@Lou

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Every game called a "platformer" has a 3rd person perspective regardless if the game is 2d or 3d.

I think you and BrianK have some loose screws...

Anyway so you changed your arguments again. Here another 3D platformer released 6 years before Mario64 for the Atari ST, Amiga and DOS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF_a6qMeWP8

It allows 360 degrees rotation of camera and controls and is showing in 3rd person perspective...

@MikeB

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A nice effort, although I personally don't think using XNA is such a great idea for small creative developers. Microsoft demands the game to be exclusive to Microsoft, so that limits competitive choices, the dev is pretty much tied to and depending on Microsoft. It's not a complex game, it may be well suited for iPhones and such for example.

Perhaps you don't know that iPhone development can be done with XNA. Additionally, one could also convert the XNA game to SIlverlight and run it on Silverlight for the iPhone.

The question is will Sony ever let XNA hook into their PS3 or PSP environment? Thisl depends on the Microsoft and Sony relationship. Something you can't solely lay on Microsoft's door. It takes two to make that dance work. Sony, at one time, seemed to be open to development which they didn't solely control. Seems to me that was severly impacted, if not killed, with the death of Linux.

Now to just get seuck ported to the consoles...

@BrianK

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Perhaps you don't know that iPhone development can be done with XNA.

I mean that if you target the XBox Microsoft demands exclusivity. I talked about a XBLA game project which got cancelled due to being available for the PS3 as well.

There are better alternatives, both for free and simple homebrew as well as professional tools if you want to become a professional games developer.

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The question is will Sony ever let XNA hook into their PS3 or PSP environment?

I think unless the above changes this probably wouldn't make much sense.

So that game won't get ported to the iPhone due to the above mentioned Microsoft policy, nomatter if technically it wouldn't be much of a problem.

The game IMO looks rather basic and generic, maybe on the iPhone could be more interesting due to motion controls. Like moving/(jumping) the little flame by tilting the phone. I think that could make the game less generic.

@MikeB

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I mean that if you target the XBox Microsoft demands exclusivity. I talked about a XBLA game project which got cancelled due to being available for the PS3 as well.

I think the answer here is not as cut and dried as you make it out to be. XNA 4.0 appears to support not only Windows Phone 7 but iPhone and Android.

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There are better alternatives, both for free and simple homebrew as well as professional tools if you want to become a professional games developer.

Really? What have you programmed with XNA that was easier with what other tool? Early on it sounded to me that you were suprised that a free XNA Creator software existed for the Xbox. Did you go on to download it and make some games?

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I think unless the above changes this probably wouldn't make much sense.

Again 2 way street I don't see Sony saying, hey Microsoft we want you to run XNA on our stuff too. Do you?

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The game IMO looks rather basic and generic

Homebrew. Didn't you state you knew and loved that market well? I've seen much worse homebrew games that's for sure.

@BrianK

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Really? What have you programmed with XNA

Like I said before, it's a long time since I programmed a game. What have you developed using XNA? That doesn't mean I don't follow the market developments as a tech enthusiast.

I would recommend Flash or Java instead for simpler 2D games or OpenGL for 3D games or maybe look into for example Pygame if you want your game on AmigaOS4 or love Python. There are plenty of options available.

XNA is rather restrictive, limited and dictated by Microsoft. The Zune community for example developed OpenZDK to bypass XNA restrictions.

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Again 2 way street I don't see Sony saying, hey Microsoft we want you to run XNA on our stuff too. Do you?

Microsoft has control over XNA. Sony provides their own middelware and tools for free (including source code which can be adapted and ported to any platform), with far fewer restrictions and full game development potential:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhyreEngine

This option is of real professional games development quality as you can judge from some of the recent award winning games using this technology.

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Homebrew. Didn't you state you knew and loved that market well? I've seen much worse homebrew games that's for sure.

It won an award didn't it? I imagine this game wasn't the only entry in this competition.

What I certainly don't like is the XBox policy that released games for the platform have to be exclusive (even when using other tech for a port to the PS3). Also Microsoft delists the games which don't make them enough money. So free becomes as free as selling your soul to the devil for free.

Of course I support homebrew, but other homebrew efforts are far more open and harmless. The Amiga had a great homebrew community, but the devs stayed in full control of their software, they could do with it what they want. Supporting alternative was never a problem and they could decide on their own scheme such as releasing their software as Freeware or Shareware.

My favourite freeware game is Hurrican (Turrican clone) and my favourite shareware game is Warblade (Deluxe Galaga remake).

Understand?

@MikeB

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Like I said before, it's a long time since I programmed a game. What have you developed using XNA? That doesn't mean I don't follow the market developments as a tech enthusiast.

Following the market is one thing. Being qualified to say X is superior to Y, IMO, comes from experience with both X and Y.

I think it shows here. Flash? A tool I've used and consider quite bad. How many websites can you name that use Flash and in turn effectively break the browsers? Java? If you hate Microsoft security holes you better hate Java as much. It's getting better but it definitely has it's own memory leaks and security faults.

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Microsoft has control over XNA. Sony provides their own middelware and tools for free

XNA is free. It provides games on the Microsoft environment. But, to be fair that's the vast majority of computers on desktops in the world. One plus is the consistence experience. If you love java there are definitely examples of where Tomcat code won't run on Websphere, for one example of experience I've had. I had to change someone's Tomcat Java to run it on IBM Websphere. Portability for Java means you get to report your code for a different complier.

If you want free XNA tools there are Grommet and Mono in the open source community which aim to do what you're looking for.

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What I certainly don't like is the XBox policy that released games for the platform have to be exclusive

Ahh closed architectures? Something that has enabled Apple stock to be valued more than Microsoft. As you say Microsoft simply copies others.

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So free becomes as free as selling your soul to the devil for free.

That's silly it's your game you can distribute it to others. Why wait for Microsoft to do it for you?

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The Amiga had a great homebrew community, but the devs stayed in full control of their software, they could do with it what they want.

Well except eat because the Amiga profits are gone. Or you have things such as Sony buying Psygnosis and killing them off.

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Aug-2010 at 03:32 AM.

@MikeB

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Sony provides their own middelware and tools for free (including source code which can be adapted and ported to any platform), with far fewer restrictions and full game development potential: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhyreEngine This option is of real professional games development quality as you can judge from some of the recent award winning games using this technology.

Seems to me you're comparing lemons and oranges. XNA is a tool. PhyreEngine is an engine. Also, I'm not so sure about your free claim. It seems that one must be SCE licensed then you get it for free. But this isn't your typical Homebrew scenario which XNA fulfills. In fact, your claim of the professional games displays this truism, IMO.

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Aug-2010 at 03:48 AM.

@BrianK

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XNA is a tool. PhyreEngine is an engine.

The PhyreEngine is an open source, fully featured set of tools which can be ported to any platform and be freely adapted to suit your needs. It's really a fabulous technology provided by Sony to developers. It's royalty free and one can freely use the technology to develop for rival platforms.

To quote a developer using this kit:

"The graphics are gorgeous and the physics look great from the trailers; what can you tell us about the game engine used here? Was it developed in house? Connected with Gripshift in anyway?

The game uses a recent version of PhyreEngine combined with our own technology and tools. PhyreEngine is developed by Sony and made free for developers to use, so it's a great solution for download products where budgets are lower and every dollar counts. We also used an earlier version of PhyreEngine for GripShift on both the PSN and XBLA versions as we ported the engine over to 360. "

Really the quality of the games show for themselves how good this package is. I don't understand why you can't provide credit where credit is due.

@BrianK

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But, to be fair that's the vast majority of computers on desktops in the world. One plus is the consistence experience.

Luckily with regard to gaming, both the home console gaming market and the handheld gaming market significantly dwarf the Windows gaming market.

Also XNA is pretty much a non-factor for professional 3rd party games development on Windows itself. I greatly prefer open source and less restrictive alternatives for small scale homebrew games development.

This is not a strange standpoint and the reasonings I provide above aren't unreasonable.

@MikeB

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Also XNA is pretty much a non-factor for professional 3rd party games development on Windows itself. I greatly prefer open source and less restrictive alternatives for small scale homebrew games development.

Windows gaming is the largest gaming platform in the world. I notice how you need to lump 'all consoles' in which are different target platforms in order to beat a single platform, Windows.

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This is not a strange standpoint and the reasonings I provide above aren't unreasonable.

What I find unreasonable in your stance is you somehow feel qualified to judge XNA without using it.

Maybe if you developed more you might understand the free XNA and the free to licensed developers PhyreEngines are not equivalent.

A side note I never denied the quality of PhyreEngine. No strawmans please it's simply bad form old friend.

Here this might help. LINK You'll find PhyreEngine is the Engine and other tools must be found and integrated. It's not a full IDE that XNA is. Also note the end a great free tool for - LICENSED developers. Do the homebrew users want to apply and jump through Sony's hoops to be licensed? Oh and BTW I put in PhyreEngine on the USA Sony site. The onsite search capabilities couldn't even find a link. To to Microsoft put in XNA and can see it immediately. Different approaches to the Homebrew, making it easy XNA is what it's about.

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Aug-2010 at 12:39 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 20-Aug-2010 at 12:28 PM.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Every game called a "platformer" has a 3rd person perspective regardless if the game is 2d or 3d. I think you and BrianK have some loose screws... Anyway so you changed your arguments again. Here another 3D platformer released 6 years before Mario64 for the Atari ST, Amiga and DOS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF_a6qMeWP8 It allows 360 degrees rotation of camera and controls and is showing in 3rd person perspective...

Wow! I think I got dumber watching this video. It hurt my head for sure. Have you ever seen the game Portal? It was a puzzler FPS. This is a puzzler 3D platform game.

Regardless, here's what you missed from your Wikipedia source:

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Reshaping the genre Super Mario 64 replaced the linear obstacle courses of traditional platform games with vast worlds.In 1996, Nintendo released Super Mario 64. Until this time there had been no established archetype for bringing platform games into 3D. Mario 64 set a new standard and would be imitated by many 3D platformers to follow. Its gameplay allowed players to explore open 3D environments with greater freedom than any previous attempt at a 3D platform game. To aid this, Nintendo incorporated an analog control stick to its standard Nintendo 64 controller, something which had not been included in a standard console controller since the Vectrex (and has since been incorporated into the Sony DualShock, among other controllers). This allowed for the finer precision needed for a free perspective. Players no longer followed a linear path to the ends of levels, either, with most levels providing objective-based goals. There were, however, a handful of "boss" levels that offered more traditional platforming, and showed what a more direct conversion to 3D might have been like.

So yes, Alpha Waves is a platform/puzzle game, but SM64 is the closest thing to taking the well known traditional 2D platformer to 3D. Now quit failing at proving otherwise.

You go on about semantics but in the end SM64 defined the genre. Everything else before it was incomplete or a hybrid game. Innovation comes from taking existing ideas and combining them creatively. That's what Nintendo did. Invention is something else. Nintendo didn't invent the analog stick, but innovated when they put both an analog stick and D-pad on the same controller...then copied by everyone else. Nintendo is the king of gaming innovations. I never said they were the king of gaming inventions.

Sony has invented a 360 degree 3D display. Great. Now it will take some innovation to make it practical and usable for everyone. Call me when that happens.

Last edited by Lou on 20-Aug-2010 at 01:02 PM.

@BrianK

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Windows gaming is the largest gaming platform in the world.

Maybe if you include games such as minesweeper, card games and multi-platform flash/java website games played on Windows. It is still a big platform for MMORPG, strategy and FPS games, but Windows does not provide a bigger gaming market than home consoles and the handheld market (game sales).

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What I find unreasonable in your stance is you somehow feel qualified to judge XNA without using it.

Show me some of your fabulous XNA games you developed, hailing it as the best thing since sliced bread for homebrew/small scale games developers...

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Maybe if you developed more you might understand the free XNA and the free to licensed developers PhyreEngines are not equivalent.

I did not claim that at all, the PhyreEngine is far superior technically as well as for empowering large scale as well as small scale developers competitively (being able to modify and port to whatever solution you want).

@Lou

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Wow! I think I got dumber watching this video. It hurt my head for sure. Have you ever seen the game Portal? It was a puzzler FPS. This is a puzzler 3D platform game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_game

"The platform game (or platformer) is a video game genre characterized by jumping to and from suspended platforms or over obstacles (jumping puzzles). It must be possible to control these jumps and to fall from platforms or miss jumps. "

This game fully qualifies as a platform game and is done in 3D.

Talking about dumb...

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Regardless, here's what you missed from your Wikipedia source:

Never ever did I state Mario64 isn't excellent and an inspiring game. The difference with what I stated is apparent and obvious.

You claimed: "Dude. Are you just dumb? SM64 was the evolution of the 2D platformer to 3D. Ratchet & Clank came later. All 3D platformers descend from SM64."

Which is factually false and your attitude here sucks.

Understand?

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: Wow! I think I got dumber watching this video. It hurt my head for sure. Have you ever seen the game Portal? It was a puzzler FPS. This is a puzzler 3D platform game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_game "The platform game (or platformer) is a video game genre characterized by jumping to and from suspended platforms or over obstacles (jumping puzzles). It must be possible to control these jumps and to fall from platforms or miss jumps. " This game fully qualifies as a platform game and is done in 3D. Talking about dumb... Quote: Regardless, here's what you missed from your Wikipedia source: Never ever did I state Mario64 isn't excellent and an inspiring game. The difference with what I stated is apparent and obvious. You claimed: "Dude. Are you just dumb? SM64 was the evolution of the 2D platformer to 3D. Ratchet & Clank came later. All 3D platformers descend from SM64." Which is factually false and your attitude here sucks. Understand?

No your attitude sucks. Alpha Waves is a hybrid game per the wiki source. It then goes on to state that SM64 as I quoted is what defines 2D platformers to 3D platforms, not 2D puzzlers to 3D. You just can't face facts.

Understand?

Last edited by Lou on 20-Aug-2010 at 01:07 PM.

@Lou

Wiki states with regard to Alpha Waves: "By most definitions of the genre it could be considered to be the first 3D platform game"

But let's drop it, this is going nowhere. I concede, "All 3D platformers descend from SM64". Happy now?

@MikeB

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Maybe if you include games such as minesweeper, card games and multi-platform flash/java website games played on Windows. It is still a big platform for MMORPG, strategy and FPS games, but Windows does not provide a bigger gaming market than home consoles and the handheld market (game sales).

Again you are mixing PS3+360+PS2+Wii sales vs the PC. What I stated is prefectly correct. The world loves the Wii but Windows is the #1 target for games in the world.

If you want to compare gaming categories the desktop/laptop gaming (Windows+Linux+Apple) vs console gaming (Wii+360+PS3) vs handheld (DS + PSP) vs phone (iPhone+Andorid+WinPho) I suspect the phone market will make the most gains and probably be the largest segment.

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Show me some of your fabulous XNA games you developed, hailing it as the best thing since sliced bread for homebrew/small scale games developers

Again more bad form? I never said it's the best thing since sliced bread. I commented that you are passing judgement without even bothering to try it. I've at least tried it. I wish I had more time to make games. If you need examples there are hundreds of Indie games.

Something XNA does that PhyreEngine does not is provide for a development community. Being able to reach out from within the IDE to other developers for guidance is a big win for beginning programmers. PhyreEngine doesn't have this integrated. I'm sure one can find forums out there but again centralizing and creating a community of homebrew I find as a strong positive. Communities are built around Facebook, Myspace and XNA is doing the same thing for developers.

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the PhyreEngine is far superior technically

Again these are different products. Not every feature is a 1:1 comparison. I'd argue each does something superior to the other.

Again MikeB I think we can fairly summarize your point of view. If it says Microsoft you hate it. Why not at least try it first?

Understand?

Last edited by BrianK on 20-Aug-2010 at 02:31 PM.

@MikeB

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MikeB wrote: @Lou I concede, "All 3D platformers descend from SM64". Happy now?

Yep.

@Lou

Investigating 3D I found it interesting is the huge movie that drove 3D into theaters, Avatar, is on Blu-Ray. However, it's 2D only. I would think if one has a killer app in the 3D realm it would not be the cheesy post processing 3D, most 3D content, but the superior included in design 3D builds as shown in Avatar.

@thread

Time for a new thread. Part 7 can be found here.

This one is now locked.

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