@Lou

Quote:

The problem is that he contradicts his own stance. What defines good graphics to him changes based on what he's trying to prove.

This type of behavior has been a criticism which a great many people have pointed out to him. I have never seen him even attempt to rectify this behavior.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @fairlanefastback Seriously, for a moment imagine these games would run like this on your Amiga 500: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AicqdWPSjKg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAjpHXxR_9o I think that would be jaw dropping, thus the Neo Geo provided graphically more impressive games. This is no secret. The absolute best looking amiga games would have amigans go: "The game looks and moves so well, you'd swear it was a Neo-Geo game!" The Neo Geo hardware was considered to be excellent for in arcades.

It's more of a JPN vs Western graphics style issues.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33zhVpNIFyY
"Amiga - Brian the Lion"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCAUTrgso8k
"Amiga Xenon 2"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHU2guYH7Og
"Amiga - Shadow of the Beast"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCqLqj3QOEQ
Amiga Elfmania

Note Amiga's multi-parallax levels compared to your Geo-Neo examples.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWDXk7G2_NM
Amiga Stardust ECS's tunnel levels i.e. an "on rails" shooter. "On rails" shooter presentation is still being use in same current gen console games.
Should I post Amiga's Super Stardust AGA's tunnel levels?

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_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@all

http://www.cnbc.com/id/33001659/

Sony's Latest Gaming Device Cuts Out Retailers

Quote:

Published: Thursday, 24 Sep 2009 | 10:27 AM ET By: Chris Morris Special to CNBC.com For Sony, the PSP Go represents a bold leap forward in the field of digital content distribution. For retailers, it might as well be called the PSP No. Unlike its predecessors, the new portable gaming system from Sony [SNE 29.43 0.62 (+2.15%) ] does not run on traditional packaged software. Any game or movie the user wants has to be downloaded — and that leaves retailers out of the loop on the most profitable part of any gaming system. While Sony will pocket a substantial profit from sales of the PSP Go itself (the device is, at its heart, a redesigned — and more expensive — version of existing hardware), the real money in gaming made is on the software side. By cutting retailers out of the mix, the electronics company is able to make more off of each transaction, boosting its revenues, while negatively impacting the bottom line of specialty stores like GameStop [GME 26.04 -0.19 (-0.72%) ] and Game Crazy — and even big box retailers likeBest Buy [BBY 37.30 -0.61 (-1.61%) ] and Wal-Mart [WMT 49.47 -1.23 (-2.43%) ]. As a result, it appears most retailers won't be giving the PSP Go launch the pomp and circumstance most new console devices receive. Though it goes on sale Oct. 1, the PSP Go is barely mentioned on GameStop's Web site. And analysts don't believe brick & mortar locations will go out of their way to promote the device during the holiday season either. "They're not getting a significant profit margin off of the hardware," says Eric Handler, senior equity analyst at MKM Partners. "If you're not benefiting from software sales, why should you allocate any significant floor space to it?" To be clear, no U.S. retailer is refusing to sell the PSP Go. And most of the complaints have been indirect ones — never on the record. One analyst likens the sniping by retailers to that of a petulant child. "I think they're all kind of greedy," says Michael Pachter, managing director of equity research at Wedbush Morgan Securities. "Retailers that sell consumer electronics should never feel they have the right to sell content for those products. For example, many retailers sell iPods — but they have no chance of ever selling content for those." Still, facing the potential of a less than enthusiastic retail push, Sony will have two choices — spent heavy marketing dollars for ads and premium floor space at key retailers or look for alternate ways to sell the PSP Go. One of those alternative may be targeting its existing customer base. "I would think the best way to reach the consumer is to offer it via PlayStation Home (the PS3's virtual community, which also has a shopping component)," he says. "In my mind, you have a core base of Sony gamers there and it seems like a logical way to reach that audience." The PSP has a moderate share of the portable gaming market. Launched with great fanfare in 2005, the device has worldwide lifetime sales of 52.9 million units. Nintendo's [NTDOY 33.22 0.11 (+0.33%) ] DS (along with its two variations — the DS Lite and DSi) have sold over 108 million units. Retail foot-dragging aside, the PSP Go faces some additional challenges with consumers. At $250, the device costs substantially more than both Microsoft's[MSFT 25.57 -0.37 (-1.43%) ] Xbox 360 and the Nintendo Wii. And because games can only be downloadable from Sony, the company is firmly in charge of pricing. At present, it does not plan to offer AAA titles at a discount from what they would cost at retail, which has angered some gamers. Pachter only expects Sony to sell 1 million units of the device over the holiday period — mostly to hardcore enthusiasts who feel driven to always own the newest hardware system. By early next year, he says, look for Sony to have to make some changes. "I think they're going to be put in the position of having to discount that thing after the holidays," he says. "I think it settles down to $199 and the [existing] PSP-3000 goes to $149."

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: When you have to pull external data, there is always a penalty. There's a penalty, but not like you put it. It would mean shared bandwidth for the CPU (and more latency), which is the case by default on the 360. But the benefit for the GPU is not only increased memory but also increased bandwidth. Quote: if Uncharted 2 was ported to the 360, it could still most likely run at a faster frame rate if the art assets weren't upgraded to take advantage of the extra available RAM. LOL Quote: The Neo Geo only have 64k of video RAM (compared to 1MB on Amiga) though it could display more colors and sprites than Amiga, it had to do so in low resolution. Sorry Amiga 500 games don't provide much higher resolution, NTSC games were lower resolution. No offense to the Amiga 500 (it's mid 80s tech, the NeoGeo is 90s tech). NeoGeo games looked way more impressive graphically than Amiga 500 games: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqb0ea31fUI Quote: It also had a 12Mhz 68000, which is faster than an Amiga 500 so once again having more CPU power does not guarrantee you better looking games WHICH HAS BEEN MY POINT ALL ALONG! The Amiga wins in graphics memory over Neo Geo as does the 360 over PS3. The NeoGeo with its tiny RAM was superior to the Amiga 500 in terms of graphics. Similarly the Amiga 500 was superior to PCs for 80s gaming, despite PC games at the times required many times as much RAM (and a harddrive for mandatory install): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cETl8PhUy_E It just shows the world isn't black and white.

The late 80s i386 DX PC hardware has ID's DOOM (1993) which blows them all away.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

Sorry, I love Amiga for many different reasons, but everyone except maybe a few like you knows Neo Geo games were graphically superior, also better than Amiga 1200 games with its 2MB of RAM.

Where's SNES Mode 7 style effects?

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Hammer Quote: In practise, why have PPE? Why not? It surely simplifies porting legacy software a lot (both as a host for development environments, as well as for hosting quick legacy ports). The SPEs only run tiny operating systems, they were designed for stream processing like Blu-Ray disc was designed for data streaming.

Fold@Home GPU2 only consumes around less than 10 percent of Core 2 Duo T7500 2.2Ghz. CELL's is not the only stream processor.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/HD_3850_IceQ3
AMD Radeon HD 3800 includes a "Command processor for reduced CPU overhead". This command processor is custom i.e. it doesn't have a standard ISA.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/12458/2
"Our tour of the R600 began, appropriately, with the GPU's command processor. Demers said previous Radeons have also had logic to process the command stream from the graphics driver, but on the R600, this is actually a processor; it has memory, can handle math, and downloads microcode every time it boots up. The reason this command processor is so robust is so it can offload work from the graphics driver. In keeping with a DirectX 10 theme, it's intended to reduce state management overhead"

Note why DirectX 10 GPU hardware has reduced CPU overhead i.e. it has a (custom) command processor. Unlike SPEs (available for STI group), R600 command processor's ISA only exist with one vendor hence it's "custom" i.e. Amiga style.

If you notice, AMD/ATI R600 has
1. command processor
2. dispatch thread processor

So, which ecosystem/platform keeps Amiga's GPU focused topology?

Last edited by Hammer on 25-Sep-2009 at 11:02 PM.
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Last edited by Hammer on 25-Sep-2009 at 10:48 PM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

So, which ecosystem/platform keeps Amiga's GPU focused topology?

Early on, what 300 posts ago?, I stated this and still do. If one is looking at the consoles for Amigaish properties. 360 beats the PS3.

@Hammer

Quote:

Where's SNES Mode 7 style effects?

There were similar effects in Neo Geo games, don't know how they were implemented though. But that's besides the point if judging graphics.

The Snes had very little video Ram, the Snes used this trick of rotating backgrounds a lot in games, it wasn't memory intensive. If anything, if you love mode7 in terms of what it did for Snes graphics this actually more underlines my point than those of Lou. It was a calculation effect, not video memory hungry assets.

Many Snes cartridges came with specialized co-processors not found in the actual console itself. In case you wonder why some games looked more interesting than others.

@Hammer

Quote:

The late 80s i386 DX PC hardware has ID's DOOM (1993) which blows them all away.

My former Amiga 4000 from 1992 can run Doom, Carmack was such a naughty boy to claim it couldn't.

Everyone I knew had to upgrade their PC (and usually buy a new one) to run Doom though. IMO Amiga, Neo-Geo, Snes, etc 2D games also usually stood the test of time much better than most 3D games. Doom actually looks too simplistic for my taste compared to all those modern 3D shooters, wouldn't mind a legacy 2D games collection for my Nintendo DS or soon PSP Go!

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Sep-2009 at 01:22 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 26-Sep-2009 at 01:19 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

There were similar effects in Neo Geo games, don't know how they were implemented though. But that's besides the point if judging graphics.

Your Neo-Geo examples didn't show it. Compare ElfMania's floor with your Neo-Geo examples.

Quote:

The Snes had very little video Ram, the Snes used this trick of rotating backgrounds a lot in games, it wasn't memory intensive. If anything, if you love mode7 in terms of what it did for Snes graphics this actually more underlines my point than those of Lou. It was a calculation effect, not video memory hungry assets.

I was referring to the "complete package" i.e. the entire game that includes the effects. Your Neo-Geo examples didn't show this case.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Sep-2009 at 01:58 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

My former Amiga 4000 from 1992 can run Doom, Carmack was such a naughty boy to claim it couldn't

I was referring to the late 80s hardware. You are shifting hardware specs yet again.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @Hammer Quote: So, which ecosystem/platform keeps Amiga's GPU focused topology? Early on, what 300 posts ago?, I stated this and still do. If one is looking at the consoles for Amigaish properties. 360 beats the PS3.

The rhetorical point was for MikeB.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Sep-2009 at 02:04 AM.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@Hammer

Quote:

Your Neo-Geo examples didn't show it. Compare ElfMania's floor with your Neo-Geo examples.

IMO Elfmania is the Amiga 500's best looking fighting game, it uses some smart tricks to keep the pace, most other A500 fighting games looked horrible, especially ports (most Neo Geo fighting games look top). Of course ots of experimentation happened on the Amiga due to the demoscene and great selection of development tools. Be sure to keep an eye on their latest and greatest PS3 games.

But here some Neo Geo examples:

Fatal Fury 2 for multi-layer parallax scrolling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKINVcyQKNM

Blazing Star for Elfmania-like scrolling background:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRSkji8D85g

@Hammer

Quote:

I was referring to the late 80s hardware. You are shifting hardware specs yet again.

I don't think most top PCs from 1989 were even able to run Doom.

VGA became standard by 1990, had 256 KB Video RAM (some 64KB or 128KB of RAM). Doom required 4 MB memory for example.

An expensive high spec PC from 1989 had a 20 MB harddrive and only 2 MB of Ram. Surely you could upgrade a much cheaper and older Amiga 2000 from 1987 towards being capable enough to play a game like Doom as well.

Before Doom or even Wolfenstein there was Dactyl Nightmare, an innovative FPS with VR head/hand tracking, mutli-player deathmatches, capture the flag mode, different hights, etc. The game system had an Amiga 3000 at its core.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Sep-2009 at 11:05 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Of course ots of experimentation happened on the Amiga due to the demoscene and great selection of development tools. Be sure to keep an eye on their latest and greatest PS3 games

I'm confused here. At first I thought their was perhaps a logical transition from Amiga demoscene to good tools. Then the next sentence came about keeping an eye on the PS3. Okay but where is the PS3 demoscene? There is a console out there with a demoscene. There's even a community building around the demoscene. Unfortunately Sony failed to give access to the GPU and with v3 of the OS doesn't even allow Linux. So those early people trying to do things with the Cell are now denied. Did you mean to transition between these 2 sentences or are they just thrown together with no relationship?

Last edited by BrianK on 26-Sep-2009 at 10:46 AM.

@BrianK

Quote:

I'm confused here. At first I thought their was perhaps a logical transition from Amiga demoscene to good tools. Then the next sentence came about keeping an eye on the PS3.

He was talking about Elfmania, the Terra Marque guys joined forces with Bloodhouse (stardust) forming Housemarque, they have a new PSN game coming called Dead Nation.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Sep-2009 at 01:16 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Hammer Quote: Your Neo-Geo examples didn't show it. Compare ElfMania's floor with your Neo-Geo examples. IMO Elfmania is the Amiga 500's best looking fighting game, it uses some smart tricks to keep the pace, most other A500 fighting games looked horrible, especially ports (most Neo Geo fighting games look top). Of course ots of experimentation happened on the Amiga due to the demoscene and great selection of development tools. Be sure to keep an eye on their latest and greatest PS3 games. But here some Neo Geo examples: Fatal Fury 2 for multi-layer parallax scrolling: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKINVcyQKNM Blazing Star for Elfmania-like scrolling background: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRSkji8D85g

I don't see them as being *superior* to Amiga's Elf-mania ECS. Any Neo-Geo game matching Super Stardust AGA?

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Hammer Quote: I was referring to the late 80s hardware. You are shifting hardware specs yet again. I don't think most top PCs from 1989 were even able to run Doom.

There's a good bet that VGA PCs outnumber Amigas.

According to wiki,"the model 55SX and later 56SX were the leading seller" for IBM's PS/2 line.

_________________
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB
Amiga 1200 (Rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32lite/RPi 4B 4GB/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (Rev 6A ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 3A+/Emu68)

@MikeB

Quote:

@BrianK Quote: I'm confused here. At first I thought their was perhaps a logical transition from Amiga demoscene to good tools. Then the next sentence came about keeping an eye on the PS3. He was talking about Elfmania, the Terra Marque guys joined forces with Bloodhouse (stardust) forming Housemarque, they have a new PSN game coming called Dead Nation.

Good info.

Where is the next generation of DemoScene programmers coming from? There is an XNA demoscene. The PS3, not so much. Sony didn't allow access to GPU and killed off Linux. Sony needs something for the hobbiest crowd.

@Hammer

Quote:

Any Neo-Geo game matching Super Stardust AGA?

No.

Last edited by MikeB on 26-Sep-2009 at 04:14 PM.