@Lou

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation

Strictly speaking:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/innovation

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it's evolution (from Super Mario Bros to Super Mario Galaxy 2) is ONE example of how Nintendo has innovated that genre of software...

Super Mario Galaxy implements mostly earlier implemented ideas. The galaxy concept for example looks very similar to an earlier Ratchet & Clank game. In general I still prefer a simpler Mario64 3D world concept, although I love some of the psychedelic effects used in the Galaxy series.

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Clearly it wasn't clear to me, but I'm glad to know that the PS3 has the capability of an Atari 2600 when diplaying 360 viewing.

You know you are intentionally lying here (where's the winky?). Look at some Atari 2600 screenshots.

BBC (2005): "While the PlayStation 3 is likely to be the first mass-market product to use Cell"
MSNBC (2006): "By making PS3 the first mass-market product to include an HD drive"

"Namco Bandai Holdings Inc. president Takeo Takasu has said in an interview that PS3 games must be a mass-market success. Games for the next-generation console cost an average of $8.6 million to create, according to Takasu, and need to sell 500,000 units before the developer can turn a profit."

500,000 copies sold is considered by Namco to be a mass market success, well there are now 50 million PS3s out there. And despite the slower uptake also the XBox 360 is considered to be a mass market product by most: "I've never seen a mass market product with such a high failure rate.", "Ive never heard of any mass market product being as poorly put together.", etc.

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You prove it. In software unit sales alone, Nintendo dwarfs anyone

Just include movies and music releases and make it easy on yourself.

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So I should blindly listen to you then? If that was the case, I'd still be waiting for OS4 on my PS3.

Why, I stated that it was up to Amiga Inc and Hyperion to work that out. I am not Amiga Inc nor Hyperion.

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If the A500 was so mass marketed, why did Commodore go out of business?

It did not go out of business all those years the Amiga 500 was on the market. The PC devision (another part of Commodore) showed huge losses and C= finally understood they had to invest into R&D (which costs cash they didn't have much of anymore), they built up a huge inventory of CD32s for the US launch, but the US launch of the console got blocked by court due to patent related issues, that was the final nail.

I would have thought you already knew this story.

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I see BMW ads on TV all the time

BMW is geared at upper segments of the market, they do pump out over a million cars each year. So they do mass produce their cars.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Innovation Strictly speaking: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/innovation Quote: it's evolution (from Super Mario Bros to Super Mario Galaxy 2) is ONE example of how Nintendo has innovated that genre of software... Super Mario Galaxy implements mostly earlier implemented ideas. The galaxy concept for example looks very similar to an earlier Ratchet & Clank game. In general I still prefer a simpler Mario64 3D world concept, although I love some of the psychedelic effects used in the Galaxy series.

Dude. Are you just dumb? SM64 was the evolution of the 2D platformer to 3D. Ratchet & Clank came later. All 3D platformers descend from SM64. The reason I went from Super Marios Bros to Super Mario Galaxy 2 was to encapsulate the beginning and current end of their innovation. The fact that there were steps along the way was blatantly obvious...though you like to ignore the obvious when it suits you.

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Quote: Clearly it wasn't clear to me, but I'm glad to know that the PS3 has the capability of an Atari 2600 when diplaying 360 viewing. You know you are intentionally lying here (where's the winky?). Look at some Atari 2600 screenshots.

I don't see how that breakout game was superior to the Atari 2600 version. I believe it was 4 colors.

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BBC (2005): "While the PlayStation 3 is likely to be the first mass-market product to use Cell" MSNBC (2006): "By making PS3 the first mass-market product to include an HD drive" "Namco Bandai Holdings Inc. president Takeo Takasu has said in an interview that PS3 games must be a mass-market success. Games for the next-generation console cost an average of $8.6 million to create, according to Takasu, and need to sell 500,000 units before the developer can turn a profit." 500,000 copies sold is considered by Namco to be a mass market success, well there are now 50 million PS3s out there. And despite the slower uptake also the XBox 360 is considered to be a mass market product by most: "I've never seen a mass market product with such a high failure rate.", "Ive never heard of any mass market product being as poorly put together.", etc.

LOL, what was that term you use: relative?
When the PS3 only had 2 million unit sales, 500k is mass market to that small market of 2 million. When PS3 is in 3rd place of a 3-horse race, it's not mass-market.

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Quote: You prove it. In software unit sales alone, Nintendo dwarfs anyone Just include movies and music releases and make it easy on yourself.

Just include Pokemon trading cards...and all cards since 1889 and make it easy on yourself.

Fyi, games sell in higher #'s then movies or albums. "Gold" is merely 100,000 for albums. With gaming, Nintendo has many titles in multiples of millions. With TV's the #'s are even smaller.

Regardless, the point is you claimed something a fact which is indeterminable. That's madness.

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Quote: So I should blindly listen to you then? If that was the case, I'd still be waiting for OS4 on my PS3. Why, I stated that it was up to Amiga Inc and Hyperion to work that out. I am not Amiga Inc nor Hyperion.

yes, exactly why everyone ignored your recommendations...

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Quote: If the A500 was so mass marketed, why did Commodore go out of business? It did not go out of business all those years the Amiga 500 was on the market. The PC devision (another part of Commodore) showed huge losses and C= finally understood they had to invest into R&D (which costs cash they didn't have much of anymore), they built up a huge inventory of CD32s for the US launch, but the US launch of the console got blocked by court due to patent related issues, that was the final nail. I would have thought you already knew this story.

Oh, I know the story, but if it was such a runaway hit like you claim, Commodore's focus would have shifted. So the story doesn't support your original claim.

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Quote: I see BMW ads on TV all the time BMW is geared at upper segments of the market, they do pump out over a million cars each year. So they do mass produce their cars.

As was the PS3. A million cars a year in the car market is not alot. BMW's are relatively cheaper in Europe since they don't pay import taxes like in the US, so they are more commonplace. In the US they are not mass market at all...yet still "mass market advertised" aka television.

Also, something can be available to the mass market, but it doesn't mean it is bought en mass...nor does it mean there are massive quantities on the shelf.

@Lou

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Dude. Are you just dumb? SM64 was the evolution of the 2D platformer to 3D. Ratchet & Clank came later. All 3D platformers descend from SM64.

Nintendo created the heaven and earth..... yada yada

If what you state is true why was for example the 3D platformer Bug! released before Mario64?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcEvftza-HY

IMO for insisting somebody is dumb based on your own false "facts" makes you very stupid...

BTW, I was referring to the galaxy concept which is very similar in a prior R&C game released on the PS2.

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don't see how that breakout game was superior to the Atari 2600 version

If you don't see the difference in graphics capabilities I am very sorry for you.

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the point is you claimed something a fact

It is a fact, you liking this fact or not does not change this.

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I know the story, but if it was such a runaway hit like you claimp.

This may be difficult for you to understand, but I did not claim the Amiga 500 to be a runaway hit like that. But the Amiga 500 was a big success, testiment of this are the thousands of games released for it, demoscene, applications, expansions, etc.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Dude. Are you just dumb? SM64 was the evolution of the 2D platformer to 3D. Ratchet & Clank came later. All 3D platformers descend from SM64. Nintendo created the heaven and earth..... yada yada If what you state is true why was for example the 3D platformer Bug! released before Mario64? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcEvftza-HY IMO for insisting somebody is dumb based on your own false "facts" makes you very stupid...

Roflmfao!
You call a game that you can only move in 4 directions like that a breakthrough? That game could have been using the original wolfenstein engine which is not considered real 3D. SM64 let you explore a 3D world with 3D player movement and 3D camera movement. That type of psuedo-3D you insult everyone's intelligence with is laughable. It's nothing better than an iso-metric game with perspective.

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BTW, I was referring to the galaxy concept which is very similar in a prior R&C game released on the PS2.

SMG introduced letting a 2nd player collect items with a 2nd controller to assist the 1st player.
Running around on a sphere was introduced prior to R&C it's called planet earth and cavemen. SMG also wasn't limited to a sphere.

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Quote: don't see how that breakout game was superior to the Atari 2600 version If you don't see the difference in graphics capabilities I am very sorry for you.

Even if it's as good as the Atari 5200 version, what's the difference? For the person rendered in 3D with 8 camera, a PC was used and mentioned. Until a product is released for the PS3, resume this topic. It's dead until then.

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Quote: the point is you claimed something a fact It is a fact, you liking this fact or not does not change this.

According to MikeB, it is a fact. You, however, have the credibility of a hampster.

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Quote: I know the story, but if it was such a runaway hit like you claimp. This may be difficult for you to understand, but I did not claim the Amiga 500 to be a runaway hit like that. But the Amiga 500 was a big success, testiment of this are the thousands of games released for it, demoscene, applications, expansions, etc.

This may be difficult for you to understand but "big success" is relative. The C64 was a big success and it sold 4 million units in it's lifetime. Profit margins were slim but there. The C64 still isn't exacly a household name as most 40 somethings still won't know what it is. The Amiga 500 EVEN MUCH LESS SO. The A500 was successful to a subset of computer geeks from the 80's. That is all. PC's still outsold it...but no one model # in particular...because there were many manufacturers making clones. The PC-clone is what was successful and as proof, it's market still exists. Apple barely survived as well and they had no PC-clone business to bring them down...but look at them now with their PC-clone hardware...

@Lou

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Roflmfao! You call a game that you can only move in 4 directions like that a breakthrough? That game could have been using the original wolfenstein engine which is not considered real 3D. SM64 let you explore a 3D world with 3D player movement and 3D camera movement.

You can change your arguments every time you like, but that 3D platformer was released before Mario64.

If you now insist it must do 360 degrees rotation control and camera then here's another 3D platformer released before Mario64:

Jumping Flash for the Playstation 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBVlFy3nMcw&feature=fvw

I think it's really saddening how this discussion goes, as everyone here knows I loved Mario64 and Nintendo for their excellent kid targeted games. But your extreme anti-Sony and anti-reality comments almost make it seem I am anti Nintendo or Mario, which is so far from the truth.

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Running around on a sphere was introduced prior to R&C it's called planet earth and cavemen.

I didn't say R&C did it first, I just stated the basic concept is very similar to that game. There's a clear and apparent difference.

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Even if it's as good as the Atari 5200 version, what's the difference?

Come on, the Atari 5200 isn't even close to do like that technically in 2D.

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The A500 was successful to a subset of computer geeks from the 80's. That is all

My gaming friend at the time was certainly no geek, but he loved its games such as Lemmings, Alien Breed, Superfrog, etc.

The full sales figures of the Amiga 500 are unknown (and thus of course as well as with regard to the Amiga in general). We however know the Amiga 500 model sold more than 1 million units in Germany. The Amiga 500 performed very well in many European countries.

If you wonder like you asked earlier why Commodore didn't switch to Amiga since the PC division performed so poorly. Well they actually did near the end of Commodore, for example the top Dutch basketball team had to trade their Commodore shirts for Amiga shirts. Commodore put all their weight behind their last hope the Amiga CD32, but the blocked US launch killed any potential for that.

@MikeB

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My gaming friend at the time was certainly no geek, but he loved its games such as Lemmings, Alien Breed, Superfrog, etc.

I was a more "geeky" kid though (next to doing sports and a whole lot of other interests), that's why I went for an Amiga 2000 as my first Amiga model instead.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Aug-2010 at 07:38 PM.

@MikeB

You and I talked abit about the ability to create games for the platforms. Microsoft had a contest and gave $40K to the winner. They had to use the XNA Creator platform. The game, of course, is available for sale for $5 to whomever is interested.

Here's the Video of the winner. LUMI is a bit like Sonic.

@BrianK

Looks OK, but for Sonic fans I would rather recommend Sonic 4 which is being released later this year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-bB8oZC0kY

Sonic 4 sports a retro 2D approach and gameplay without feeling obsolete with horrible graphics and limited gameplay like seen in Megaman 9.

I like Snes, MegaDrive, Amiga-style retro gaming (with or without improvements). Atari 2600 or NES style games without significant improvements I usually dislike as they usually clearly demonstrate the technical limitations of the era (in terms of gameplay and overall design, graphics and audio).

An exception would be the Mario series for the NES, but then again I greatly preferred the All-Stars remakes of these games for the Snes.

BioWare lied to gamers, Mass Effect 2 has been announced for the PS3 coming January.

I have the game for my recently bought Windows 7 PC but I think the game is only 'so so', at least not as good as its hyped up to be. Maybe the game is better with a gamepad and home cinema setup but I don't expect wonders. But it looks to be a better product than Mass Effect 1 was, not that many technical flaws.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Aug-2010 at 09:39 AM.

Also in the news:

- PS3 exclusive Resistance 3 has been teased by Insomniac at GameCon in Gemany.

- UK's advertising watchdog ASA banned Final Fantasy XIII ads for the XBox 360 using the better PS3 footage. ASA judged this was misleading consumers.

- LittleBigPlanet 2 will allow user voice-overs.

- Sony announced PlayTV live chat. So you can watch TV and chat at the same time. I think not that desirable while watching a movie, but can be a nice option during normal programming.

- Sony announed a 320 GB Sports Champions bundle with Playstation Eye / Playstation Move for $399 by the 19th of September.

- The 120 GB standalone model will be upgraded to 160 GB selling for $299.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Roflmfao! You call a game that you can only move in 4 directions like that a breakthrough? That game could have been using the original wolfenstein engine which is not considered real 3D. SM64 let you explore a 3D world with 3D player movement and 3D camera movement. You can change your arguments every time you like, but that 3D platformer was released before Mario64. If you now insist it must do 360 degrees rotation control and camera then here's another 3D platformer released before Mario64: Jumping Flash for the Playstation 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBVlFy3nMcw&feature=fvw I think it's really saddening how this discussion goes, as everyone here knows I loved Mario64 and Nintendo for their excellent kid targeted games. But your extreme anti-Sony and anti-reality comments almost make it seem I am anti Nintendo or Mario, which is so far from the truth.

That's an FPS game with semi-platformer level design. You're even equipped with a gun from the get-go. You can make a claim that this is where Retro got the idea for the Metroid Prime game but to compare this game with extremely arkward jumping controls to a true 3D platformer is pretty shameful. I can see how your twisted logic warps your perception now. Saying this game can be a platformer is like saying my grandmother could be a lady of the night. While my grandmother technically possessed all the physical requirements, I don't think she'd cut the mustard...and neither does this trash. Thank you for showing everyone why SM64 defined the genre though. Your bad examples only makes Nintendo's innovations shine brighter.

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Quote: Running around on a sphere was introduced prior to R&C it's called planet earth and cavemen. I didn't say R&C did it first, I just stated the basic concept is very similar to that game. There's a clear and apparent difference.

you mis-labelled a spherical world concept as SMG's innovation. You are wrong.

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Quote: Even if it's as good as the Atari 5200 version, what's the difference? Come on, the Atari 5200 isn't even close to do like that technically in 2D.

Heck the 5200 even had analog control.
Really, what was so complicated with the poop they demoed? What you are missing is that so much rendering is required for this display that it cripples the hardware in what games can be create...which is again why this is a dead topic and bring it up again when it's a real product.

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Quote: The A500 was successful to a subset of computer geeks from the 80's. That is all My gaming friend at the time was certainly no geek, but he loved its games such as Lemmings, Alien Breed, Superfrog, etc. The full sales figures of the Amiga 500 are unknown (and thus of course as well as with regard to the Amiga in general). We however know the Amiga 500 model sold more than 1 million units in Germany. The Amiga 500 performed very well in many European countries.

I find it hard to believe that worldwide C64 sales were documented but not A500 which came out later in an era of even better bookkeeping.
Do continue with stating things as facts without the proof though...

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If you wonder like you asked earlier why Commodore didn't switch to Amiga since the PC division performed so poorly. Well they actually did near the end of Commodore, for example the top Dutch basketball team had to trade their Commodore shirts for Amiga shirts. Commodore put all their weight behind their last hope the Amiga CD32, but the blocked US launch killed any potential for that.

I don't wonder. You are the only one wondering here...

@MikeB

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Looks OK, but for Sonic fans I would rather recommend Sonic 4 which is being released later this year:

$5 or $59.95? Does Sonic 4 have more than 10x the entertainment? As it's not released we don't know. You had expressed excitment in Demoscene-like abilities of the consoles. If someone has that interest then LUMI gives them Sonic cannot.

http://www.next-gen.biz/news/next-generation-psp-could-have-touch-controls

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Three seperate anonymous sources have told Eurogamer that Sony is showcasing an unfinished next-generation PSP to publishers at the moment. According to the sources, the device is comparable in size and design to the PSP-3000 and features touch controls on the back. The rumours suggest that the controls on the reverse of the unit are the primary input method. Sony has been demonstrating the unit using several first-party games and is said to have settled on its business model already. One source expects the device to launch before the end of 2011, but others were skeptical, saying we wouldn't see the handheld for at least a couple of years. It is believed that Sony has rejected a disc-based storage system in favour of flash media support following developer feedback.

I don't understand these touch controls on the back thing...is that so your fingers don't block the screen? Perhaps now we know why the DS has 2 screens. However, putting touch controls on the back sounds like putting doorhandles on the inside...which is great if you don't have a top and windows to prevent you from accessing them...

Guess we'll have to wait to see it in action before passing judgement but I'm sure MikeB will be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread from now until then...

@Lou

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That's an FPS game with semi-platformer level design.

It's a 3D platformer released before Mario64. You can shoot, but you can also shoot fireballs in various Mario games. Only you shoot a lazer type weapon like in Turrican instead.

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you mis-labelled a spherical world concept as SMG's innovation. You are wrong.

Not I stated the opposite, I and many reviewers think this is the most striking and distinguishing approach compared to earlier 3D Mario platformers. Not strange as the name Mario *Galaxy* also highlights this.

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Heck the 5200 even had analog control.

Even if so, today Nintendo, Microsoft and Sony consoles all support more advanced analog controls. The PS3 analog controls are technicallly the most advanced amongst the three platforms as pointed out earlier.

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I find it hard to believe that worldwide C64 sales were documented but not A500 which came out later in an era of even better bookkeeping.

It may be hard for you to believe Commodore didn't make the sales figures public but you are just one guy who thinks he knows it all while in fact you don't.

In any case:

"Information on the sales of the Amiga throughout the world may be lacking in many respects. However, there are some figures available that indicate how many were sold during the Commodore era. These only show official figures, the number of Amigas world-wide has been estimated to be 4 times as much."

http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/sales.html

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I don't wonder. You are the only one wondering here...

No, you asked the question, I didn't. I just provided an answer to your question.

@BrianK

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$5 or $59.95? Does Sonic 4 have more than 10x the entertainment? As it's not released we don't know.

I didn't know the pricing was revealed, do you have a source for that?

Personally I think Sonic 4 will be more appealing to Sonic fans. Also in the comments sections of the video you linked to people were complaining it's a rather short game.

@Lou

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Guess we'll have to wait to see it in action before passing judgement but I'm sure MikeB will be saying it's the greatest thing since sliced bread from now until then...

Not yet, chances increase if the device sports a Cell processor.

@MikeB

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I didn't know the pricing was revealed, do you have a source for that?

Egads MikeB. Way to miss the forest by staring at a single tree. I'll buy you Sonic if it's $5. You buy it for me if it's not. Sounds fair to me.

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Personally I think Sonic 4 will be more appealing to Sonic fans. Also in the comments sections of the video you linked to people were complaining it's a rather short game.

Again egads. No one was standing up LUMI and saying don't buy Sonic. They aren't exactly the same. But, if one's giving someone a hint of what a game is like it's often helpful to make a comparison which they might know. Sonic is well known. LUMI is not the same game. It's very Sonic-Like.

As for game is too short comments. I see those as a positive. If the game was horrid people wouldn't cry for more they'd be glad it's over.

Do you support these Demoscene-like options or not man?! At this point you've left this reader, if not more, with the impression that spewing Xbox hate even at the expense at user created content is what is most important here.

Last edited by BrianK on 19-Aug-2010 at 05:16 PM.

@MikeB

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Not yet, chances increase if the device sports a Cell processor.

Pshaw. Quad cores let alone hexacore and dodecacores beat the Cell all over the playground, eat it's lunch, and take it's girlfriends. The Cell is crying by itself all but lacking a consumer grade future.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: That's an FPS game with semi-platformer level design. It's a 3D platformer released before Mario64. You can shoot, but you can also shoot fireballs in various Mario games. Only you shoot a lazer type weapon like in Turrican instead.

Every game called a "platformer" has a 3rd person perspective regardless if the game is 2d or 3d. This is a 1st person adventure. I don't care what it calls itself, history proves it otherwise.

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The PS3 analog controls are technicallly the most advanced amongst the three platforms as pointed out earlier.

Oh god... Sony must use special potentimeters from Mars vs. whatever Foxconn provides...

They're so advanced they couldn't do rumble at launch... IIRC, the original excuse was they couldn't figure out how to get rumble to work with tilt functionality. I'm suprised they haven't added a speaker to MOVE...oh wait, it glows different colors how innovative... Ofcourse, given the method of 3D space detection they implemented, they sorta had no choice on that one in order to differentiate controllers...

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Quote: I find it hard to believe that worldwide C64 sales were documented but not A500 which came out later in an era of even better bookkeeping. It may be hard for you to believe Commodore didn't make the sales figures public but you are just one guy who thinks he knows it all while in fact you don't. In any case: "Information on the sales of the Amiga throughout the world may be lacking in many respects. However, there are some figures available that indicate how many were sold during the Commodore era. These only show official figures, the number of Amigas world-wide has been estimated to be 4 times as much." http://www.amigahistory.co.uk/sales.html

Look, the numbers don't matter. I bought my C64 at Sears. Sears never carried Amiga because it never became a mass market product in the USA. And if it wasn't a mass market product in the USA, I don't care. If Commodore paid their f'in bills from the "mass market sales" you claim then they wouldn't have been blocked from USA sales. Why is this hard for you to understand? I don't care why they had bills but if their products were sooooo successful, money shouldn't have been a problem.

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Quote: I don't wonder. You are the only one wondering here... No, you asked the question, I didn't. I just provided an answer to your question.

No, you started it all saying Commodore has a mass market product in the A500.
Why do I bother... Don't waste my time replying about Commodore.

@BrianK

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if not more, with the impression that spewing Xbox hate even at the expense at user created content is what is most important here.

I said the game looks OK. Is that spewing hatred? I must say that game looks fantastic while in fact it doesn't look fantastic to me? What's wrong with you?

A nice effort, although I personally don't think using XNA is such a great idea for small creative developers. Microsoft demands the game to be exclusive to Microsoft, so that limits competitive choices, the dev is pretty much tied to and depending on Microsoft. It's not a complex game, it may be well suited for iPhones and such for example.

IMO Sonic 4 is more Sonic-like, so it was pretty natural for me to bring up this game as it looks solid and fun. Sonic 4 will also be available for the XBox 360, so at least you can't fantasize I only brought up the game because it would be a PS exclusive.