@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @fairlanefastback In Japan there never was a serious format war. As globablly adoption is taking place at a similar rate as was the case for DVD, I don't think HD DVD had that much effect from the grand perspective. You seem a bit upset? Why?

I'm not upset Mike. I'm disappointed in you given your former position here to be sure.

Your statement above still does not prove the statement you made that was questioned. Which was that you said "I think it's all just FUD" if someone said HD-DVD had a chance to kill Blu-ray in the past.

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@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Lets review the sequence of events. BrianK says internet bandwidth improvements are tracking Moore's law. You want to counter that, so you hit Google. You find an article speaking about the U.S. not improving in bandwidth as fast as some other nations. You use this to promote the idea that the U.S. improvements are not tracking Moore's law. But you don't show any evidence, at its slower rate or not that it does not track Moore's law.

You are wrong. I already knew internet bandwidth here in the Netherlands does not see exponential gains. Likewise I quoted the article which states the Japanese are only seeing a linear 20% average bandwidth increase per year.

It will take a while for the rest of the world to be on Japan's level and yet Blu-Ray is still performing well.

I think my points were clear and obvious, nothing for you to become so upset about.

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

"I think it's all just FUD"

I think Blu-Ray will certainly be around for the next decade, I don't doubt this one bit. IMO claiming Blu-Ray has the potential to become a dead format in the short to mid term is just spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt).

And I am entitled to my opinion.

@MikeB

Quote:

I already knew internet bandwidth here in the Netherlands does not see exponential gains.

BrianK did not say anything about internet bandwidth gains in the Netherlands, just as he had not said anything about them in his original post on it for the U.S. either.

Quote:

Likewise I quoted the article which states the Japanese are only seeing a linear 20% average bandwidth increase per year.

Nor did he point out Japan specifically in his original post on the subject.

When you questioned his original statement he courteously replied with the math he did to back up his statement, including the time period he is using (something your google found article does not), and then at that point he mentioned the U.S., saying by his math it does exceed Moore's law. His post is here:

http://tinyurl.com/cyhh7h (post #335)

So if you want to validly dispute you need to address him on the points he makes in that post.

Quote:

I think my points were clear and obvious, nothing for you to become so upset about.

Nice try Mike. That tactic is as old as the hills. You figure if you say it enough people will believe it, or that it might cause me to lose my cool and finally react that way. Baiting is not allowed here. Nor is trolling. So please stop.

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@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: "I think it's all just FUD" I think Blu-Ray will certainly be around for the next decade, I don't doubt this one bit. IMO claiming Blu-Ray has the potential to become a dead format in the short to mid term is just spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). And I am entitled to my opinion.

Nice try at the flip. What you said was you "think it's all just FUD" if someone during the format war expressed the opinion that "HD DVD (will end up) killing Blu-Ray and after HD DVD died, streaming would kill Blu-ray". So clearly, its you that said a particular opinion was not valid and instead was spreading FUD.

Meanwhile the public and the press during that time was quite unsure who would win. So on its face it was not FUD to possibly think HD DVD would end up beating out Blu-ray at the time.

And you continue to deny that it could be valid for someone to think the internet might kill Blu-ray in the mid term? Yet you speak about how you personally are entitled to any opinion you want to hold? Where is the fair play in that Mike?

You have 3 ARs, you've been given a forced vacation here in recent memory as well. I have not filled an AR for review by my colleagues here. I'm asking you, one again nicely, to change how you conduct yourself here. Please. Thank you.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 30-Apr-2009 at 10:26 PM.

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@fairlanefastback

I am totally wasted due to konginnedag (must have mis-typed my password 4 times) and still....

Talk to you tomorrow, when I provide you some insight.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @fairlanefastback I am totally wasted due to konginnedag (must have mis-typed my password 4 times) and still.... Talk to you tomorrow, when I provide you some insight.

I'm sure I don't need to remind you to keep your 'issues' with staff and moderation to PM, and not derail a console thread, do I? (just consider this part a friendly reminder/request, as you should know the TOS enough to not need any..)

I'd also request you leave your issues with both AW and it's staff off of other web sites, lest you may find others responding to you there, as well.

It's amusing how you believe 'insight' seems to only be held by you, though.

Regardless, enjoy your hangover/recovery...had a half week long one after coming back from a vacation recently..

Last edited by wegster on 01-May-2009 at 03:19 AM.

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Are we not done with the same silly arguments and flames yet??!

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @fairlanefastback Quote: "I think it's all just FUD" I think Blu-Ray will certainly be around for the next decade, I don't doubt this one bit. IMO claiming Blu-Ray has the potential to become a dead format in the short to mid term is just spreading FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt). And I am entitled to my opinion.

I got my (ASUS G1Sn) laptop's Blu-Ray-ROM/DVD-+RW combo OEM** for $64 USD.

**Built by Panasonic, model number UJ-120.

Last edited by Hammer on 01-May-2009 at 11:59 AM.

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@fairlanefastback

I think it is safe to say now though that Blu-Ray is here to stay for many years to come... I suspect there will be various iterations of the software/hardware standard... here's to the upcoming 400GB disks...

Sure now, M$ would need to seriously think of adding this tech to any future console they make; unless they feel digital distribution is the only way to go.

The impending release of 3D films for the home means you would, in all sense and purposes, encode a dual 1080p stream for true 3D stereoscopic movies to become a reality... that is if everything ought to remain in HD from medium to eye...

I think it is all rather exciting :)

Q!

"i am home"

Last edited by QuBe on 02-May-2009 at 04:54 AM.
Last edited by QuBe on 02-May-2009 at 04:54 AM.

@MikeB

USA stuff:
Spring 08 -- Forrester Research reports online music sales to overtake CDs by 2012.

Spring 08 -- iTunes claims the spot as the #2 music vendor.

Fall 08 -- Atlantic Records report online sales have overtaken CDs.

Spring 09 -- Virgin closes stores in NY and SF citing the reason as online music sales have overtaken CD sales. Though note I don't believe any research institutes back up the overtake. It is clear however that online sales are serious competition to the bricks and motar.

I find this interesting as many online music is of lower quality than a CD. It appears the collectors are more numerous than the audiophiles. Afterall SACD and DVD-A were basically flops. Which does bring us to Sony's new Blu-CD. This is stupid! It's CD recording quality w/ blue laser. Will the market add money to Sony and not increase audio quality? Time shall tell.

As online sales are proving worthy contenders, I bet 2009 may well strip predictions of online's gains for music. With the down turn in the economy people are more apt tobe more conservative. People will buy the 10 songs they want over the mulitple CDs to get the same 10 songs.

As you stated US sees 6-8Mbps downloads. Many in Europe and Japan are even faster to the home. Certainly in the last year technology has come that will increase the bandwidth to the home even more. As this gets cheaper more people will have enough connectivity to download HD movies in real time. Certainly in the last year technology has improved for digital processing. As this increases we'll see increased use of compression algorithms, especially in the lossless category. The combination will push HD video into more people's homes.

And of course all other media has ended it's lives. Blu-Ray is no different. You're just spreading FUD about our further digital processing and ever growing connectivity.

@BrianK

Regarding music CDs, I haven't bought a music CD for many years, how would a CD fit into my tiny comfortable MP3 player? (yes, ridiculous question in case that weird dude wants to intervene)

Quote:

And of course all other media has ended it's lives. Blu-Ray is no different. You're just spreading FUD about our further digital processing and ever growing connectivity.

You misunderstand almost everything stated, yes online services will advance further and there will be much progress with regard toconnectivity over the years to come. Why would one state the obvious (unless there's some kind of global disaster looming)?

However your timing is way off (back in the 50s they imagined people having their personal spaceships by the year 2000, of course that was too optimistic ), likewise you're too absolute, something ideal for someone may be a hassle for someone else.

Blu-Ray will not be killed this upcoming decade, not by internet advances, nor by a yet unreleased unproven new media format. Blu-Ray for mass storage is advancing as well. Some think current technology is already designed for 1TB discs:

http://www.t3.com/news/pioneer%27s-1...-in-ps3?=37463

The global industry is fully backing Blu-Ray disc.

@MikeB

Sony Computer Europe's President David Reeves once predicted the PS3 would be #1 this gen by March 08. He missed the target. He's leaving Sony (no relation AFAIK to the previous comment) and on his way out he now estimates the PS3 is 3-5 years out from being #1 this generation. LINK

My problem with this is simple. If it really takes 5 years what is the competition going to do in that time. Does he really expect to not see a Wii2 or Xbox3 by 2012, let alone 2014? Recently I commented that the PS3 well may prove to be the low cost leader against the next gen of consoles. I see his statement overlaying my thought nicely. (Note: I'm not saying I think he'd back my 'low cost against next gen' statement.) Just an observation on how one can see the game being played out by 2011 and Sony hoping to be the #1 3-years later.



As for Blu-Ray. You have to admit the competition is much harder in the marketplace than it was for the DVD. We have HDTVs with built in HD-DVRs. We have increasing HD DVR sales. We have increasing online usage. We have new larger format DVD. We have multiple HD streaming boxes and multiple services to choose from even Sony themselves. Toshiba showed HD movies on memory cards. I know you feel it's FUD but certainly there are more guns pointing against Blu-Ray than were ever pointed against DVD.

@BrianK

Regarding sales, IMO that's not the most important aspect from the consumer perspective. Outselling the PS1 as is currently stil the case would IMO certainly be a great achievement for a high spec console.

IMO much more important is the quality of the games which are being released, like the NES has significantly outperformed the Amiga 500, the NES had many horrible versions compared to on the Amiga.

Regarding DVR, I think this should be applauded, just like other alternatives (also supported by the PS3). VCRs already had the ability to playback copies and record TV broadcastings, yet that wasn't the main reason for its demise in Holywood. It's still not completely dead, there is already a Blu-Ray/VHS combi player released by Panasonic.

There will always be people who prefer something solid in their hands coming supplied in a nice box (of course most retailers and rental store services will put their power behind this), the alternatives should IMO be looked at as value add for owning a HDTV. Like Aminet didn't near completely kill disk based Amiga software development (that was due to the Commodore bankruptcy and piracy).

Actually commercial Amiga software development could benefit from Aminet, through game demos and downloadable additional (such as user created) content. Similarly the internet benefits Blu-Ray as well with added functionality, or for example through Playstation Pulse or Playstation Qore on the PSN.

@MikeB

Quote:

Regarding sales, IMO that's not the most important aspect from the consumer perspective.

Sales are an important aspect from the consumer perspective. A more common platform means.. More likely to bring games to a friend's house. Typically a lower cost console and games for a more common console. More used games at lower costs on the market. Typically the sales leader, example PS2, has many more exclusive games.

Sales is of course important to corporate profits both the company and the 3rd party game makers.

Quote:

Outselling the PS1 as is currently stil the case would IMO certainly be a great achievement for a high spec console.

I don't consider this as great as you make it out to be. The consumer market for consoles has grown. As an example all 3 consoles are outselling the PS1. Undoubtably this is due to the populatrity and growth within the gaming marketplace. Since the # of interested consumers has grown I don't think it 'a great acheivement' to outsell the 2 previous generations which had an overall smaller interested parties. Simply put gaming has become more mainstream. I think it'd be sad to not see a console outsell the PS1.

Quote:

IMO much more important is the quality of the games which are being released, like the NES has significantly outperformed the Amiga 500, the NES had many horrible versions compared to on the Amiga.

An interesting comparison. Here we see not only a lower quality but, horrible, gaming NES against the Amiga 500. I believe the NES sold slightly less than the Amiga 500. Yet the higher quality approach produced a product in the marketplace that is, for all practial purposes, dead. The lower quality approach has provided for a profitable company that even now is leading the race with the lower quality, graphically at least, approach.

http://www.joystiq.com/2009/05/04/red-steel-2-promo-video-lands-on-youtube/#continued

Red Steel 2, the sequel to the #1 3rd party launch title that features FPS gameplay and sword play is coming fot the holiday season.

This video may be just a target render...but looks good.

The original used the Unreal 2.5 engine.

@BrianK

Quote:

Sales are an important aspect from the consumer perspective.

Demographics are just as important and the PS3 is a very common console, in just over two years after global release it already outsold all Amiga models combined plus the life time sales of CDTV, Sega Dreamcast, Panasonic/Goldstar/Sanyo 3DO, Atari Lynx, Philips CDi and SNK NeoGeo!

Quote:

I believe the NES sold slightly less than the Amiga 500.

Not by a long shot. The NES outsold the Amiga 500 at least 15 fold.

The Amiga 500 was far more capable and powerful, thus a lot more exciting for developers to work with. That's an important reason why there were far more commercial Amiga 500 games released.

I would never have traded my Amiga for a NES back then and similarly I would never trade my PS3 for a Wii, but vice versa absolutely.

@MikeB

Quote:

I would never have traded my Amiga for a NES back then and similarly I would never trade my PS3 for a Wii, but vice versa absolutely.

No doubt, who would do that, considering the price.
Only a person would trade like that

You get 2 Wii machines for the price of one PS3.

So, should the conclusion be: Wii = double the fun for your money compared to PS3

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@tomazkid

Unless you are really poor, pricing isn't that much of an issue for the average mature gamer in developed countries. Many even own multiple systems (I imagine storage space being more of an issue for many).

I mean if I would have to be on a deserted island or in prison, left with just an optimal PS3 configuration and all the lastest games, I would take that instead of the same situation but stuck with a Wii. (This even without an internet connection and also if there are a few gamers there to play with)

A more correct conclusion would be the PS3 is worth twice as much as a Wii from a market value perspective. Like a milion euro house is worth more than a small appartment, nomatter if more people live in small appartments.

Last edited by MikeB on 05-May-2009 at 05:22 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 05-May-2009 at 05:21 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @tomazkid Unless you are really poor, pricing isn't that much of an issue for the average mature gamer in developed countries. Many even own multiple systems (I imagine storage space being more of an issue for many). I mean if I would have to be on a deserted island or in prison, left with just an optimal PS3 configuration and all the lastest games, I would take that instead of the same situation but stuck with a Wii. (This even without an internet connection and also if there are a few gamers there to play with) A more correct conclusion would be the PS3 is worth twice as much as a Wii from a market value perspective. Like a milion euro house is worth more than a small appartment, nomatter if more people live in small appartments.

With the extra money left over from purchasing the Wii instead of a PS3, I'll also take the TV to use it with on that deserted island. ;)

(ignoring the electricity requirement ofcourse)

@Lou

Or plenty of games, for what matters...

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