@MikeB

Quote:

Rockstar co-founder: "The 360 games have a certain look to them; PS3 games have a certain look to them. I like the way [the PS3] renders."

It should be noted that this is also true for PC Hardware.
An nVidia card will produce a slightly different image than an equivalent ATI card or even a different model of nVidia card.

Sounds like Rockstar severly f*cked up with their game code:

Mainly 60 GB PS3 units seem to be affected, but also some 360s:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=288359

Patch is coming out tomorrow for both platforms. Very unprofessional... And this for the most important game released so far. Luckily 40GB and 80 GB PS3s don't seem to be experiencing the lockup issues, so people buying a bundle won't get an awful out of the box experience.

Come on Rockstar, it's a console with very limited amounts of spec variations... How could you fail so badly?

And this after releasing a buggy crashy Bully for the 360...

http://news.teamxbox.com/xbox/15906/Rockstar-Bully-Xbox-360-to-Get-Patch-Soon/
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=249455

Rockstar on the recently released Bully for the 360:

"It appears that some older 360s are experiencing frame-rate issues, freezes and other problems. You have our word that we never experienced any of this in QA - in any of our offices or at Microsoft,"

"I am horrified, and we are now working around the clock to rectify this situation. Thanks to Neo-Gaf for bringing this matter to our attention. We love our games and put a huge amount of energy and care into making them all that they can be."

According to Houser, Rockstar "would never shove anything out the door - we never have and never will". He added, "We apologise to everyone affected for the inconvenience."

Last edited by MikeB on 03-May-2008 at 04:10 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 03-May-2008 at 04:10 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Luckily 40GB and 80 GB PS3s don't seem to be experiencing the lockup issues, so people buying a bundle won't get an awful out of the box experience.

There has been reports of 40GB consoles experiencing the issue.

Quote:

Patch is coming out tomorrow for both platforms. Very unprofessional... And this for the most important game released so far.

Welcome to the new console gaming model. We saw Sony's console OS with bugs and they were patched. We have seen other games patch their problems. There's good and bad here. Obviously not everyone was impacted so it seems it's not a 'huge' miss. Those with problems can get them fixed w/o the headache of testing and returning games and consoles. The download a patch model is here to stay.

@BrianK

Sony published games like Super Stardust HD, Resistance, Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank: TOD, Motorstorm, Warhawk, etc don't have these kind of issues upon release. They are all pretty rock solid apart from very minor imperfection, nothing to the extend of locking up systems. The issue reported here often already occurs during install!

It's some 3rd party games which sometimes require patching. But I think this is the most severe case of lack of testing on the PS3 yet.

@Bit7

Quote:

Bit7 wrote: @Lou No. Let me take a more extreme example. Say that the game used 360p (exactly half the resolution). If the shot was taken from the exact same distance you would see the same size sign (relative to the available area) but it would be half the resolution. (try changing the resolution in a PC 3D game if you don't believe me). When you upscale that 360p image to 720p you would then see the exact same number of pixels in the sign. Only the upscaled one would look very blurred. BTW. I am not saying that the game is definitely using 640p. Only that the level of filtering present in the screen shot makes it plausible.

But the facts are that the games run naitevely at those resolutions I mentioned and get scaled up to 1080p if that's what the user wishes.
So if the camera position is at the same exact place when these screenshots were taken, the 360 image should have a higher pixel density on the same 1080p screen. The burger should be roughly 28x28 not 25x25 even though in a 1080p screen the tv would use up an area of 42x42 to scale either image to.

@MikeB

Quote:

Sony published games like Super Stardust HD, Resistance, Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank: TOD, Motorstorm, Warhawk, etc don't have these kind of issues upon release. They are all pretty rock solid apart from very minor imperfection, nothing to the extend of locking up systems.

Don't forget this game got Sony's steal of approval. So if it was unprofessional on the developers part it was unprofessional for Sony to not test thoroughly before stamping their name on the game. BTW Uncharted had freezing reports as does Resistance. GIYF

@BrianK

And Microsoft's seal of approval (?), even after Bully. Best testament of Microsoft's seal of approval is of course 360 itself. And the 'fantasic' Windows Vista?

Uncharted and Resistance are overall rock solid, maybe an isolated incident here and there but nothing on this scale percentage wise. Of course minor PS3 hardware issues you dragged forward to the defense of the 360 hardware problems as well, one relates to issues within industry standards, the other are issues multiple times above industry accepted standards. It's all about seeing things in context.

@Lou

Quote:

the 360 image should have a higher pixel density on the same 1080p screen

That's not how it works for most scaler chips, the most basic scaler would simply enlarge the image to fit the screen. (more pixels to represent one source pixel, will look like larger pixels) However most scaler chips have other more advanced abilities, for example add additional averaged pixels, so the end result is the same amount of pixels, the amount of pixels native to the display.

And it may well be both versions are actually rendering in the same resolution anyway. Scaler chips are often designed to enhance image quality and thus hide signs of scaling.

It appears a large percentage of GTA IV problems can be solved by disabling the internet connection. A temporary fix for the single player game until a patch comes out.

@MikeB
It's just not that big of a deal. I bought the game, experienced the 'freeze' a single time in 10+ hours of play. No big deal.

If it were, will you next attack literally every piece of software ever released? They all have some bugs, somewhere, OS4, OS X, and pretty much every OS and app.

R&C wasn't 'bug-free' either, as you should recall about the 'vendor problem.' That was far more annoying.

No comment really on hardware - the 360 RROD was a big deal. Haven't had any issues with either PS3, although they also do a fair amount of patching via firmware updates.

Last edited by wegster on 03-May-2008 at 08:15 PM.

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@wegster

Just because you and me haven't had severe problems, it doesn't mean others aren't experiencing far more severe issues. I have read enough about the issues, I look further than just my personal experience. IMO the GTA IV problems are too significant and widespread to be wiped under the carpet.

Note I love GTA games, including this one but I won't let this cloud my opinion. IMO Rockstar did a bad job beta-testing, most severe case of testing neglect I have heard about for a PS3 game so far.

@MikeB

Yet you discounted the R&C:TOC vendor issue, which others have had.

I'm aware others are having issues, similar to mine with GTA. If there's a patch SOON, it's not a huge deal; it's a fact of software.

Yes, QA should have been more thorough, with testing on all PS3 variants. But, it happens.

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@wegster

Browse this thread for reference with regard R&C: TOD:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=198255

@MikeB

You seem to be getting it -- 'Welcome to the new console gaming model.' -- this model as I described with examples is one that manufactures rely on the downloadable patch ability to 'fix' something that's wrong. The job of the business is to make a profit. If they view shipping early and fixing will make them more profit then that is what we are going to get.

Differnt versions of PS2s have their own set of games which don't work. Sony has continued to blame the developers for bad software even as they approved the software for their console. I wonder if the PS3 is going to have this same problem? The first gen PS3, 60GB model, is different then the 80 or 40GB models. Developers need to test on each revision of console to ensure these differences don't hurt them. But, it is good for businesses that this gen download patches are available. This prevents the huge cost of recalls by issuing a patch fix to resolve issues and saves them costs of having to eat a big mistake.

@MikeB

Quote:

Browse this thread for reference with regard R&C: TOD:

Sorry but simply google Rachet Clank freezes or issues and you will find people that have had issues with this software. Or look back in the threads here and you'll find the links to YouTube pages showing the in game bugs.

Bug makes Rachet & Clank freeze and prevents game saves. I won't do more. If you want to find freezes and issues simply use google they are out there.

Oh and some can't install
--"With specific amounts of free space on your drive, you may see a screen that tells you have insufficient space to create game data even though there is plenty of free space on your drive." He remains decidedly non-specific regarding said "specific amounts," but at least the man provides a workaround. If you encounter the problem, "either delete or add about 500MB of data to your hard drive and the problem will go away." You'll know you've won when you can actually play the game

Sorry for the dupe.

Last edited by BrianK on 04-May-2008 at 12:25 AM.

@BrianK

That micro thread on a major website is unimpressive, I can find similar or far worse threads regarding any million seller 360 game out there.

Actually the most interesting comment by the thread starter was this one:

"Glad to hear you have been problem free, honestly I am nervous about playing it until Isomniac releases a patch for it. Too many bad 360 memories, with glitches that erased my saves and what not. just in case you can't tell the names of the sites in my first post are links to the articles on the issues."

The NeoGAF thread is far more representative, as it's a far more general thread. You get a far better perspective on what the overall gaming experience is and how common a problem is. In R&C: TOD's case, rarely problems have been reported.

@MikeB

Quote:

That micro thread on a major website is unimpressive, I can find similar or far worse threads regarding any million seller 360 game out there.

Mike instead of attempting to make this a tit for tat instead look at your statements. You claim rock solid performance of games. I've included a couple links to show you that others are having problems with these games. Yes the issues aren't as widespread as GTA but they do exist for a subset of users.

Quote:

The NeoGAF thread is far more representative

And your favorite site for confirmation bias. If it's not at NeoGAF, even if on Sony Playstation boards, it just doesn't exist right? Come on Mike NeoGAF != world. While NeoGAF is a generally good sites there (psst) are others.

@BrianK

Quote:

Mike instead of attempting to make this a tit for tat instead look at your statements. You claim rock solid performance of games. I've included a couple links to show you that others are having problems with these games. Yes the issues aren't as widespread as GTA but they do exist for a subset of users.

C'mon, Brian, you know better than to waste time arguing MikeB. He puts things into his own view of the world (collecting what supports it and disregarding what does not) and you can exhaust all reasonable avenues of discussion and fact - and still not make a dent into how he sees things.

As for the quite reasonable point that the model of gaming delivery has changed, I agree. The ability to fix games must on some level come to affect the decision to ship, at least on subconsciously. It is a whole lot easier to issue a patch via Internet than to recall a game or ship replacement discs.

I'm with wegster thinking that this is pretty OK. Not the best of situations, but pretty OK. Of course sad to see bugs in any game on any console, and very annoying if games crash and you loose progress or whatnot, but if it is fixed via a software update all that annoyance is soon forgotten.

As for the now age-old question which is better, PS3 or Xbox 360, I wish I was seeing more appreciable difference in things other than disc size or what kind of audio bitrate one can produce. PS3 certainly has more 1080p games, some of it due to practice - as in, I mean, the fact that more PS3 developments have been aimed at 1080p whereas 720p has been seen as the sweet-spot in Xbox 360 developments (cross-platforms opting for the latter even on PS3) - I guess more than definitely better performance - and cross-platform titles don't seem to benefit from any inherent performance difference, since PS3 requires so much specialization to get it to play ball. (E.g. GTA4 apparently rendered in 640p on PS3 instead of 1080p or something and Xbox 360 actually getting the higher resolution of actual 720p...)

When PS3 finally gets the Dual Shock 3 here in my locale as well, the overall feeling is that both systems are perhaps even annoyingly close to one another. In time the online features on PS3 will look much like those on the Xbox 360 (where Xbox 360 currenty still shines ahead), OTOH much of the games are very similar in performance - only names of the available titles differ. The systems will likely continue to go tit for tat for quite some time, some better there, the other bettering in something else. An objective observer may be hard-pressed to see for example such a difference as was clear between PS2 and Xbox 1 least generation, unless cross-platform titles can better benefit from PS3s power like cross-platform titles were able to e.g. benefit from Xbox 1's anti-aliasing skill compared to PS2.

I wouldn't be surprised if PS3 is the better performer in the long run, but if this difference is hugely appreciable or clear-cut remains to be seen. The bigger learning curve on PS3 perhaps masking some of this benefit, or perhaps having to bypass the less than stellar GPU another. I'm sure MikeB would like to contend all this with a barrage of links and quotes, but I have been reading up as well and this is how I see it. PS3 is probably the higher powered one, but a year down the road I still don't see the Xbox 360 devastator that was announced way back then. It all comes back to games: which system has the best games and which has the versions people enjoy most. Both are certainly capable of producing some excellent entertainment.

The only system that is truly different is Wii. I continue to be tempted by it, now once again reading all the Mario Kart reviews. :) Xbox 360 and PS3 in my system have really lost much of their system-specific appeal and now both are just game consoles, each getting a game here and there. They are very similar.

Did I make the right call buying both? Probably not. I could well do with just one, but history going as it went - Xbox 360 coming out so early and me wanting HD - and then PS3 tempting so much as well. If I was now buying just one system maybe I'd try to choose just one or the other, might well be either one. The only system that I know I coulnd't live alone with is the Wii, but it still tempts me as a third console... but two is plenty for me (in addition to the second Xbox 360, PS2 and PSP... :).

Not that that necessarily is all that bad, just how I see it.

Last edited by jtsiren on 04-May-2008 at 04:54 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 04-May-2008 at 04:37 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 04-May-2008 at 04:28 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 04-May-2008 at 04:25 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I wouldn't be surprised if PS3 is the better performer in the long run, but if this difference is hugely appreciable or clear-cut remains to be seen. The bigger learning curve on PS3 perhaps masking some of this benefit, or perhaps having to bypass the less than stellar GPU another. I'm sure MikeB would like to contend all this with a barrage of links and quotes, but I have been reading up as well and this is how I see it. PS3 is probably the higher powered one, but a year down the road I still don't see the Xbox 360 devastator that was announced way back then. It all comes back to games: which system has the best games and which has the versions people enjoy most. Both are certainly capable of producing some excellent entertainment.

Quality arguments aside, I pretty much agree, and expect most others do as well, at least with respect to - they're effectively pretty close right now.

The 360 has more games, and more exclusives. Whether or not that matters to someone is up to them.

I think the bigger question is this - will the PS3 be 'good enough' by the time MS releases the next XBox. Sony has the habit of producing 'unique hardware,' which has ramp-up time, and if people are only just starting to 'get it' by the time MS' next gen console is out, can it hold up?

MS, on the other hand, is likely to release something not far off from a PC, with the same or very similar dev tools.

I expect we'll see some games, Crysis perhaps, that get released on PS3 that are 'wow' games, and may finally take advantage of the PS3 Cell. But, if 6 months later, MS releases the '720' as effectively the same system, with faster CPU, and a more modern graphics card, while PS3 still has years on it's roadmap before we see PS4, or if Sony releases the PS4 as something once again 'totally different than PS3,' it's unlikely to ever achieve numbers like PS2, and PS3 will be technically inferior at that point in time.

Of course, if instead, Sony finally realizes the name 'Sony' doesn't mean superiority, and time to market matters, they could release PS4 as a dual Cell system, with doubled RAM and gfx card better than RSX, within 6 months of MS' next console. Such a system should be powerful enough, while people will finally know enough on how to write code for it gained from PS3, and might even retain PS3 backward compatibility without too much hassles, as well as having people produce 'competitive' games shortly after launch.

So, this should be interesting, to see if Sony 'learns' anything from 'this round,' or not.
It's possible we see a period of time where PS3 games are 'out-doing' 360 games, but if 6 months later, MS releases it's '720' or whatever, while Sony has PS4 two years from then...does it matter?

The Wii - well, it simply doesn't matter. It's not competing in the 'HD or nearly HD' games arena, but on it's unique controller and games. While an HD capable version of the Wii would be welcome, it isn't in the same 'head to head' based on graphics that the PS3 and 360 are, so they can pretty much decide if and when to release their post-Wii console without too much worry, unless the PS4 and XBox '720' completely rip off the Wii controller as well as clone the games, something likely tough to do with at least some of them like Mario, etc.

Last edited by wegster on 04-May-2008 at 04:55 PM.

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