@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Sony's consoles have done is show they can copy others in features.

If the roll is for the 1st supporting 3D, recall that 3D tech has been around a long time as well and a 3D game using red/blue glasses was released for the Wii some time ago. I don't know if the game had to be played on a 480i display or not as it was a kid's title and I didn't buy it.

@BrianK

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It seems you want that giving people another option, use sign language, is a bad thing?

As I stated on the previous page:

"Of course such support would make sense"

However I think most people including deaf people would prefer a remote for the simple tasks you mentioned. Of course some deaf people may buy into the console for such features like some obese people bought into the Wii hoping it would benefit them (like they do with a lot of different products and supplements, many of which ineffective compared to mainstream sports/diets under professional supervision/advise).

Just played Crysis 1 on my brand new Windows 7 system with "very high"settings. Think the graphics are overhyped. Why do people do that? Well at least I know my PC is Civilization V ready...

I think Crysis 2 (judging from what I have seen so far) and also Killzone 2 looks much better overall (Especially in terms of character animation and scene lighting / Can't wait to get my hands on Killzone 3 and a 3DTV). I also greatly prefer a wireless gamepad vs keyboard+mouse, feels far more comfortable/immersive to me.

Last edited by MikeB on 09-Aug-2010 at 09:27 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 09-Aug-2010 at 09:25 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 09-Aug-2010 at 09:23 PM.

@MikeB

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I think most people including deaf people would prefer a remote for the simple tasks you mentioned.

I'd disagree. Signing, especially for those that know how, is a much more natural interface than looking at a remote and trying to find the appropriate button. Especially when there's learning between every new remote because the buttons are rarely in the same spot. Learn how to say STOP and your system responds, it's natural.

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Of course some deaf people may buy into the console for such features

The other feature of such an interface, does the Kinect do it or not, is a translation layer. Visually the deaf user can sign their sentence and the receiver was shown to have a visual read out of the sign. One other way to communicate is always good.

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many of which ineffective compared to mainstream sports/diets under professional supervision/advise

I hope you do realize you have no data whatsoever to add validity to this comparison. It's an unsupported assertion. The Kinect, let alone the visual interpetation features, is yet to be released let alone used. (Oh and as a side note even the professionals aren't much good either. Study's I've seen indicate that after 5 years from the inital weightloss the vast majority, approx. 80%+ put the weight back on. Even the ones who used the professional.)

@BrianK

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Learn how to say STOP and your system responds, it's natural.

BTW, you will have to say: "XBox ... Stop" for it to work judging from what I've seen so far. To me neither signing or talking to a games console sounds natural.

There are good remotes out there, you'll probably want to have a remote handy somewhere in your living room anyhow as the XBox won't change TV channels for you.,

@BrianK

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Study's I've seen indicate that after 5 years from the inital weightloss the vast majority, approx. 80%+ put the weight back on.

I've worked with obese people a lot in the past and had great results. It seems best to work in groups which help eachother, next to education, highly motivated coaching can do wonders. But the lifestyle change has to be permanent, it's also important to understand as you get older your body needs less food.

But having lived in the US I know how so many people are used to take the car to for example a 5 minute walk shop nearby or stop by dunking donuts, taco bell, pizza hut, etc, etc while doing their daily excercising, driving...

Dancing if done properly and swimming are great fat burning activities which will normally not overstrain joints, etc. Simply walking an hour a day can do wonders over time, more motivating may be to do this together with others and if you don't know anybody who would like to walk, getting a dog can help, as good as all dogs love this.

Last edited by MikeB on 10-Aug-2010 at 01:06 AM.

@MikeB

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To me neither signing or talking to a games console sounds natural.

We talk all the time. Some of us sign all the time. We don't carry around a remote to interact with anything, unless we're in the living room or doing a presentation.

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as the XBox won't change TV channels for you.,

Huh? Channels is old thought back prior to when TV didn't exist. (I know you said one you were a Tech Enthusiast but I figured it meant turn of the 21st century not end of the 19th.)

Tech enthusiasts realize channels are a bad idea for the people. It allows big business to spoonfeed us their content on their schedule. The DVR is but a baby step out of the old model. The old media controls the content and the end user can shift the timeframe a bit. If you want to do this the 360 works well as a media extender and you can switch channels to your heart's content.

Today we have the world of the social. Where the end user controls their viewing schedule. Channels have no meaning. I want to choose what I want when I want. I build my "channel" that best suits me. In this vein the 360 works excellent with not only DVR type of purposes as mentioned before, but Netflix, Zune HD, and soon Hulu content.

Come on Tech Guy get out of the old school and into the new Tech!

@BrianK

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We talk all the time. Some of us sign all the time. We don't carry around a remote to interact with anything, unless we're in the living room or doing a presentation.

Most people talk to people or animals but I don't think most people talk to their chairs, spoons, cupboards, etc. I also prefer to open my cupboard manually instead of saying something like "Cupboard 2 .... Open".

A cellphone is a remote operating device. My phone allows voice control, I think this can be an excellent option for people with certain disabilities, but I usually prefer to operate my phone manually.

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Tech enthusiasts realize channels are a bad idea for the people.

One can easily be a tech enthusiast while not being againgst TV channels. I am against the usual American-style TV channel programming though where the programming is interrupted every 5 minutes with commercials. Luckily around here that's not the case, plenty of channels only interrupt for example a movie only once in the middle, just in time for a short toilet break.

Listening to a good radio channel can be fun (for example at work), not knowing what the next song is going to be. It's being done en masse here in the Netherlands during working time for various types of jobs, like construction workers, factory workers, shop owners, etc. The Dutch are amongst the happiest people in the world, I think such mentality isn't bad per se at all. Many people think Radio channel programming helps them enjoy their otherwise quite boring job.

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Come on Tech Guy get out of the old school and into the new Tech!

As you know I am not against new options, but I don't think one has to invent new problems or one has to go with new trends or options if one doesn't think it enhances the way they like to do things.

I don't think voice control as demonstrated by Microsoft so far for the XBox would make me operate my games console more efficiently or conveniently. However some day such uses may make more sense.

@MikeB

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don't think voice control as demonstrated by Microsoft so far for the XBox would make me operate my games console more efficiently or conveniently. However some day such uses may make more sense.

Again to each their own. I still work with people who believe GUI's aren't something anyone should be using. We understand you dislike natural interfaces.

@BrianK

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BrianK wrote: @MikeB Quote: don't think voice control as demonstrated by Microsoft so far for the XBox would make me operate my games console more efficiently or conveniently. However some day such uses may make more sense. Again to each their own. I still work with people who believe GUI's aren't something anyone should be using. We understand you dislike natural interfaces.

Yet the premier game displaying Move @ E3 had you waving a wand like you wave a wand. How un-natural.

Hyprocritical criticism at it's finest from MikeB.

Sign language doesn't involve a controller.
You know if they added a sign language recognition-based game to the EyeToy, MikeB would be saying how innovative it was and how he's always been a fan of natural interfaces...ala the the movie we keep mentioning where a gui was manipulated with with Tom Cruise's hands in 3d space.

All that's missing from consoles right now is hologramic projection. Nintendo had been known to be doing some research in such things, btw.

Last edited by Lou on 10-Aug-2010 at 12:41 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 10-Aug-2010 at 12:40 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 10-Aug-2010 at 12:34 PM.

@Lou

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Yet the premier game displaying Move @ E3 had you waving a wand like you wave a wand. How un-natural. Hyprocritical criticism at it's finest from MikeB. Sign language doesn't involve a controller. You know if they added a sign language recognition-based game to the EyeToy, MikeB would be saying how innovative it was and how he's always been a fan of natural interfaces...ala the the movie we keep mentioning where a gui was manipulated with with Tom Cruise's hands in 3d space. All that's missing from consoles right now is hologramic projection. Nintendo had been known to be doing some research in such things, btw.

Lou I agree. I think we've seen this demonstrated in action. MikeB claims that sign lanugage is just unatural. Then cites how brainwave control is more natural and Sony does that. Even though there is 0 indication that Sony is bringing out a brainwave controller for mass consumption this generation.

I'm all for someone using a remote if that's what they want to do. It's unsurprising to find MikeB slagging a type of control that others find tempting. Early indication from Amazon and other pre-sales are a larger quantity of Kinect are on pre-order than Move in the USA. It'll be interesting to see how true sales fall out.

What I see here is Microsoft has been demonstrating novell interfaces for a while. They need to start assessing the technology and bringing them into production. I think we're on the same page here. That page is we are on the cusp of Minority Report type of interfaces. Where moving about without holding anything allows us to manipulate interfaces.

Last edited by BrianK on 10-Aug-2010 at 02:46 PM.

@MikeB

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Most people talk to people or animals but I don't think most people talk to their chairs, spoons, cupboards, etc. I also prefer to open my cupboard manually instead of saying something like "Cupboard 2 .... Open".

The reason for this is over time we've learned those objects are inanimate and don't respond. We realize they are not interactive and therefore don't treat them as such.

Having young children they do seem to naturally want to interact with all objects. They play at having inanimate objects respond to their wishes. In fact human fictions for generations have demonstrated that once an object is animate that a natural speaking or guesture is a way we'd prefer to operate with the object. For example: Go to the 60s and watch Star Trek. In various situations objects that were once inanimate are animated. As a result the people interface naturally with those objects. As a further example: Go further back to the 1800s read Ali Baba. What does Ali Baba do? He says the infamous 'open sesame' to unlock the hidden cave. Again natural interfaces to animated objects.

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Listening to a good radio channel can be fun (for example at work), not knowing what the next song is going to be

And there are ways to do this that are user centric. Not everyone appreciates classical thrown in with Country inbetween their Rock. What is being done is allowing the user's preferences to drive the randomness of the experience. Smart DJ and Social on the Zune or Last.FM are good examples of where one inputs their favorites and the system tries to align other songs that are similar in type, yet unfamilar. Or simply rank all music styles at the same level and you'll get the 'radio channel' effect.

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The Dutch are amongst the happiest people in the world, I think such mentality isn't bad per se at all

And how much happier could they be if they could influence the content they are exposed to? And for many influencing what content is sent to them may even make them happier.

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I don't think voice control as demonstrated by Microsoft so far for the XBox would make me operate my games console more efficiently or conveniently.

And I disagree. For example: you are playing a war simulation. You see a grenade lob at your team. Do you stop firing and moving to communicate this to your squad with a different button presses? Or do you continue firing and moving and communicate the condition by saying "GRENADE!"? Certainly one wouldn't wave something in the air, ala Wii or PS3, (well unless of course that thing was a surrender flag). Voice control can clearly enhance gameplay.

MikeB what I read here is a discussion that might have existed 30 years ago. One where people argued against GUI's and for keeping CLI's. One where you've already learned X so why would you ever want to do it naturally and not have to use the knowledge? It's not Tech Enthusiast it's Tech Elitist thought. I'd argue the Tech Enthusiast wants to democratize computing. How much easier is this if the user doesn't have 'learn' anything but uses the way they naturally interteract? Today humans conform to computer interfaces. As an Enthusiast I see a future where the computer conforms to human interfaces.

Last edited by BrianK on 10-Aug-2010 at 03:26 PM.

@BrianK

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Again to each their own. I still work with people who believe GUI's aren't something anyone should be using. We understand you dislike natural interfaces.

That sounds plain stupid.

It sounds a bit like someone who thinks motion control on the Wii sucks isn't allowed to think motion control on the PS3 to be good. That would be stupid to claim as well, as Playstation Move is more accurate and sports additional uses. (as fanboys are often irrational, vivid ones would likely scream "hypcrite", LOL)

If you aren't impressed with a certain implementation, doesn't mean someone else can't implement similar features the right way.

Some day there may be a system with good AI, it could be similar as talking to a person instead of feeling fake and cumbersome in usage.

@Lou

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You know if they added a sign language recognition-based game to the EyeToy, MikeB would be saying how innovative it was and how he's always been a fan of natural interfaces.

I think you sound so much as an extremist, always speculating how I would act while in fact you never have proof of that.

In fact I am not against the implementation of sign language in software, nomatter this isn't useful for the bulk of people it can be important to niche markets.

IMO using sign language to play a DVD instead of with a remote (or when lost with the buttons/switches on the console itself) I don't think is one of such examples.

A better example would be smartphone software which in near-realtime translates incoming voice into sign language and vice versa when calling any normal cellphone. Now that would be something that could really enhance the lives of deaf people.

So I am not anti-anything, I'm just not impressed with what Microsoft has shown with the XBox so far with regard to voice commands.

It's all so easy to understand, yet you guys make my writings look like rocketscience...

@BrianK

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Go to the 60s and watch Star Trek

Never was a trekkie. One of my least favourite sf series/movies. But the spacecraft computer actually had AI AFAIR.

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What does Ali Baba do? He says the infamous 'open sesame' to unlock the hidden cave

They didn't have remotes back then.

Voice verfication can be helpful to identify a person, but in normal situations I prefer a button press on a remote (or instant opening when approaching the house) to open my garage door instead of saying "Open Sesame", well maybe cool for one or two times for fun to see the look on people's faces.

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Not everyone appreciates classical thrown in with Country inbetween their Rock.

Hence I think it's good there are different channels top pick from. IMO there's nothing obsolete with having channels. Some discos have DJs I don't like, some I like a lot.

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And how much happier could they be if they could influence the content they are exposed to?

I doubt it matters at all in that regard. Part of the charme is listening together with other people. Also for example one could request a song and the DJ can highlight the reasons why the person that requested it think it's special. For example it can be used as an intro for marriage proposal, etc.

I am just saying it's not as black & white as you make it out to be.

For example the Dutch radio program arbeidsvitaminen (Work vitamins) is very popular and according to the Guiness Book of world records the longest-lived nationally broadcast radio show in history. Every time a differnt Dutch company is the central theme and its workers compile their top 10 songs list, to which other employees in other Dutch companies listen to (of course with their own preferences).

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One where people argued against GUI's and for keeping CLI's.

Let's make it simple for you to understand, a good CLI is superior to a bad GUI. If you don't understand that then I am sorry.

OK, just one example. I want my system to say "hello", in the simplest form in a CLI it could mean I just write "hello" with a keyboard and the task is accomplished. This can easily be a superior approach compared to using a mouse or other pointing device to select the characters from a virtual keyboard and if the GUI sucks (for example unreadable) and the CLI is very well done it will be greatly superior for this task.

Last edited by MikeB on 10-Aug-2010 at 04:58 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 10-Aug-2010 at 04:56 PM.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: You know if they added a sign language recognition-based game to the EyeToy, MikeB would be saying how innovative it was and how he's always been a fan of natural interfaces. I think you sound so much as an extremist, always speculating how I would act while in fact you never have proof of that. In fact I am not against the implementation of sign language in software, nomatter this isn't useful for the bulk of people it can be important to niche markets. IMO using sign language to play a DVD instead of with a remote (or when lost with the buttons/switches on the console itself) I don't think is one of such examples. A better example would be smartphone software which in near-realtime translates incoming voice into sign language and vice versa when calling any normal cellphone. Now that would be something that could really enhance the lives of deaf people. So I am not anti-anything, I'm just not impressed with what Microsoft has shown with the XBox so far with regard to voice commands. It's all so easy to understand, yet you guys make my writings look like rocketscience...

I'm just curious...
How many animals+fanboys will be killed by adding sign language features?

@Lou

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How many animals+fanboys will be killed by adding sign language features?

I've explained my harmless comments to great depth now. Now it's your turn. I don't understand why you would ask such a strange question you most likely know the answer to as well...

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: How many animals+fanboys will be killed by adding sign language features? I've explained my harmless comments to great depth now. Now it's your turn. I don't understand why you would ask such a strange question you most likely know the answer to as well...

Yes.

Not counting suicides, I would say ZERO.

@MikeB

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They didn't have remotes back then.

Nor did they have Batman's Utility belt. Something you'll need to carry a remote for everything.

As for the garage I'd think 'open sesame' is a final step in verification. It would identify my facial features and my car model. It'd not allow any unapproved car or user into the garage. In your one button world there is a lack of verification. Anybody can walk off with your remote and steal stuff out of your garage. Actually this happened to my wife just as a bit after our first date.

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Part of the charme is listening together with other people

This isn't a problem without resolution. An example with the 360 is Netflix has a party mode which allows your remote friends to watch the show along with you. Social Zune lets you see and select the music your friends are streaming. Within the same work environment speakers still work of course.

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Also for example one could request a song and the DJ can highlight the reasons why the person that requested it think it's special.

Could happen. Though I wonder how many are denied in this process. There's only so many hours in a day. A continual stream of marriage purposals, I project, wouldn't have a large audience.

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For example the Dutch radio program arbeidsvitaminen

Really your examples is how to try to conform the old media into a new social. It's not without it's flaws. For example, someone who can't get to the program during the required listening timeframe?

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Let's make it simple for you to understand, a good CLI is superior to a bad GUI.

Let's make it simple for you natural interfaces are superior to either. They require no work to learn and provide the users a level of ease. If the interface is making you do something difficult by my definition the interface isn't natural. It's some other type of interface.

@BrianK

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Actually this happened to my wife just as a bit after our first date.

So what did you take, dirty laundry?

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In your one button world there is a lack of verification

Not per se, it would be possible to allow the button to verify finger prints and maybe at some point even compare DNA.

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Anybody can walk off with your remote and steal stuff out of your garage.

First one has to break into my car and then have the guts and knowledge to also drive to my house and open the garage which the person usuallly wouldn't know if there is somebody at home or if there are surveillance cameras / perceptive neighbours, etc.

I think you are being a little paranoid here unless you have something very important to hide in your garage that some superspy may be tasked to get hold of. In which case it may be better to have a secret underground batcave instead of your plain ordinary garage with nothing of equal value to the car which has been stolen already and not worth the effort and risk to be caught after that fact for the thief.

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It's not without it's flaws.

Like are most things, however it's popular and thus not obsolete by definition.

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Let's make it simple for you natural interfaces are superior to either

No, not per se. It can be in situations but just as well a GUI/CLI interface can be superior in other situations.