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      /  Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
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PosterThread
falemagn 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 6-Jun-2005 23:53:00
#81 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@Coder

Quote:

By the way Apple's OS will ONLY run on Apple x86 hardware.


In as much the same way as current OSX only runs on Apple PPC hardware

Last edited by falemagn on 06-Jun-2005 at 11:58 PM.

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AmigaMac 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 0:22:00
#82 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Oct-2002
Posts: 1080
From: 3rd Rock from the Sun!

@Interesting

guyz listen up......Apple just did us a major favor

we can now court (work on) those mac developers to port their ppc software to the amiga !

we can take back the amiga video market if we want to, it just ours to take
and the video market can sustain the Amiga, just as it did before.

lets get organized, we have two years.


I'm with ya partner

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SHADES 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 0:46:15
#83 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 853
From: Melbourne

@Hyperionmp

Can you clear up this description any more without spending too much time :))) I know you're busy.

Sorry to ask but I'm still a little unsure on all this CEL stuff. I'll have to read up on it. My basic grasp is that it's like a PPC core with 8 CEL co-prosessors that do the main tasks, all run by the central core?? Something like this??

Will it be hard to get AMIGA OS to utilise this new processor technology? IE use the CEL based CPUs that are going to be in the next gen consoles?
The whole CEL design reminds me very much of a Software Threading enviroment. Is it like the CELs themselves distribute certain tasks? perhaps run more than one thing on an individual CEL?.
Won't some sort of OS awareness need to be present to distribute cycles or is this all handeled by the CPU regardless of what is being run on it . IE playstation 3 xbox 3 or AmigaOS4??

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tomazkid 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 0:48:08
#84 ]
Team Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 11694
From: Kristianstad, Sweden

@falemagn

Quote:
In as much the same way as current OSX only runs on Apple PPC hardware


Like the way MOL runs on my A1?

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SHADES 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 1:35:07
#85 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 853
From: Melbourne

@All
My concern is all about hardware compatibility.

I don't know of any chipsets that are available for CEL to run standards, i.e. AGP PCI or PCIx etc.
How would these new CPUs be implimented into the existing platform?

My concern is that we(amiga users) will be reliant on another dying CPU, just like the 68x series did because we don't have any other option. I don't believe that freescale is interested in making many more g5 g6 etc based CPU, and will focus on CEL. I was sure that Apple was the main buyer for current desktop and notebook CPUs, now that they have pulled out it makes the current PPC CPUs future a little less likely and also a lot less likely that a desktop CEL chipset will be designed as Apple won't be using them.

Someone else will now need to make a chipset that will connect CEL to these PCI etc standards if we are to use them.

My next concern is .... doesn't AOS require PCI bus etc?? I mean it's basic startup is written to initalise PC based hardware on a PCI bus isn't it?

Are we talking another re-write of AOS? version 5?

Is the AMIGA roadmap once again going to a custom bassed arcitecture? a non PCI / pci/express bus or otherwise non-main stream hardware standard?

My next question is will this change the AMIGA OS roadmap?
My understanding of the AMIGA OS port was to enable easily accessable and up to date PC hardware based on a PPC platform. The concern is that it looks as though this platform will be finishing in favour of a new CPU design.

Will a new PCI/x chipset be financially vable under CEL??

The post by Smithy shows that IBM are making (Custom) desktops for niche markets only. Graphics studios etc.... it doesn't sound like using cheap easy to buy PC hardware, it actually sounds very custom, and that means $$$

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terminator3 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 1:40:07
#86 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Mar-2004
Posts: 187
From: USA

NO NO NO (i'm angry!!!)
I keep reading this over and over. Whining and crying that A1 is expensive and all
if not directly then its implying. You want cheapness then run your X86 stuff (windoze, linux whatnot). As a student i put my hard saved money and bought A1 Xe. yeah initially it sucked, b/c DMA did not work and seemed slow. Now its very good and i'm very happy with it!!

why is it that some of the amigans and current amiga users fail to realize that:
- buying A1 hardware means paying more and that such overpaying (if you must insist on that, i don't) means supporting development of OS4. Last i checked software doesn't port or write itself. Buying hardware you're supporting OS4 development.
Genesi would love to get os4 on their machines without paying a nickle for it... (stick to Morph OS - as A1 user i have os4. if i want morph os i get pegasos. If i want to run Tiger, or any OS X variant i get a Mac)

- porting OS4 itself now would be back stabbing of all amigans that own an A1 (maybe later on but even then i fail to see the advantages.) Having firmware on A1 prevents piracy and forces only legitimate owners to own a great computer. It also establishes a platform which hopefully will not see as much piracy as X86.

- It's not all hardware. The G4 cpu is plenty enough to do many htings. Back in the day, Amiga was known for its efficiency and speed and it ran only on 680x0 family of processors. Good software makes good platform not just hardware.

- Maczilla & others: you wantOS4 on Mac? Sounds like you just volunteered to code & port OS4 for it. Why don't you stick to running UAE?? If you're an amigan then you would find your heart to get one - come on!

on Apple's own brand of X86 mac.
- I will suggest that mac people/users will still stick to Apple's PPC/Risc technology if offered and ppc computer models still existing in thefuture
- X86 CISC has borrowed lots of things from RISC world. Perhaps Apple is simply diversifying the product line?
"“We think this is a really smart move on Apple’s part and plan to create future versions of our Creative Suite for Macintosh that support both PowerPC and Intel processors,” said Bruce Chizen, CEO of Adobe. " (this suggests continuation of PPC???)

- Why Intel and not AMD???

on X86:
- X86: As a reseller of hardware & software I can't believe how unpunished the piracy goes these days. People walk into stores asking for free software and free copy of windows!!! My hope is that A1 as a platform will be different. Let's face it all A1 owners belong to one family :)

Official announcement for those interested:
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2005/jun/06intel.html

Last, my apolygizes if i offended anyone, but asking for porting to different platform just angers me!!!



@Maczilla

[quote]
Maczilla wrote:
@Thread
t seems likely that some very good orphaned
HW will be on the used market (eBay and such)
over the next 2-3 years - now why not port OS 4
to the (not very) old Apple PPC HW. It's possible
that an iMac G5 will cost less than the present A1
by next year. Let's not let good HW go to waste!

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cell 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 1:40:46
#87 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Feb-2005
Posts: 1078
From: the depths of hell

It looks like x86 is beginning to totally dominate all other platforms. Both Sun and Apple are now moving to x86. And why not: it's high performance and low cost when compared to Sparc or Power. Why the big worry -- as long as you can run a good OS on x86, that's fine by me. I really don't think that Power based machines can match the raw power of high end x86 boxes. It's better for Power to be in the embedded systems market. Competition is always good, but what can you do in this case?

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Maczilla 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 2:39:01
#88 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Oct-2003
Posts: 206
From: USA

@terminator3
Unfortunately, I'm not much of a coder and I'd need
an AOS license from AI. I will say nothing negative
regarding the A1. I read Alan's Q&A and understand
how difficult Eyetechs position is. I'm really interested
in getting a A1-I, should they become available (if
anyone in a position to make a large order is reading
this, please get on with it - the enthusiast are waiting!)

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billt 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 3:49:01
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@SHADES

Quote:
My concern is that we(amiga users) will be reliant on another dying CPU, just like the 68x series did because we don't have any other option. I don't believe that freescale is interested in making many more g5 g6 etc based CPU, and will focus on CEL. I was sure that Apple was the main buyer for current desktop and notebook CPUs, now that they have pulled out it makes the current PPC CPUs future a little less likely and also a lot less likely that a desktop CEL chipset will be designed as Apple won't be using them.


Freescale doesn't make Cell. IBM does. While Cell is based on PowerPC, I'm not sure Freescale is in on the deal to be a second supplier of the complete Cell technology. They may be, but I haven't seen anything public about it. Maybe something will be said after their technology form conference later this month...

They do have a roadmap for the future of their own devices. I'd be suprised if this Apple thing was a suprise to Freescale or IBM. I'm sure both suppliers have plans in place now to continue with other angles of marketing their wares to their satisfaction.

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T_Bone 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:07:08
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@jahc

Quote:

jahc wrote:
With Apple announcing they're switching to Intel in 2006 or whatever.. does that mean PowerPC for desktop is dead?


Yes. it'll become an embedded only processor.

Evolve or die.

Quote:
Can anyone assure me that PowerPC Amiga has a future?


They couldn't do that before this announcement. Apple's announcement isn't just the writing on the wall, it's skywriting... neon glow-in-the-dark skywriting.

Quote:
If not,I wonder how long it would take to port all that PowerPC ASM in ExecNG to x86.. pretty long I'd guess.


The sooner you start...

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T_Bone 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:14:27
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@Rogue

Quote:

Rogue wrote:
@jahc

Quote:
does that mean PowerPC for desktop is dead?


Seeing how all next-gen consoles are PowerPC/CELL based, I don't think so.


What's that got to do with "PowerPC for the Desktop"?
I could care less about the embedded market. Give me a desktop or give me death.

Quote:
Quote:
I wonder how long it would take to port all that PowerPC ASM in ExecNG to x86.. pretty long I'd guess.


The major obstacle in an X86 port of ExecSG would be the emulator, since that is written entirely in assembler. The execSG kernel itself is almost exclusively written in C.


Cool, so what's it going to take to get Hyperion to do a port? Name a figure.

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T_Bone 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:25:03
#92 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@smithy

Quote:

The tide has turned. It's time to turn with it and move to the PC or we all get drowned. There is no desktop without Intel.


Please please please god YES.

If we don't roll with the punches, we're going to get the living #### beat out of us... again and again.

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T_Bone 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:27:42
#93 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@Seer

Quote:

But if I could get OS4 on my current Wintel hardware I'd buy it..


Who, in their right mind, wouldn't???

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herewegoagain 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:32:51
#94 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Jan-2003
Posts: 3270
From: Charlotte, NC

@SHADES

Quote:

My concern is all about hardware compatibility.

I don't know of any chipsets that are available for CEL to run standards, i.e. AGP PCI or PCIx etc.
How would these new CPUs be implimented into the existing platform?


Concidering that IBM already have a workstation prototype built that uses the Cell, I feel sure that they have worked out these issues. I mean, the PS3 has to use something to communicate with the Nvidia RSX graphics chip, right. I don't think that will be a problem.

As for PPC being dead, I don't think so. Apple on the other hand, just started the slide down the dark slippery hole.

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T_Bone 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:34:32
#95 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Sep-2003
Posts: 3043
From: here To: there

@smithy

Quote:

smithy wrote:
@smithy

Check this out: IBM and Sony are developing Cell-based workstations. To be used for PS3 development amongst other things.

Could such a machine by the mystery device..........?



Cripes, that would push the bar for entry up even higher!

All I want to do is run AmigaOS4 dangit. Why do we keep having to insist on crazy dangfangled hardware to run it on?

If Eyetech leaves, can't we make the switch to something we'll never have to wory about finding a manufacturer for ever again?

Last edited by T_Bone on 07-Jun-2005 at 04:38 AM.

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swoodall 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:44:20
#96 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Sep-2003
Posts: 248
From: Raleigh NC, USA

@thread

The CEO of Terrasoft has already made a brief statement that they will continue to be a Linux and Power-arch company.

Quote:
{Apple's} announcement does not
immediately affect our ability to sell nor support Apple PowerPC hardware.
Nor does it affect our ability to support non-Apple Power Architecture
offerings. Things are already in motion to enable a world of greater Power
Architecture diversity.


If I were feeling optimistic I might suggest that taking Apple out of the equation will let the "real" PPC desktop market develop out from under their shadow. Since I am pessimistic I have doubts that there is any substantive market there outside of the POWER servers or I-have-an-old-Mac-G3-can-I-run-Linux-on-it users.

Scott Woodall

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SHADES 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:46:50
#97 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 853
From: Melbourne

@Herewegoagain

(Concidering that IBM already have a workstation prototype built that uses the Cell, I feel sure that they have worked out these issues. I mean, the PS3 has to use something to communicate with the Nvidia RSX graphics chip, right. I don't think that will be a problem.

As for PPC being dead, I don't think so. Apple on the other hand, just started the slide down the dark slippery hole.)


I certainly hope you're right.
CEL is in the PSX3 too, and they had to make their own custom Bus for it to sit on, same with the new X box. IBM will be making Niche desktops aimed at hi end graphics houses etc. I very much doubt it's anything "main stream" in fact they have said otherwise. THey have stated where it will be aimed for.

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SHADES 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 4:50:00
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Nov-2003
Posts: 853
From: Melbourne

@swoodall

I think g3 is now considered to be at an end anyway. It's CEL only now.
I doubt there will be any more g3 type development so that platform is already like another 68x platform or coldfire would be. Very little development. Very niche market.

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Hyperionmp 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 6:47:47
#99 ]
Hyperion
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 502
From: Unknown

@T_Bone

If you can prove to me that any x86 CPU is as effective as the CELL architecture at multi-media, we might consider it.

There is no desktop market anymore, there are only mobile and CE markets.

That's where AmigaOS needs to go. OS 4 was never intended to challenge MacOS or Windows directly. Doing so would be abandoning some of the key virtues that make AmigaOS what it is.

Time to snap out of these fantasies. AmigaOS 4 is intended as a multimediacentric embedded systems OS which also happens to run very well on embedded systems type hardware: the AmigaOne.

We never intended to bloat AmigaOS beyond recognition by turning it into Windows XP which requires massive computational resources just to run the operating system itself.

What we need is a decent CPU to run the lightweight AmigaOS with dedicated hardware to deliver astounding multimedia performance.

Guess what? The CELL with its 8 DSP style SPE's and Altivec unit does exactly that.

Even with a single ALU and FPU a 970 core can easily run AmigaOS with all the multimedia exacting tasks (audio-video (de)coding, image manipulation, 3D graphics etc.) being offloaded to the dedicated SPE's.

Now that's the future for the Amiga: a return to its core values of being a multimedia powerhouse.

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wegster 
Re: Is PowerPC a dead-end now?
Posted on 7-Jun-2005 7:08:13
#100 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Hyperionmp
Hmm. I think that was the most motivating post regarding AOS' future I've read in a WHILE.

Thanks!

Ok, now spill the beans (Whatever they are)

Seriously, it's nice to hear about some forward thinking with respect to the future, moreso when it makes sense.

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