@BrianK

Yea, the Nvidia RSX GPU and even VRAM is normally blocked by the hypervisor. But some developers have managed to hack their way and even fewer have gotten a blessing from Sony for unfettered access to the hardware from Linux.

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 24-Sep-2008 at 06:01 AM.

Some NPD figures for software up to Aug 2008:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3795/2008s_topselling_games_so_far_.php?page=1
Quote:

Both the Xbox 360 and PS3 top 5 software lists are dwarfed by the figures for the Wii's top sellers. Starting with Super Smash Bros. Brawl above 3.2 million and ending with Guitar Hero III around 1.3 million, the Wii's top 5 games of the year account for somewhere between 11 and 12 million units of software.

...but remember, no one is buying games for the Wii, they are just playing WiiSports...

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: Yea, the Nvidia RSX GPU and even VRAM is normally blocked by the hypervisor. But some developers have managed to hack their way and even fewer have gotten a blessing from Sony for unfettered access to the hardware from Linux.

Thanks for helping me set that straight.

IF the AmigaOS were ported it could probably use some SPEs for video drivers and not rely upon the RSX. While not as powerful as using the whole power of the console itself, I'd think it'd still be a compelling Amiga solution.

I think the question remains for MikeB's statement... SPE, how were they used and would we see a difference? If a recompile has to be done to gain their use then likely, as most developers are gone, we won't see the software sped up as much as it could have been.

@BrianK

A recompile would have to be done anyway to optimize for the InOrder executing nature of Cell's PPE...otherwise it would barely outperform an A1 with a 1.7Ghz G4...

@Lou

The PPE on the PS3 can handle out-of-order executions, it is simply a POWER5 based core designed with an addition memory controller or (EIB Elementary Interconnect Bus) to process the instruction sent by the in-order SPEs. Some of the most fundamental information concerning the CELL BE can be found here.

However, some of the libraries in OS4.1 would have to be re-compiled anyway to handle the G5 instruction set.

Last edited by ReverseGTR on 24-Sep-2008 at 07:11 PM.
Last edited by ReverseGTR on 24-Sep-2008 at 07:09 PM.

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @Lou The PPE on the PS3 can handle out-of-order executions, it is simply a POWER5 based core designed with an addition memory controller or (EIB Elementary Interconnect Bus) to process the instruction sent by the in-order SPEs. Some of the most fundamental information concerning the CELL BE can be found here. However, some of the libraries in OS4.1 would have to be re-compiled anyway to handle the G5 instruction set.

I say port to Wii!

@BrianK

With regards to the PowerStation, hardware... it does look good however there is another piece of hardware worth looking at that includes CELL + RSX GPU unblocked... and that is this...

http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/sony/bcu-100.shtml

or

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/ZEGO/ZEGO.shtml

also... http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/200808/08-095E/index.html

The Sony Bcu-100. Whilst it is not in a desktop form factor, it is a completely open system. Os4 could be made to run on this and have full access to RSX... can you imagine the demos on this thing once coders bang the CELL and RSX...

Funnily enough I am actually considering purchasing one of these and simply putting it on my desk, Pizza Box style, and resting my LCD on top of. Its a full 64bit computer with Terrasoft's Yellow Dog Linux, but this time fully accelerated - not like the cobbled PS3!

I could then run an emulated Amiga environment within my YelloDog Linux running on this beast. Obviously all the open source software, games etc will work very well as this has RSX acceleration... Why not OS4 then!!!

Some pdf's...

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/ZEGO/files/Cell_Computing_Whitepaper.pdf
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/ZEGO/files/BCU-100_Whitepaper.pdf

IF ONLY...

Q!

"aLL RoAds LeAd ToO HoMe"

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @Lou The PPE on the PS3 can handle out-of-order executions, it is simply a POWER5 based core designed

PPE doesn’t reorder instructions prior to execution like Alpha EV6’s out-of-order standard. i.e. scan the instruction stream and reorder instruction stream prior dispatching to execution pipelines.

PPE can out-of-order load instructions, but the core itself is in-order.

PPE is not based on Power5 i.e. note the instruction issue and instruction retirement difference. If we use your logic; can one say Intel Atom is based on Intel Core 2 since they have the same instruction set. This is a fallacy and you have not taken into account the actual micro-architecture’s implementation.

Quote:

with an addition memory controller or (EIB Elementary Interconnect Bus) to process the instruction sent by the in-order SPEs. Some of the most fundamental information concerning the CELL BE can be found here. However, some of the libraries in OS4.1 would have to be re-compiled anyway to handle the G5 instruction set.

CELL’s PPE @3.2Ghz performs like a PowerPC 970 @1.6Ghz. PPE issues 2 instructions per cycle while PowerPC 970 issues 4 instructions + 1 branch per cycle. This basic 101 CPU micro-architecture should indicate to you that PPE is nothing like a server/workstation class CPU.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Sep-2008 at 12:11 PM.
Last edited by Hammer on 26-Sep-2008 at 12:06 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @ReverseGTR Quote: ReverseGTR wrote: @Lou The PPE on the PS3 can handle out-of-order executions, it is simply a POWER5 based core designed PPE doesn’t reorder instructions prior to execution like Alpha EV6’s out-of-order standard. i.e. scan the instruction stream and reorder instruction stream prior dispatching to execution pipelines. PPE can out-of-order load instructions, but the core itself is in-order. PPE is not based on Power5 i.e. note the instruction issue and instruction retirement difference. If we use your logic; can one say Intel Atom is based on Intel Core 2 since they have the same instruction set. This is a fallacy and you have not taken into account the actual micro-architecture’s implementation. Quote: with an addition memory controller or (EIB Elementary Interconnect Bus) to process the instruction sent by the in-order SPEs. Some of the most fundamental information concerning the CELL BE can be found here. However, some of the libraries in OS4.1 would have to be re-compiled anyway to handle the G5 instruction set. CELL’s PPE @3.2Ghz performs like a PowerPC 970 @1.6Ghz. PPE issues 2 instructions per cycle while PowerPC 970 issues 4 instructions + 1 branch per cycle. This basic 101 CPU micro-architecture should indicate to you that PPE is nothing like a server/workstation class CPU.

How does the Wii's cpu (750CL-based) compare to the PPE? Just curious. Thanks.

@Hammer

It would have been nice if you included a source. But you are for the most part right and I should have stated it had a POWER5 based instruction set.

@Lou

However, another fallacy is that most people assume that software not optimized for the CELL BE exclusively uses the PPE and nothing more. Which then ignores the memory controller, IO and other elements on the chip aside from the SPEs. Doing that is an unfair comparison considering the Wii's 750CL contains other arbitrators on chip such as an improved FPU and added instructions to communicate with the GPU.

But if you want to just compare the cores I would still think the PS3's PPE has a slight edge over it since it does indeed support VMX/Altivec.

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @Hammer It would have been nice if you included a source. But you are for the most part right and I should have stated it had a POWER5 based instruction set. @Lou However, another fallacy is that most people assume that software not optimized for the CELL BE exclusively uses the PPE and nothing more. Which then ignores the memory controller, IO and other elements on the chip aside from the SPEs. Doing that is an unfair comparison considering the Wii's 750CL contains other arbitrators on chip such as an improved FPU and added instructions to communicate with the GPU. But if you want to just compare the cores I would still think the PS3's PPE has a slight edge over it since it does indeed support VMX/Altivec.

The Wii's cpu also support SIMD instructions. The GC version had 37 instructions, the Wii's is rumored to have all the ones the G5 has.

Also, don't blame Nintendo for putting the memory controller on the SoC Gpu... Blame Sony for not originally thinking they even needed a gpu...and thinking Cell was a full SoC solution...

NOTE: The Wii's Hollywood System-on a-Chip Gpu solution also includes a full ARM cpu core. Nintendo has been using ARM cores since the GB...and into the DS...

Last edited by Lou on 26-Sep-2008 at 07:47 PM.

@Lou

I don't blame the engineering teams of either company that did a great job in designing these consoles, I just blame ignorant marketing.

NOTE: Despite all the features that are on the SoC the Wii still needs an ATi Hollywood GPU in part to get the graphics being projected just as the PS3 also relies on the Nvidia RSX and XBOX360 has the ATi Xenos...

Lets keep this discussion mainly technical without turning it into a flamewar. I respect and am in awe of the technical merits of all three consoles and if OS4.1 was ported to the Wii I would welcome it with just as much open arms as I would if it were the PS3.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: @Hammer How does the Wii's cpu (750CL-based) compare to the PPE? Just curious. Thanks.

PowerPC 750 class processor issues 3 instructions (2 int, 1 fp) + 1 branch per cycle, relativity short pipeline, out-of-order processing (not just on instruction loads). The Gekko includes 2x32bit (64 bit) SIMD.

PowerPC 750 is like Pentium III (minus SIMD for non-GC/Wii use) In terms of micro-architecture approach. Pentium Pro/Pentium II/Pentium III/Pentium M are also 3 instruction issue per cycle, relativity short pipeline, out-of-order processing.

PPE issues two instruction per cycle, it can only out-of-order process on instruction loads and it includes 4x32bit (128 bit) VMX unit.

Last edited by Hammer on 26-Sep-2008 at 10:45 PM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@QuBe

Quote:

With regards to the PowerStation, hardware... it does look good however there is another piece of hardware worth looking at that includes CELL + RSX GPU unblocked... and that is this... http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/sony/bcu-100.shtml

For you perhaps I can't afford the $200,000 for a blade chassis and blade for AmigaOS.


Quote:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/ext/ZEGO/ZEGO.shtml

If it's price competitive this might be the option. The question is why the RSX and Cell on that? Clearly there are better GPUs on the market today. How about an 8800 and Cell for example?

Run and Amiga in YDL on Cell? I don't really see the point. We have Amigaforever now and it does a good job on x86 which is easier and likey less expensive to source. Hey but if someone wants to do it then go for it.

@Hammer

Quote:

Hammer wrote: @Lou Quote: Lou wrote: @Hammer How does the Wii's cpu (750CL-based) compare to the PPE? Just curious. Thanks. PowerPC 750 class processor issues 3 instructions (2 int, 1 fp) + 1 branch per cycle, relativity short pipeline, out-of-order processing (not just on instruction loads). The Gekko includes 2x32bit (64 bit) SIMD. PowerPC 750 is like Pentium III (minus SIMD for non-GC/Wii use) In terms of micro-architecture approach. Pentium Pro/Pentium II/Pentium III/Pentium M are also 3 instruction issue per cycle, relativity short pipeline, out-of-order processing. PPE issues two instruction per cycle, it can only out-of-order process on instruction loads and it includes 4x32bit (128 bit) VMX unit.

So is your opinion that it can "hang" with Cell's PPE or not?

I can't wait until developers start using Hollywood's ARM core as a co-processor for things like free full-screen (granted 480p) anti-aliasing...as Hollywood can easily double, triple or quadruple buffer video output. Prior to display "Starlet" (as it's been dubbed by the homebrew community who discovered it) could do a quick AA pass on a frame prior to it being displayed while the actual gpu is processing the next frame...

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @Lou I don't blame the engineering teams of either company that did a great job in designing these consoles, I just blame ignorant marketing. NOTE: Despite all the features that are on the SoC the Wii still needs an ATi Hollywood GPU in part to get the graphics being projected just as the PS3 also relies on the Nvidia RSX and XBOX360 has the ATi Xenos... Lets keep this discussion mainly technical without turning it into a flamewar. I respect and am in awe of the technical merits of all three consoles and if OS4.1 was ported to the Wii I would welcome it with just as much open arms as I would if it were the PS3.

I hear you but Hollywood, by itself, is a full SoC as it does contain a cpu core as well. An ARM9 dubbed "Starlet" by the homebrew community. It handles the Wii's encryption algorithms when reading from disk and it can be programmed to do other things as well. This core was not present in the Gamecube's Flipper.

@Lou

From what I can tell Starlet is primarily the IO, bootloading, security decrypting (I guess to distinguish certain devices from others) as well as sound and video encoder among other background task.

I can theorize that Nintendo desired such a solution so developers can easily sync sounds with certain motions from the Wiimote as well as the distinguishing sounds that are only reserved to be projected from the controller. Among other interests developers can coordinate between the software and Wii. It is all a part of Nintendo's solution for developers to easily keep up with their high standards for gameplay which include among other things a constant 60fps at 480p.

I suppose certain software can take advantage of it in a different manner but developers should be careful not to grant access to tampering too much or else it may just end up wiping it like the latest alpha release of Ubuntu did with certain Intel network cards.

@Lou

Quote:

Lou wrote: (SNIP for space) So is your opinion that it can "hang" with Cell's PPE or not?

"The PPU is a dual-issue, in-order processor with dual-thread support"
" In order to improve performance from its in-order pipeline, the PPE utilizes delayed-execution pipelines and allows limited out-of-order execution of load instructions"
Refer to http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/

Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2008 at 03:19 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2008 at 03:17 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2008 at 03:15 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 27-Sep-2008 at 03:13 AM.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@ReverseGTR

Quote:

ReverseGTR wrote: @Hammer It would have been nice if you included a source. But you are for the most part right and I should have stated it had a POWER5 based instruction set.

Refer to http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/power/library/pa-cellperf/
on PPE.

_________________
Amiga 1200 (rev 1D1, KS 3.2, PiStorm32/RPi CM4/Emu68)
Amiga 500 (rev 6A, ECS, KS 3.2, PiStorm/RPi 4B/Emu68)
Ryzen 9 7900X, DDR5-6000 64 GB RAM, GeForce RTX 4080 16 GB

@Lou

Quote:

A recompile would have to be done anyway to optimize for the InOrder executing nature of Cell's PPE...otherwise it would barely outperform an A1 with a 1.7Ghz G4...

Definitely true.

Though in the course of things not optimizing isn't that bad. PS3s are readily available and inexpensive compared to an A1. This means it's cheaper and easier for people to get an Amiga. (That is of course if some enterprising company stepped up and sold the OS for the PS3.) My vote for the name of this system... Adam.