http://www.next-gen.biz/news/kinect-%E2%80%9Cwill-not-support-sign-language%E2%80%9D

Looks like there may need to be a Kinect 2.0 before we get sign language recognition and such. The shipping version of Kinect is only a 320x240 camera. :(

@Lou

Quote:

Looks like there may need to be a Kinect 2.0 before we get sign language recognition and such.

Bummer. But, again there never was any direct confirmation by the manufacturer. It's nice to see where the vision is with this technology. Though I still contend a true translation layer between ASL and the english is going to be difficult. Many things in either languages don't have a direct translation. My experience with the deaf community using ASL is a source of pride and, on the whole, they'd be unwilling to switch to Exact English Signing. This would allow for a much easier translation via device. Guess we'll have to be content with the Minority Report--like waving of hands and arms for a while.

@BrianK

It's nice to see how spot-on my initial analysis was with regard to this.

The IMO top three biggest problems with Kinect is:

1) A very noticeable response lag. This kills the potential of fast paced accurate gaming. In part this is due to the too slow camera and in part due to the additional processing going on taking too much time.

2) No analog stick/buttons or triggers. It can't recognize seperate fingers, so even pretending you are pulling an imaginary trigger on an imaginary gun won't work (which IMO would be ackward anyway, holding nothing and pretending). Also look at the Starwars game under development, you can't rotate your view nor manually walk this while lightsaber slashes display notieable lag...

3) The camera is IMO far too big and ugly and pretty expensive for what you get.

Technical specifications Playstation Eye vs Kinect cameras:

Kinect in addition to normal camera also includes an infrared camera, which could allow it to do better in different light situations, but likely not in the case of Playstation Eye + Playstation Move cases for most games.

Horizontal field of view:

Kinect: 57 degrees
Playstation Eye: 75 degrees

Vertical field of view:

Kinect: 43 degrees
Playstation Eye: 56 degrees

With 16 bit color depth:

Kinect: 320 x 240 @ 30 FPS
Playstation Eye: 320 x 240 @ 120 FPS

With 32 bit color depth:

Kinect: - (not supported)
Playstation Eye: 640 x 480 @ 60 FPS

Audio:

Kinect: 16 bit audio @ 16 kHz
Playstation Eye: 16 bit audio @ 48 kHz

Sony was offered the same technology by the developers of Kinect, but I think it's clear why they would pass for this technology compared to what the Playstation Eye provides at a much smaller size and pricing.

Last edited by MikeB on 13-Aug-2010 at 11:14 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 13-Aug-2010 at 10:59 AM.

@MikeB

Some things you are leaving out is that Kinect uses 2 camera and also I believe they are capable of infra-red vision...though my memory could be off.

The infra-red helps identify bodies from background.

But again, the features discussed earlier will be possible when they can bring the original "Kinect" tech out at an affordable price. The one with higher-res cameras and it's own cpu.

With Kinect, MS now has an official "camera" ala EyeToy. So now MS can officially support EyeToy-like software.

Oh and Nintendo turned it down. Can you link where it was said Sony was offered this tech? Nintendo has publicly stated they were and refused it.

Last edited by Lou on 13-Aug-2010 at 02:42 PM.

@MikeB

You make it sound like somehow you have all the answers and this isn't known? Microsoft created, or acquired the company that created, the technology. All you state is known.

(1) Not meant for fast gameplay so you're looking for something that it's not meant to do. (Darn 1 button remote won't open my beer.) Though it doesn't mean it's completely useless, as you seem to imply. Head tracking can pan and fly the camera. Voice tracking can give commands to others on one's team, say in a war FPS.

(2) DUH! No buttons were ever shown. Nothing here but your unrealistic expectation.

(3) Nothing less than personal preference. I hate the look of the PS3. I can think of prettier form factors. Though my personal preference doesn't mean the PS3 can't sell.

....


Did you see the new rumor of an Android 3 phone with built in Playstation Emulator coming from Sony this Oct?

@Lou

MikeB wrote: "Kinect in addition to normal camera also includes an infrared camera, which could allow it to do better in different light situations, but likely not in the case of Playstation Eye + Playstation Move cases for most games."

You said: "Some things you are leaving out is that Kinect uses 2 camera and also I believe they are capable of infra-red vision...though my memory could be off."

MikeB says:

Quote:

Can you link where it was said Sony was offered this tech?

http://www.ps3attitude.com/new/2010/03/sony-rejected-natals-3d-camera-tech/

@MikeB


MikeB wrote:
@Lou
Quote:

MikeB wrote: "Kinect in addition to normal camera also includes an infrared camera, which could allow it to do better in different light situations, but likely not in the case of Playstation Eye + Playstation Move cases for most games." You said: "Some things you are leaving out is that Kinect uses 2 camera and also I believe they are capable of infra-red vision...though my memory could be off." MikeB says: Quote: Can you link where it was said Sony was offered this tech? http://www.ps3attitude.com/new/2010/03/sony-rejected-natals-3d-camera-tech/

There, now we know that Kinect has a feature that EyeToy doesn't.
Perhaps you should revise your feature comparison a few posts above...

Last edited by Lou on 13-Aug-2010 at 04:36 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 13-Aug-2010 at 04:35 PM.

@Lou

Quote:

There, now we know that Kinect has a feature that EyeToy doesn't.

Yep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp04J6Fzd6c

Playing a volumetric 3D PS3 game on a 360-Degrees Autostereoscopic Display without the need for glasses:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BFKC-NKRFw

Some more background info:

http://tech.icrontic.com/articles/siggraph-2010-best-of-the-emerging-technologies/

"There were two RayModelers on display, both of which were fed by a PlayStation 3 console. The 3D Breakout game was controlled with the two analog sticks on the PS3 controller (rotate entire model, and rotate the paddle below). The video demo could be rotated, and the 3D character could be rotated and zoomed. Overall, I was fairly impressed"

@ Lou

Of course Sony Playstation never innovates...

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: Some more background info: http://tech.icrontic.com/articles/siggraph-2010-best-of-the-emerging-technologies/ "There were two RayModelers on display, both of which were fed by a PlayStation 3 console. The 3D Breakout game was controlled with the two analog sticks on the PS3 controller (rotate entire model, and rotate the paddle below). The video demo could be rotated, and the 3D character could be rotated and zoomed. Overall, I was fairly impressed" @ Lou Of course Sony Playstation never innovates...

Well the framerate was poor and so was the resolution...not to mention it being too small overall.
Invention is not necessarily innovation. Incase you didn't hear, the resolution was 1 degree. So 360 points horizontally.

By the time they can release a console that is of HD resolution instead of less than180 degree/points of resolution from any given viewable angle with this tech, holographic projection will be out.

As I said before, Nintendo innovates for the masses, not the classes. 99% of that innovation is in software. They take available tech and make it available to all. Software is where they innovate. Look at the Gameboy and Gamecube/Wii. Were they bleeding edge hardware ever? Super Mario Galaxy, WiiFit, WiiSports - that's where the innovation is, not the hardware. Going for bleeding edge hardware only assures you of being a loss-leader. They'll gladly had that torch to MS or Sony every generation.

Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2010 at 02:04 AM.
Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2010 at 02:04 AM.

@Lou

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Well the framerate was poor and so was the resolution...not to mention it being too small overall.

Yes the device is relatively small thus doesn't require much resolution, the framerate seemed plenty but I can't fully judge this based on a low framerate youtube video.

Quote:

Invention is not necessarily innovation. Incase you didn't hear, the resolution was 1 degree. So 360 points horizontally.

Innovation: "something new or different introduced"

Making a cheap implementation of existing technologies is often not considered innovation.

And you are wrong about the 360 degrees viewing angles as well. It does not refer to resolution, it means that for every 1 degree difference in viewing angle different images are being showed to your eyes. So there are 360 positions with this device to get a different view, at any point serving two different images to your eyes which your brain joins into one 3D image (so in reality this will look even cooler as the video only captures one of the images you would see at any point).

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By the time they can release a console that is of HD resolution

So mister Nintendo Wii fan, HD is required for innovation?

Quote:

As I said before, Nintendo innovates for the masses, not the classes. 99% of that innovation is in software. They take available tech and make it available to all. Software is where they innovate.

This is the first time a Nintendo homeconsole had a faster uptake than a Sony console released in a similar timespan. Sony also innovates for the masses, as it is of course well known there are way way way more Sony products in people's households around the world than Nintendo products.

The PS3 is also available nearly everywhere worldwide, it is a mass market product. 3DTVs will soon become mainstream, it is not strange entry pricing is higher initially. Pricing and manufacturing costs come down in course of time regarding new technologies. We Amigans aren't entirely alien to that concept neither. For example the Amiga 500 was better as well as cheaper than the Amiga 1000 when it launched.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Well the framerate was poor and so was the resolution...not to mention it being too small overall. Yes the device is relatively small thus doesn't require much resolution, the framerate seemed plenty but I can't fully judge this based on a low framerate youtube video. Quote: Invention is not necessarily innovation. Incase you didn't hear, the resolution was 1 degree. So 360 points horizontally.

Perhaps you need to get your eyes checked, even in the HD version of the video, scanlines were clearly evident and there was no fast motions/animations.

Quote:

Innovation: "something new or different introduced" Making a cheap implementation of existing technologies is often not considered innovation.

Once again you fail reading comprehension. I clearly stated Nintendo innovates with software.

Quote:

And you are wrong about the 360 degrees viewing angles as well. It does not refer to resolution, it means that for every 1 degree difference in viewing angle different images are being showed to your eyes. So there are 360 positions with this device to get a different view, at any point serving two different images to your eyes which your brain joins into one 3D image (so in reality this will look even cooler as the video only captures one of the images you would see at any point).

So they made a wrap-around parallax display... Your interpretation of what is being seen is different than mine compared to what was stated and shown. I wouldn't be suprised if some of the video was "ala Milo @ E3". Basically just alot of hype for nothing that we will see in the decade.

Quote:

Quote: By the time they can release a console that is of HD resolution So mister Nintendo Wii fan, HD is required for innovation?

From what I saw in your video, you can hook up a Wii to a wrap-around LCD and get better graphics...

Quote:

Quote: As I said before, Nintendo innovates for the masses, not the classes. 99% of that innovation is in software. They take available tech and make it available to all. Software is where they innovate. This is the first time a Nintendo homeconsole had a faster uptake than a Sony console released in a similar timespan. Sony also innovates for the masses, as it is of course well known there are way way way more Sony products in people's households around the world than Nintendo products.

The PS3 was clearly not designed *initially* for the masses. Quit smoking the wacky tobacky. And are you so sure about Sony products in more people's hands? Do you realize how long Nintendo has been in business?

Quote:

The PS3 is also available nearly everywhere worldwide, it is a mass market product. 3DTVs will soon become mainstream, it is not strange entry pricing is higher initially. Pricing and manufacturing costs come down in course of time regarding new technologies. We Amigans aren't entirely alien to that concept neither. For example the Amiga 500 was better as well as cheaper than the Amiga 1000 when it launched.

@ $300, the PS3 is still not a mass market product.
The A500 was also never a mass market product, otherwise, I'd bee replying on an Amiga 9000 right now instead of an HP Proliant.

Nintendo Co., Ltd. (任天堂株式会社, Nintendō Kabushiki gaisha?) is a multinational corporation located in Kyoto, Japan. Founded on September 23, 1889[2] by Fusajiro Yamauchi.

The first Sony-branded product, the TR-55 transistor radio, appeared in 1955 but the company name didn't change to Sony until January 1958

Last edited by Lou on 17-Aug-2010 at 01:56 PM.

Now this is interesting from THQ:

http://kotaku.com/5614696/wii-getting-tablet-peripheral

I'd like to see WiiUAE support this to allow drawing in DPaint4...

@Lou

Quote:

Nintendo Co., Ltd. (任天堂株式会社, Nintendō Kabushiki gaisha?) is a multinational corporation located in Kyoto, Japan. Founded on September 23, 1889[2] by Fusajiro Yamauchi. The first Sony-branded product, the TR-55 transistor radio, appeared in 1955 but the company name didn't change to Sony until January 1958

Yes the company was founded after the second world war, but what do you actually want to say? The company Sony started small with radios but saw rapid growth and now employs about 168 thousand people worldwide.

Nintendo also started out small as a card games company and now employs about 4 thousand people worldwide.

@Lou

Quote:

scanlines were clearly evident

It's not like those holographic displays in sci-fi movies such as Starwars and StarTrek were crystal clear perfect.

In any case this is true innovation shown by Sony, the upping of resolution in the future and bigger versions of the device or indeed price drops are more considered normal evolution of this innovation.

Quote:

I clearly stated Nintendo innovates with software.

Like what? Implemetation of existing technology isn't being looked at as innovation by most. For example having a GPS in your car was once a great innovation, but taking this tech and using this on your bicycle (like some do) isn't, rather a new implementation of existing technology.

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I wouldn't be suprised if some of the video was "ala Milo @ E3".

Milo was fake, this is real.

Quote:

From what I saw in your video, you can hook up a Wii to a wrap-around LCD and get better graphics...

No, then you don't understand what is shown in that video.

Quote:

The PS3 was clearly not designed *initially* for the masses.

It was initially targeted at adults and upper market segments. Absolutely 100% nothing wrong with that legally nor ethically. It was however designed for mass markets. Like the Amiga technology was designed for the mass market, despite the Amiga 1000 was targeted at different market segments than the Amiga 500. Nothing legally or ethically wrong with that neither.

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Do you realize how long Nintendo has been in business?

So what? Coca-Cola for example is older than that and started out with selling addictive cocaine drinks. What do you want to point out? Respect for the elderly? Relatively small growth compared to Sony over the years? What?

Quote:

@ $300, the PS3 is still not a mass market product. The A500 was also never a mass market product, otherwise, I'd bee replying on an Amiga 9000 right now instead of an HP Proliant.

The Amiga 500 was a mass market product and likewise is the PS3.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: scanlines were clearly evident It's not like those holographic displays in sci-fi movies such as Starwars and StarTrek were crystal clear perfect. In any case this is true innovation shown by Sony, the upping of resolution in the future and bigger versions of the device or indeed price drops are more considered normal evolution of this innovation.

Sony has invented many things, when it can actually be evolved and put to practical use, then is will be an "innovative design". Until then it's useless.

Quote:

Quote: I clearly stated Nintendo innovates with software. Like what? Implemetation of existing technology isn't being looked at as innovation by most. For example having a GPS in your car was once a great innovation, but taking this tech and using this on your bicycle (like some do) isn't, rather a new implementation of existing technology.

You're just being ignorant here about Nintendo's gaming innovations.

Quote:

Quote: I wouldn't be suprised if some of the video was "ala Milo @ E3". Milo was fake, this is real.

Right, and this video is real because MikeB says it is and there was no creative cgi added to it... Actually, I never saw a PS3 in the video, just a Sony-like controller...which could have been hooked up to a PC via USB cable infact the video states 'PC' and not 'PS3' so I call this again: useless.

Quote:

Quote: From what I saw in your video, you can hook up a Wii to a wrap-around LCD and get better graphics... No, then you don't understand what is shown in that video.

Perhaps, but until something is a product in a store, I don't need to understand it at all.

Quote:

Quote: The PS3 was clearly not designed *initially* for the masses. It was initially targeted at adults and upper market segments. Absolutely 100% nothing wrong with that legally nor ethically. It was however designed for mass markets. Like the Amiga technology was designed for the mass market, despite the Amiga 1000 was targeted at different market segments than the Amiga 500. Nothing legally or ethically wrong with that neither.

Computers were not mass market devices in the 80's. You could argue the C64 was but only when it reached a price point below $200. 101 analysts will tell that $200 is the mass market price point.

Quote:

Quote: Do you realize how long Nintendo has been in business? So what? Coca-Cola for example is older than that and started out with selling addictive cocaine drinks. What do you want to point out? Respect for the elderly? Relatively small growth compared to Sony over the years? What?

What? What indeed. Until you can factually state Sony has sold X units and Nintendo has sold Y units, you are making a baseless assumption.

Quote:

The Amiga 500 was a mass market product and likewise is the PS3.

Once again, 101 analysts beg to differ.

@Lou

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Sony has invented many things, when it can actually be evolved and put to practical use, then is will be an "innovative design". Until then it's useless.

Many inventions first get practical use in niche markets. An invention means innovation, even when someone today doesn't understand the long term potential and implications.

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You're just being ignorant here about Nintendo's gaming innovations.

I asked you what you were referring to, that does not mean I'm ignorant with regard to Nintendo's big influence on the gaming market.

So your answer is rather odd as usual.

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Actually, I never saw a PS3 in the video

A PS3 is clearly visible when the guy is playing that volumetric Arkanoid game.

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101 analysts will tell that $200 is the mass market price point.

Depends on the product in question. With regard to games consoles I think you are rather pointing towards an alledged sweetspot. It's certainly not an exact science, for example the 60 GB PS3 with its extras greatly outsold the 20 GB launch PS3.

But in general the cheaper the better for market penetration, if from the grand perspective a device provides equivalent features.

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Until you can factually state Sony has sold X units and Nintendo has sold Y units, you are making a baseless assumption.

Look it up, it is so obvious IMO it's a waste of time for anyone else.

Quote:

Once again, 101 analysts beg to differ.

Then you're listening to the wrong people.

Basically products which receive mass marketing (TV ads, Radio ads, BillBoards, etc) are mass market targeted products. The Amiga 500 and the PS3 both qualify easily and both performed well in terms of sales.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Aug-2010 at 06:02 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Sony has invented many things, when it can actually be evolved and put to practical use, then is will be an "innovative design". Until then it's useless. Many inventions first get practical use in niche markets. An invention means innovation, even when someone today doesn't understand the long term potential and implications.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation

Quote:

Quote: You're just being ignorant here about Nintendo's gaming innovations. I asked you what you were referring to, that does not mean I'm ignorant with regard to Nintendo's big influence on the gaming market. So your answer is rather odd as usual.

The Wii Remote was innovative in how it combined many technologies: ir camera, speaker, rumble and motion sensing into one package. That was hardware innovation. The platformer and it's evolution (from Super Mario Bros to Super Mario Galaxy 2) is ONE example of how Nintendo has innovated that genre of software...now stop being silly as if you are blind to these things.

Quote:

Quote: Actually, I never saw a PS3 in the video A PS3 is clearly visible when the guy is playing that volumetric Arkanoid game.

Clearly it wasn't clear to me, but I'm glad to know that the PS3 has the capability of an Atari 2600 when diplaying 360 viewing.

Quote:

Quote: 101 analysts will tell that $200 is the mass market price point. Depends on the product in question. With regard to games consoles I think you are rather pointing towards an alledged sweetspot. It's certainly not an exact science, for example the 60 GB PS3 with its extras greatly outsold the 20 GB launch PS3. But in general the cheaper the better for market penetration, if from the grand perspective a device provides equivalent features.

So show me an analyst who says otherwise...

Quote:

Quote: Until you can factually state Sony has sold X units and Nintendo has sold Y units, you are making a baseless assumption. Look it up, it is so obvious IMO it's a waste of time for anyone else.

No, it was your statement. You prove it. In software unit sales alone, Nintendo dwarfs anyone. It's so obvious for anyone else. Sony had no 1st party software to speak of for PS1 (*cough* Psygnosis). So Nintendo has been a company since 1889 and has unconfirmed sales since they are so damn old but yet you can clearly confirm Sony sales > Nintendo sales...

How can you compare two values if you can't confirm one of them? Actually you haven't confirmed either value. Then you wonder why you are repeatedly labelled a fanboy when your faulty logic is exposed...

Quote:

Quote: Once again, 101 analysts beg to differ. Then you're listening to the wrong people.

So I should blindly listen to you then? If that was the case, I'd still be waiting for OS4 on my PS3.

Quote:

Basically products which receive mass marketing (TV ads, Radio ads, BillBoards, etc) are mass market targeted products. The Amiga 500 and the PS3 both qualify easily and both performed well in terms of sales.

If the A500 was so mass marketed, why did Commodore go out of business?
Regardless, mark-market advertising of a product (like the PS3) doesn't mean it price-point actually has mass-market appeal.

I see BMW ads on TV all the time, I don't call that a mass-market vehicle in the US.
Once again your logic fails.