@Bit7

Quote:

I don't understand this comment, I think you you saying that PS3 and x86 8x multicore is more simular than XBox360 to x86 8x multicore?

Developing for the PS3 architecture's specific requirements provides a huge speed boost on a PC and 360 as well as this achieves coherent cache hits on other processors. It's more work, but achieves good performance gains.

The PS3 would be more similar to such a PC CPU in terms of potential multi-threading gains.

Quote:

he Cell only has a single general purpose core.

The SPUs can run any type of general purpose code you want. It only requires more effort, aproaches which are more ideal performance wise (but not the easiest approach) on other multi-core CPUs as well.

Quote:

The Xenon also can run 2 threads per core for a total of 6 hardware threads.

3 cores of which the performance is divided over 6 hardware threads, the PS3 Cell has 7 cores allowing for 8 hardware threads (+ an additional core and 1 hardware thread used by the OS for background functionality, so in fact 8 cores in total, on a PC you would probaby dedicate 1 core and thus 2 hardware threads to the host OS as well), you can create as many additional software threads you want for each core.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-May-2008 at 02:43 PM.

It seems HAZE will require a 4GB install. I guess this is the solution to the poorer average seek times over 12x DVD... BluRay FTL! Let's also hope the game works on older models other than the 40GB model. Sony does not need a repeat of the GTA4 issue with that.

Sony should sell the system with a hard drive a la carte option. Let the user decide how big an HDD to put in. It seems the 40GB will get filled up fast with mandatory multi-gigabyte installations and game patches. After about 8 games, there is no more room...

http://www.eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=141073

@Lou

Quote:

I guess this is the solution to the poorer average seek times over 12x DVD... BluRay FTL!

Incorrect on average PS3 Blu-Ray discs have better average seek times as well as better average load times compared to 360 DL DVDs. It's true however Blu-Ray being much newer and better technology, many devs haven't yet tapped into its strongpoints, while CD/DVD based games have been around for decades. Uncharted: Drake's Fortune and Ratchet & Clank: Tools of Destruction are already making well use of Blu-Ray technology.

I could quote myself from past discussions, but I will provide 3rd party sources:

"For really old Blu-Ray drives (like 3 years ago). The PS3 uses a fairly compact triple wavelength OPU.

From my own personal experience testing a Sony BD-RE drive (actually uses a Panasonic drive mechanism) and a Hitachi-LG drive of similar specs, for similar sized data sets the BD drive typically has almost the same if not significantly faster random seek times. That's generally because data sets between 4-8GB span the entire disc for for DVD-ROM while only covering a third of a BD-ROM, so on average a BD-ROM is going to have seek times in the range 50-100ms with a worst case scenario of around 200-230ms. The DVD-ROM drive will average between 110-150ms with a worst case scenario of around 170-230ms.

Of course once you start getting into larger data sets that that Blu-Ray can handle the average and worst case scenarios (which is an entire disc sweep which takes around 350-400ms) will eclipse the worst case conditions on a DVD-ROM. That being said, even with 23+GB of data with a 100 randomly generate seek sectors I still get around 100ms on average. Besides, if you find the need to randomly jump around to random sectors greater than 4GB in span, then your title has bigger issues than the capabilities of the drive."

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157&highlight=speed&page=2

"2x Blu-ray Drive (72Mbps(9MB/s))
Single Layer (2http://www.neogaf.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=10460097
NeoGAF - Reply to Topicx CLV) - Constant Linear Velocity (Same speed across entire disk)
Double Layer - Couldn't find any data but no games have been released on a double layer yet.

Entire Blu-ray Disk is read at 9MB/s.

12x DVD-Rom Drive SL (9.25MB/S-15.85MB/s(AVG ~8x(10.57MB/s) DL (4.36MB/s-10.57MB/s(AVG ~6x(7.93MB/s)
SL(DVD-5) 12x Max (5-12x Full CAV) - Constant Angular Velocity (Speed Varies from edge to edge)
DL(DVD-9) 8x Max (3.3-8x Full CAV) - Constant Angular Velocity (Speed Varies from edge to edge)

SL DVD is 1.57MB/s > SL Blu-ray
DL DVD is 1.07MB/s < SL Blu-ray

Majority of 360 games are on DVD-9."

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=42157

The Cell has a similar ahead of its time problem, Mike Acton:

"What I've always said is that bad code, and bad data design in particular, is bad on any architecture, but it's particularly bad on the PS3 because the Cell is a much more modern, much more heterogeneous design. It's much more parallel, and so requires good data design and good code. So if you're poorly designing your data and your code, then yeah, I can see why it'd be difficult to take something like that and try and manipulate it to work on the PS3, especially when people have invested a huge amount of money and time on something that basically doesn't fit a modern methodology. Yeah, it's going to be time-consuming to get that to work - if it's at all possible."

http://www.developmag.com/interviews/174/QA-Insomniacs-Mike-Acton (part 2)

The Amiga introduced similar problems to developers due to its highly asynchronous design for its time, but allowing for better efficiency and throughput.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-May-2008 at 07:08 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 19-May-2008 at 06:49 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Lou Quote: I guess this is the solution to the poorer average seek times over 12x DVD... BluRay FTL! Incorrect on average PS3 Blu-Ray discs have better average seek times as well as better average load times compared to 360 DL DVDs.

Yes, perhaps dual layered discs, but not single layered...which is why I specified 12xDVD. I think the DL's go down to 8-9x...
The Wii is 6x but since it's files are about 3x smaller, it seems more like 18x... Even the Gamecube averages faster access times than either PS2 or Xbox. That's once reason why Nintendo stuck to carts an extra generation - loading screens suck.

@MikeB

Quote:

The SPUs can run any type of general purpose code you want. It only requires more effort, aproaches which are more ideal performance wise (but not the easiest approach) on other multi-core CPUs as well.

Wiki : Unlike a Cell processor, such desktop CPUs are more suited to the general purpose software usually run on personal computers. In addition to executing multiple instructions per clock, processors from Intel and AMD feature branch predictors. The Cell is designed to compensate for this with compiler assistance, in which prepare-to-branch instructions are created. For double-precision, as often used in personal computers, Cell performance drops by an order of magnitude,(down from 25.6 GFLOPS) but still reaches 14 GFLOPS.

Quote:

PS3 Cell has 7 cores allowing for 8 hardware threads ... can create as many additional software threads you want for each core.

1SPE means 1 thead (not as many as you want)
Wiki: Note that the relationship between cores and threads is a common source of confusion. The PPE core is dual threaded and manifests in software as two independent threads of execution while each active SPE manifests as a single thread. In the PlayStation 3 configuration as described by Sony, the Cell processor provides nine independent threads of execution.

@BrianK

Quote:

Unlike a Cell processor, such desktop CPUs are more suited to the general purpose software usually run on personal computers.

That claim does not contradict anything I wrote. It means the Cell would be performing worse in comparison to running legacy software like Linux. However Linux does run on the Cell as we all know.

The SPEs have limited branch prediction logic and supports branch hints to improve performance (as are the PPE and Xenon cores much simplified compared to desktop processors).

Quote:

1SPE means 1 thead (not as many as you want)

Jesus, what were you thinking when I posted that article within an earlier thread regarding the 8 SPEs working on 16 threads / double precision code?

Of course you can create additional software threads...

Optimal performance is gained by sticking to half- or single precsion code creating no more threads than there are hardware threads. That doesn't imply the Cell wouldn't be able to handle suboptimally designed software.

Wikipedia isn't always the most accurate source.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 08:28 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

That claim does not contradict anything I wrote. It means the Cell would be performing worse in comparison to running legacy software like Linux. However Linux does run on the Cell as we all know.

I could put general purpose code (such as linux) on a DSP aswell, but its not going to run as fast. I can run DSP code on a general purpose CPU but again its not going to as fast. It doesn't matter how I modify the code for either processor. Certain types of procedures will always run better on one or the other. Thus we still have specialized processors.
I would have expected the same to be true for SPE vs general purpose.

I will agree that getting the programmers to think how to parallel there code for more (in order to use all theSPEs) would be of benefit. However I don't think the best code produced for cell would be the best code for 8x x86.

@Bit7

Quote:

I could put general purpose code (such as linux) on a DSP aswell, but its not going to run as fast.

Desktop Linux distros are perfectly useable on the PS3 already and are a solid way to evaluate programming software for the Cell's SPEs. If Linux would be redesigned from the core up for the processor Linux could be made to fly on the hardware. But that's a huge task due to its origin, BeOS (or AmigaOS4 due to efficiency and requirements) would have been more suitable to adapt into a genuine PS3 OS.

'General purpose' software IMO isn't the same as just legacy software development approaches (the term is often used in this regard, as if the way desktop OSes or former non-Cell optimised AI alogritms would be a benchmark for general purpose performance). The Cell can greatly facilitate any kind of software (it's also very well suited to generate far more complex AI, like researchers are mimicing the human brain on the Cell or just have many more AI controlled characters on screen), you just have to step away from common legacy software development approaches which translates into gains everywhere.

Quote:

However I don't think the best code produced for cell would be the best code for 8x x86.

The leading games developers who digged into Cell development disagree. The advantages go well beyond just having to think more parallel.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 02:31 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 10:20 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 10:19 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Of course you can create additional software threads

What's your definition of a 'thread'.

From Next-gen.biz:
Quote:

Amazon top 10: Mario Kart Wii once again held off competition from both versions of GTA IV and Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures in an unchanged top four, while the Wii Wheel took second place in the overall chart, which includes software, hardware and peripherals. Newly released Wii Fit dropped from No5 to No11. 01. Mario Kart w/ Wii Wheel—Nintendo (Wii) 02. Grand Theft Auto IV—Rockstar (360) 03. Grand Theft Auto IV—Rockstar (PS3) 04. Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures—Eidos (PC) 05. We Ski—Namco Bandai (Wii) 06. Wii Play w/ Remote—Nintendo (Wii) 07. Guitar Hero III Bundle—Activision (Wii) 08. Petz Catz 2—Ubisoft (Wii) 09. Super Smash Bros. Brawl—Nintendo (Wii) 10. Ninja Gaiden 2*—Tecmo (360)

Mario Kart Wii may outsell the combined versions of GTA4 in the long run WORLDWIDE.

@MikeB
If an SPE can make a "software thread", what's stopping any other core/cpu from doing the same? What makes you think an SPE is so much better at that?

@BrianK

A thread programming model is a way to split programs iinto simultaneously (or pseudo-simultaneously) running tasks. The potential perfomance benefits are evident in a muti-core, multi-CPU or cluster of systems environments.

A software thread is an independent sequence of execution in a program, look at it as an abstraction of a hardware processor. For optimal fluent performance no more software threads are created than the hardware supports with hardware threads.

@ Lou

Quote:

If an SPE can make a "software thread", what's stopping any other core/cpu from doing the same?

Nothing, but people often refer to the SPEs of only being able to handle single threaded programs.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 02:29 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

That claim does not contradict anything I wrote. It means the Cell would be performing worse in comparison to running legacy software like Linux

Sorry I didn't say it contradicted. In the future I'll try to not support you and only contradict if that's easier.

Quote:

For optimal fluent performance no more software threads are created than the hardware supports (called hardware threads)

I think the point you're missing is when people talk about threads in a processor it's the # of hardware threads which result in maximum processing power. Sure any processor can handle any number of threads by your theory. But the result is severly degraded performance.

@BrianK

Quote:

Sure any processor can handle any number of threads by your theory. But the result is severly degraded performance.

The PS3 Cell supports more hardware threads than currently sold dual-core PC CPUs and more than the 360's CPU. But even running more threads like the suboptimal 16 threads per 8 SPEs double precision example (actually a double precision code format much more negatively affects its peak performance potential for that research study) the Cell can still mutliple times outpeform top competing CPUs.

For example the multi-threaded BeOS did not perform badly within single-processor PC environments, although there were no big performance gains in such environments as well. IIMO it's so sad this OS died, considering PCs have only recently started to move toward multi-core (first Intel and AMD CPUs arrived in 2005, Be Inc died in 2001 which launched a multi-CPU system way back in 1995) and this process is expected to facilitate in the upcoming years.

Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 04:00 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 20-May-2008 at 03:58 PM.

@MikeB

Also note an SPE is not a core.

Quote:

The PS3 Cell supports more hardware threads than currently sold dual-core PC CPUs and more than the 360's CPU

Okay and a quad core Xeon of today is ~200GFlops with 8 threads where the PS3 is ~205GFlops with 9 threads. A large part of the reason Xeons and aren't keeping up is they are more limited on the FSB then the PS3 is. This was demonstrated by you in a previous example where you gave some article about the Cell scaling linearly. If you read the same article the Athlons are also scaling linearily.

FSB improvements are coming for Intel, likely fall/winter this year. So the Cell while great for now, is of course going to be surpassed. It'll be interesting to see what IBM comes up with for the Cell. I'm doubtful the PS3 will get a upgrade to the next Cell before the PS4.

As for BeOS perhaps Haiku will turn out for the best. The pervausive multithreading was cool for us geeks. Certainly streaming multiple quicktime streams was very flashy, unfortunately it wasn't useful in the real world. Unfortunately the rest of the world wants applications which were lacking and of course the other BeOS faults...

Last edited by BrianK on 20-May-2008 at 07:35 PM.

Xbox360 to get a boost?
Unholy marriage?

Is “Viva Pinata DS” going to connect to the new “Viva Pinata” on the Xbox 360?

“We got it to work, but it was too late in the development cycle,” VP designer Justin Cook said, presumably talking about the cycle of the DS game. If only they’d thought of it sooner, he laughed. “It’s one of those things where you just kick yourself.”

..

Hmm ways for Microsoft to tap into a huge hand held market. Certainly more game sales is good for Nintendo too.

@BrianK

Quote:

Also note an SPE is not a core.

Correct the SPEs are much more than just CPU cores, it includes a full processor, they are basically independently operating systems on a chip. They can operate far more asynchronous, thus allowing much better to harvest near its peak performance.

Quote:

Okay and a quad core Xeon of today is ~200GFlops with 8 threads

Not even close. And the Xeon is a server/workstation targeted processor (just like the Cell of course, but the Cell's potential is far wider).

Quote:

the PS3 is ~205GFlops with 9 threads

The PS3's Cell is ~218 GFlops peak performance.

Some quotes:

"A single Cell SPE outperforms a 3.0 GHz single-core Xeon processor"

"IBM just published a paper about a financial app on Cell, their end result was a Dual Cell blade beating a dual Xeon (Woodcrest, quad core) by 11X on single precision, 3X on double precision.

That's 8 high end Core2 cores V's 16 SPEs - but the margin is way bigger than the difference in number of cores."

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=36058&page=11

Last edited by MikeB on 21-May-2008 at 10:18 AM.

@All

Not really interested myself but you guys might find this nice to read.

_________________
~
Everything you say will be misquoted and used against you..
~

@Seer

From the article:

Quote:

Similarly, with the expected loyalty of more than 120 million PlayStation 2 owners, Sony's PlayStation 3 was expected to be the next-gen winner

I think many fail to realize how the PS3 has been built for a long term future and definitely not for a sprint run early within the console's lifecycle.

The Nintendo Wii is a very different product which can easily co-exist with the PS3 within people's homes in the future. If Sony would have aimed to outsell the Wii, it would have put them into serious financial problems. Now the costs are under control well enough so that Sony tripled their profits for Sony's last fiscal year. The profitable PS2 sold well (much better than the 360) last year, this to compensate significantly for PS3 market investments.

The current PS3 did what it had to accomplish at this point, win Sony the Blu-Ray format war, quickly reducing the 360's headstart sales advantage and push developers towards more efficient and powerful game engine design.

The PS3 outsold the 360 1.85 million comparing equal timeframes by March 2008. Currently outselling the 360 by about 40K to 50K worldwide a week on average during slow months. This trend is likely to continue or facilitate considering the release of MGS4. This all at a higher entry price and more headstart months for the 360 for Europe and many other countries around the world and Microsoft releasing all their big name XBox sequels including Halo 3 early on within the console's lifecycle.

The current PS3 paves the way for the success of a future slimline PS3 and eventually a new Cell technology based PS4.

@ Thread

Regarding the RRoD situation, just an ordinary May 2008 month for the 360. Many brand new 360s dying on people:

http://forums.xbox.com/17947417/ShowPost.aspx

For consumers I think it would have been best for Microsoft to wait one year doing more R&D to have rock solid hardware and have a built-in Blu-Ray drive (cross platform devs would have more space to work with, would be pushed to optimise for predictable constant streaming and disc scratching complaints would be non-existant). From a technology standpoint IMO no HD DVD, from a market standpoint a prolonged format war wouldn't have been beneficial.

Microsoft would still have an advantage with regard to legacy game engine porting the first one or two years. A 20 GB harddrive should have been minimal by default for devs to cache onto, Live should IMO have been free. If any company can easily afford this it would be Microsoft. I don't think they would have done much worse in terms of sales. A Blu-Ray drive would be more expensive but RRoD is expensive as well.

Last edited by MikeB on 21-May-2008 at 12:45 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Now the costs are under control well enough so that Sony tripled their profits for Sony's last fiscal year.

A strange way to say that the PS3 loses money but less much such that Sony increased to tripling profits. Of course if no PS3 existed the profits would have been nearly $4B higher over the last couple of years.

Quote:

The profitable PS2 sold well (much better than the 360) last year

Or the PS3 - you always leave that out too. PS2 life is ending. Last half of the year the sales are down and profits are down ~6% in Q4 gaming divison because the PS2 sales are slowing. It would seem that the Wii is getting quite a few ex-PS2 owners due to price point, of course since PS3s can't play PS2 games any more Sony's lost a reason for PS2 users to stay.

Quote:

The current PS3 did what it had to accomplish at this point, win Sony the Blu-Ray format war, quickly reducing the 360's headstart sales advantage and push developers towards more efficient and powerful game engine design.

Yup Sony decided to push a format that wasn't gaming. Microsoft said with the 360 they are hoping to have a 7 year lifespan. IMO the only way they can do that is to add in a Blu-Ray player and prevent becoming the Dreamcast 2. The 360 still has lots of power left. GeOW used what they could but they learned how to do it better and undoubtably this would show in the GeOW2 sequel.

Quote:

The PS3 outsold the 360 1.85 million comparing equal timeframes by March 2008

Impressive for the last gen loser, Microsoft, to be so close with the last gen winner, Sony.

Quote:

Microsoft releasing all their big name XBox sequels including Halo 3 early on within the console's lifecycle

It's okay more sequels are coming. GeOW2 isn't a big name? And isn't MGS4 coming this summer? So isn't that earlier then Halo2, as in closer to launch?

Quote:

The current PS3 paves the way for the success of a future slimline PS3 and eventually a new Cell technology based PS4.

There may be a slimline 360. Like the PS3 the GPU and CPU will undoubtably shrink in size. Also Sony has switched CPUs each generation -- another Cell may happen but historically a different CPU has been taken. Recently Hirari was asked about the PS4. His response was it's too early to think about. Cell 2 will likely be an option to look at but they may again look around for other options. In the next 7 years the computer world will make even larger leaps then we saw in the last 7 years (Moore's law)

Quote:

Many brand new 360s dying on people

Undoubtably the 360 is going to have a higher rate of failure over it's lifetime. Clearly the new failure rates are significantly reduced over the launch failure rates. But they are still occuring.

Quote:

think it would have been best for Microsoft to wait one year doing more R&D

Microsoft's not a hardware company -- it showed. They are sure to take on your motto next gen.

Quote:

a market standpoint a prolonged format war wouldn't have been beneficial.

Format war schmore. Sales per person were comparable on both and neither one was burning up the charts. Blu-Ray still isn't burning up the charts in fact player sales are down early this year. The PS3 is of course benefiting from being the cheapest Blu-Ray player on the market. It'll be interesting to see what happens when Blu-Ray becomes cheaper then the PS3.

Also the world is big enough to sustain multiple formats. VCR came out in 1980 and now /w Blu-Ray we have nearly 50% more people on the planet. During the same time the GDP per person in the US, Europe and Asia has consistently grown. More people + more $$ per person is a much larger market. 2 formats were sustainable.

Quote:

A 20 GB harddrive should have been minimal by default for devs to cache onto, Live should IMO have been free.

The Wii clearly shows HDD was not a necessary thing to beat the PS3. Also, I disagree with you with launching Live for free. They clearly lead the market here. If a company has a market leading product the answer isn't give it away free. Sony will hopefully come close late 2008 w/ Home. But, if you think about this 'problems' they are all easily solveable. Again if the console is going to have a 7 year lifespan then they will need to make changes. HDD -- could easily become included on all models. Live? That heavily expensive $4/month service is a billing flag which can be set to NO. Purchased Live games are grew to 150MB and rumors are we'll see a bump to 350MB soon. All of these are simple issues which could be done now if Microsoft thought it'd improve their standing.

The question becomes one for MIcrosoft... Are you going to change the 360? Include Blu, include HDDs, perhaps have free Live? Does it make sense to sustain this generation to 7 years? OR will a bigger bump come from a new console sooner then 7 years? Financial profits will of course dictate part of this as will market direction. (BTW 7 year lifespan means 5 years left -- undoubtably the 3rd gen console construction is about to get ramped up if it isn't already)

But, as mentioned in a past PS3 discussion Sony's 10 years lifespan estimate doesn't mean they couldn't cross the PS4 over w/ the PS3 as they're doing with the PS3/PS2 now. MIcrosoft could obviously take the same stance. Cross the #2 gen and #3 gen at the same time. Put the big improvements in the #3 gen. People will upgrade and it'll have more power then the PS3.

Last edited by BrianK on 21-May-2008 at 03:40 PM.
Last edited by BrianK on 21-May-2008 at 03:36 PM.

@BrianK

Supposedly a combo gpu+cpu chip is in development to further shrink the costs and possibly size of the 360... So a "slimline" model is a definite possibility. Perhaps when that hardware launches, they can add the BR player.

As for the Wii, I'd like to see 2 or 4 GB of internal flash in a revision. That would make me buy a new one and actually purchase some WiiWare without worrying about space. A way to transfer "accounts" from one machine to the next would be great as well.