) of slipping against longetivity expectations...

Quote:

Japan America Others Total DS 113,922 909,924 779,033 1,802,879 Wii 46,383 803,956 515,137 1,365,476 X360 11,829 477,956 310,355 800,140 PSP 57,054 254,618 143,818 455,490 PS3 35,339 198,068 169,234 402,641

Percentage trends from a VGchartz.com thread:

Quote:

Here is a calculation with some fidings of the last few weeks: Alltime/ 2 week ago / last week / this week hardware (in %) is: WII 48,3% 56% 54% 52% 360 30,0% 26% 30% 32% PS3 21,7% 18% 16% 16%

How do you, Mike for example, see PS3 price issue moving into next year? You predicted it to be "cheap enough" after Christmas 2008?

MikeB
Quote:

I think the first real global battle for the hearts of people will be around christmas 2007, I think the PS3 will by then have overtaken the XBox 360 sales in most of the world, except for North America and the UK. In 2008 I think the PS3 will overtake the XBox 360 completely, During the years after this the PS3 will be cheap enough to target the low end market.

Also a quote from BrianK (both of these Apr/2007):

Quote:

Now of course this was expected as Microsoft took the unproven/untried route to launch Japan/US/Europe all at once. What this ended up doing is ensuring quantities of the console were low. You can't directly compare launches when quantities available are inconsistent with one another. Certainly the PS3 will beat the 360 in the end. Looking at the current numbers the PS3 will not have the marketshare of the PS2. Likely the #1 Sony PS2 will be slipping to a #2 Sony PS3 slot where Wii ends up #1 and the Xbox 360 gains too on market compred to the Xbox. Last gen the PS2 enjoyed #1 position and 70%. This generation it appears Wii will be #1 and the 360 will likely be #3 but a stronger #3 owning a greater % of the market then the Xbox. Sony might be glad for sales but certainly can't be happy to lower their position in the marketspace.

Brian's comments were in line with what I would have said (and probably said) back then. Any changes in opinions? I will wait and see what the trends are, but I think Xbox 360 might (or might not) manage to win PS3 during its active lifespan, but I continue to think Sony will continue to sell PS3 longer than MS sells Xbox 360 so eventual total numbers are anyones guess.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=22772&forum=17&start=100&viewmode=flat&order=0

Last edited by jtsiren on 06-Dec-2008 at 08:14 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: Don't watch this if you are already know you are going to buy Killzone 2, zealot PS3 doubters do watch this and be prepared to eat crow! 8 new videos of a recent Killzone 2 build: http://www.jeuxvideo.tv/video/killzone-2.html#view:269758 It's hard to imagine, but they have a lot of SPU performance headroom left for a Killzone 3 to go well beyond even this.

With G7X GPU's design issues, it may need the support from SPUs.

For example,

1. Geforce 8600GT (128bit wide 256MB VRAM) beats Geforce 7800GTX (256bit wide 512 MB VRAM) /7950GT (256bit wide 512 MB VRAM) in Mass Effect (Unreal Engine 3 uses deferred rendering)
Link1

2. Geforce 8600GT (128bit wide 256MB VRAM) beats Geforce 7800GTX (256bit wide 256MB VRAM) /7950GT (256bit wide 512 MB VRAM) in Assassins Creed v1.02
Link2

3. Geforce 8600GT (128bit wide 256MB VRAM) beats Geforce 7800GTX (256bit wide 256MB VRAM) /7950GT (256bit wide 512 MB VRAM) in Crysis 1.21. Geforce 8600 GT passes several G70/G71 based SLI.
Link3

These benchmarks runs higher than ~720p resolution i.e. most PS3 and XBOX 360 titles runs in 720p resolution.

As shader program's complexity raises e.g. Crysis, one should understand why NV G7X GPUs doesn’t have Fold@Home GPU1 client.

Unlike PC G71, RSX is crippled with 8 ROPS and 128bit wide 22.4GB/s VRAM bandwidth (note that PPE and 6 SPEs are active and uses its own memory bandwidth).

Last edited by Hammer on 07-Dec-2008 at 07:44 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Dec-2008 at 07:43 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Dec-2008 at 07:40 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Dec-2008 at 07:35 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 07-Dec-2008 at 07:26 AM.

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@jtsiren

Quote:

How do you, Mike for example, see PS3 price issue moving into next year? You predicted it to be "cheap enough" after Christmas 2008?

Some games and services become available a little later than anticipated, like Final Fantasy XIII, Playstation Home and Killzone 2. The PS3 sells a little higher than anticipated, I expected 349 dollar entry pricing this holiday season and the 360 currently sells for well less than I anticipated, only 134 Euros including 19% taxes.

For the long run I don't think this will have a major impact on PS3 sales though. I expect a PS3 price drop early next year.

@MikeB

Quote:

For the long run I don't think this will have a major impact on PS3 sales though. I expect a PS3 price drop early next year.

The PS3 needs a price drop now within this economic state. After Christmas is too late. Due to economic worries I think all consoles will be down Spring 09 vs 08. The PS3 being the most expensive will take the greater hit.

Nov US sales from VGChartz shows a decline in sales of all Sony systems and the DS. DS was down ~7%. PSP down ~25%. PS3 down ~15%. PS2 down ~45%. PS2 has had a good life the dual challenge of Wii and Xbox Arcade are making in roads. DS makes sense to be down as next year there's a new model. PS3 I didn't expect down, Wow. I think part of the answer is the worry about economics and the PS3 is at the high end of this. Wii, well Nintendo prints it's own money.

My expectations, stated here many a time, were that the PS3 would pull ahead of the 360 by year end 2008. At this point this prediction of hope for the PS3 is going in the trash.

If the economies of the world stay down I think the PS3 price cut is going to have to be deeper than Sony expects in order to make up Christmas 2008 losses in marketshare. If the economies stay down I predict year end 2009 the consoles remain in their positions Wii #1, 360 #2, PS3 #3. That posses a problem for the PS3 going into 2010. Nintendo is already talking new controllers for the new system. Microsoft stated early 08 that work on the 3rd gen console has started. I predict 2011-2012 the PS3 will run into the next gen Nintendo and Microsoft consoles. Meaning the rest of the world will move along with them. Sony NOT #1 this gen is a secure prediction.

Last edited by BrianK on 07-Dec-2008 at 04:46 PM.

@BrianK

Sony is well over twice the employer than Microsoft is, that's quite a responsibility.

The dollar and euro dropped considerably in value compared to the yen, Sony is still losing quite a bit of money per console. The timing just isn't right.

There are many more Christmases upcoming for the PS3. IMO the main focus should be on developing a slimline PS3, which can be cheaper and will appeal to more people.

For people short on cash recently the PS2 only costed 79 Euro including taxes here in the Netherlands. That's nice and cheap. People being able to afford a new HDTV have the cash to buy a PS3 as well, which also doubles as the best Blu-Ray player:



The bigger the above bar the better.



The shorter the bar the better.

More data:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=74197

@MikeB

Quote:

Sony is well over twice the employer than Microsoft is, that's quite a responsibility.

Directly? You're right. Indirectly? I'd bet Microsoft employes more.

Quote:

The dollar and euro dropped considerably in value compared to the yen, Sony is still losing quite a bit of money per console. The timing just isn't right.

I think what Sony has to do is eat the loss and hope they make it up on Blu-Ray and games sales.

The Blu-Ray charts show that the PS3 is a good player but is it 3x in price better than the $100 players this season? I think the answer here is no. When the PS3 was the best and cheapest player then Sony had something. Now it's the best player and most expensive. In tough economy the best here isn't enough.

As for the PS3 there will be many more Christmases. Sony is 2 years into their 10 year plan for the PS3. Around 2011 we may see the PS3 as the low cost console as the Wii2 and Xbox3 will likely be new and likely more expensive. If they're not more expensive the PS3 is in further trouble. Ipredicted good things for Sony... #1 albeit lower marketshare and beat the 360 by year end 2008. My changed prediction is Sony will not be #1 by the time the next gen ships and PS3 won't beat the 360 until year end 2010.

I go back to the economies. If they don't pick up in 2009 then the PS3 is going to have a rougher time than the other 2 consoles. I think we've seen some of this already. The question will be will the rumored spring PS3 price cut be enough to allow it to close a gap in 2009? It almost looked there in 2008 but in the first part of Christmas 2008 vs 2007 the PS3 fell while the Wii and 360 gained. A tough economy worldwide is likely to impact the most expensive player more.