@AMiGR

>Tell that to AHT, their product won't use OS4 because Amiga Inc. refused to licence
>OS4 to them.

Let's say you pirate copy AmigaOS4 and install on one of AHT's computers, do you think it will run? I don't think so. Why? Because of the license? Nope. Because it isn't compatible and someone needs to port AmigaOS4 to it.

>Tell that to Acill, to whom Amiga Inc. even refused to reply directly, when he wanted
>to fund a Pegasos 2 port of OS4 privately.

Not because I heard anything from Acill about how his attempt went but that would be Amiga Inc.'s business decission and I can tell you as much that it has probably nothing to do with the licensing scheme. In fact, it is the licensing scheme that enables such business proposals to be considered in the first place. Although, it doesn't force Amiga Inc. to comply with every business proposal they are offered, they are still free to decline as they see fit.

>I also hope that you don't believe the "the licence ensures quality control for Amiga
>licenced products" anymore..

We all decide how much we want to read into such marketing language. The licensing scheme announcement was made at a time when certain clarifications was needed to be made to the public because certain other parties tried to portray the situation as something it wasn't. They had to make a stand and this is what came out of it.

_________________
Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @T_Bone Quote: As for classic apps, they are already emulated in OS4, there's no change Are emulated but can use native libs if avaliable the same is not possible in a x86 pot due to endianess problems

Amithlon handled it. It comes at a slight speed penalty, but not only was the speed hit made up for in the speed of the CPU, it was surpassed. Amithlon can emulate things that AmigaOS4 emulares faster on cheaper hardware. If AmigaOS were available for x86, it would gain this advantage as well.

Quote:

that is why AROS not have 68k emu built-in and you have to use UAE

AROS doesn't have it by choice. It was not one of AROS's design goals, it was designed to be source compatible, not to emulate binaries.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@thread

Is it possible that some company might make PC graphics cards using the cell chip? It seems a natural fit bearing in mind the hype that will be generated by PS3's release.
It would have onboard RAM of course, and graphics cards are approaching 512k very soon(if they aren't already).

It would then be possible to actually have OS4 running on the card, or several, sitting on an x86 motherboard, or even an A1/Troika/Peg/Mac for that matter. Now how cool would that be?

That said, I don't see why the PowerVixen, that is said to be able to sit in an A1200 couldn't be made to also sit on a PCI slot in a PC. Yes, I know the PV is stand-alone, but you might be able to make use of your PC peripherals too, like you could with bridgeboards, if it sat in a PCI slot as well. It seems to me the PV gets around the AOS license restriction by supporting classic.

Ok. Going back to my happy place now.
The weiners are cooked but we have no buns!!! I'll have my hotdog to go!!!

_________________
Leo Nigro, CTO Commodore USA, LLC
Opinions expressed are my own and not those of C= USA.
Commodore/AMIGA "Beautiful, High-Performance, Home Computers for Creativity and Entertainment."

@T_Bone

Quote:

Amithlon handled it. It comes at a slight speed penalty, but not only was the speed hit made up for in the speed of the CPU, it was surpassed. Amithlon can emulate things that AmigaOS4 emulares faster on cheaper hardware. If AmigaOS were available for x86, it would gain this advantage as well.

Amithlon is an emulator that runs on top of linux, not an OS port so i don´t think that the comparision is good

Quote:

AROS doesn't have it by choice. It was not one of AROS's design goals, it was designed to be source compatible, not to emulate binaries.

Have you follow the trheads on Aros-exec.org? by your answer i think that no.it´s not by choice is because is technically imposible (well, nearly impossible or very difficult).Is for that that the developers talk about an UAE integration instead of an 68k emu, the problem with this aproach is that the emulated apps can´t use native libraries

Last edited by Fransexy on 15-Jan-2006 at 03:57 PM.

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@samface

Quote:

Let's say you pirate copy AmigaOS4 and install on one of AHT's computers, do you think it will run? I don't think so. Why? Because of the license? Nope. Because it isn't compatible and someone needs to port AmigaOS4 to it.

And what's your point then?...

Quote:

Not because I heard anything from Acill about how his attempt went but that would be Amiga Inc.'s business decission and I can tell you as much that it has probably nothing to do with the licensing scheme. In fact, it is the licensing scheme that enables such business proposals to be considered in the first place. Although, it doesn't force Amiga Inc. to comply with every business proposal they are offered, they are still free to decline as they see fit.

Yes, there seems to be lots of business schemes available for AmigaOS 4..

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @T_Bone Quote: Amithlon handled it. It comes at a slight speed penalty, but not only was the speed hit made up for in the speed of the CPU, it was surpassed. Amithlon can emulate things that AmigaOS4 emulares faster on cheaper hardware. If AmigaOS were available for x86, it would gain this advantage as well. Amithlon is an emulator that runs on top of linux, not an OS port so i don´t think that the comparision is good

You think wrong probably only because you don't know what Amitlon is. Amithlon does not run on top of linux. Ask Bernd

Quote:

Quote: AROS doesn't have it by choice. It was not one of AROS's design goals, it was designed to be source compatible, not to emulate binaries. Have you follow the trheads on Aros-exec.org?

yes.

Quote:

by your answer i think that no.it´s not by choice is because is technically imposible (well, nearly impossible or very difficult).Is for that that the developers talk about an UAE integration instead of an 68k emu, the problem with this aproach is that the emulated apps can´t use native libraries

It's "technically impossible" only because of the design goals I've already stated. Ask Fabio.

edit: MF'n quote tags, WHY CAN'T I EDIT OUT the "editid by" crap at the bottom??? it's giving me an inferiority complex!!

Last edited by T_Bone on 15-Jan-2006 at 04:10 PM.
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_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

A curiosity: Only x86 and alphas are little endian the others CPUs in the industry are big endian (or have the two modes)

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@T_Bone
Quote:

Fransexy wrote: Quote: Are emulated but can use native libs if avaliable the same is not possible in a x86 pot due to endianess problems Amithlon handled it. It comes at a slight speed penalty, but not only was the speed hit made up for in the speed of the CPU, it was surpassed. Amithlon can emulate things that AmigaOS4 emulares faster on cheaper hardware. If AmigaOS were available for x86, it would gain this advantage as well.

As I understand it, Petnuia is a JIT which will execute 68K instructions natively on the PPC, either thanks to instruction compatibility with 68K on the PPC, or due to translation from 68K to PPC instructions. This would tie OS4 to the PPC for those who wished to run classic apps in OS4, unless a CPU agnostic emulator were used (so much for the HAL).

To say that the 68K cannot be emulated on a completely different CPU due to "endianess" is ridiculous. A 68K JIT could even be implemented for x86. Translation up front would take longer than on a CPU which is binary compatible, but so what? Classic 68K applications are tiny, if the translation takes milliseconds longer, who will notice?

As far as so-called "classic" PPC apps: what apps? Is there even a single one that anybody cares about?

_________________
Here for the whimpering end

@T_Bone

Quote:

You think wrong probably only because you don't know what Amitlon is. Amithlon does not run on top of linux. Ask bernd

I think that you are who don´t know.Amithlon uses a minimal linux kernel to boot and launch the emulator.a few hardware is accessed by AOS native drivers other accesed thought linux drivers

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@jorkany

Quote:

Quote: Amithlon handled it. It comes at a slight speed penalty, but not only was the speed hit made up for in the speed of the CPU, it was surpassed. Amithlon can emulate things that AmigaOS4 emulares faster on cheaper hardware. If AmigaOS were available for x86, it would gain this advantage as well. As I understand it, Petnuia is a JIT which will execute 68K instructions natively on the PPC, either thanks to instruction compatibility with 68K on the PPC, or due to translation from 68K to PPC instructions. This would tie OS4 to the PPC for those who wished to run classic apps in OS4, unless a CPU agnostic emulator were used (so much for the HAL). To say that the 68K cannot be emulated on a completely different CPU due to "endianess" is ridiculous. A 68K JIT could even be implemented for x86. Translation up front would take longer than on a CPU which is binary compatible, but so what? Classic 68K applications are tiny, if the translation takes milliseconds longer, who will notice?

Petunia wouldn't be able to be used on x86, but Bernd could do something for the x86 side I'm sure. He'd work himself out of the Amithlon market by eliminating the need for it anymore, but I'm not so sure he'd have a problem with that.

Quote:

As far as so-called "classic" PPC apps: what apps? Is there even a single one that anybody cares about?

or that would be important enough to negate a wildly successful Amiga?

Last edited by T_Bone on 15-Jan-2006 at 04:17 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@jorkany

Quote:

To say that the 68K cannot be emulated on a completely different CPU due to "endianess" is ridiculous

So are you saying that AROS developers are ridiculous?

If is as easy as you are saying...Why is not implemented in AROS being one of the most demanded features?

_________________
No PowerPC, No Fun
Make Amiga Great Again

@samface

Quote:

Let's say you pirate copy AmigaOS4 and install on one of AHT's computers, do you think it will run? I don't think so. Why? Because of the license? Nope. Because it isn't compatible and someone needs to port AmigaOS4 to it.

Oops, you're wrong. First of all, the AHT machine is an STB. Second of all, they wanted to get a licence and pay Hyperion for a port. Oops! Guess what happened! Amiga Inc. didn't give them a licence and as a direct consequence, AmigaOS4 does not run on it.

Quote:

Not because I heard anything from Acill about how his attempt went but that would be Amiga Inc.'s business decission and I can tell you as much that it has probably nothing to do with the licensing scheme.

He was refused a licence, so it has much to do with the licensing scheme.
Quote:

In fact, it is the licensing scheme that enables such business proposals to be considered in the first place. Although, it doesn't force Amiga Inc. to comply with every business proposal they are offered, they are still free to decline as they see fit.

No, it isn't, without the licensing scheme, any company would be able to pay Hyperion for a port to their hardware and Hyperion could also self-finance a port that they see fit to do themselves. Oops!
Guess what? Now, you have to go beg Amiga Inc., a company that has 0 to do with AmigaOS, developmen-wise, in order to get past a superficial limitation: The hardware licence.

_________________

@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @T_Bone Quote: You think wrong probably only because you don't know what Amitlon is. Amithlon does not run on top of linux. Ask bernd I think that you are who don´t know.Amithlon uses a minimal linux kernel to boot and launch the emulator.a few hardware is accessed by AOS native drivers other accesed thought linux drivers

Bernd, could you please tell this man that Amithlon works inside the kernel, not on top of it?

Amithlon *is* the kernel. Amithlon does not *launch* the emulator, Amithlon *is* the emulator.

Last edited by T_Bone on 15-Jan-2006 at 04:21 PM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 15-Jan-2006 at 04:20 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@Fransexy

Because, according to the AROS team themselves, it's not their goal. It never was.

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@Fransexy

Quote:

Fransexy wrote: @jorkany Quote: To say that the 68K cannot be emulated on a completely different CPU due to "endianess" is ridiculous So are you saying that AROS developers are ridiculous? If is as easy as you are saying...Why is not implemented in AROS being one of the most demanded features?

Because it was designed to be something else completely.

The reason it's one of the features most demanded, is because there's no AmigaOS x86 yet, or Amithlon anymore.

That doesn't change the fact that it's not what AROS was designed for.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@AMiGR

And even if they wanted to, difficulty wouldn't come into it.

The developers are doing an amazing job, but they can only do so much with the little spare time they have. Hence my sig!

Chris

@hazydave

Mighty Dave,

I don t care for this, somewhat useless, x86/ppc "bigwar" thread...

With this reply I want only tell you a BIG thank you for all the great amiga related things, you have done for us...

Don't care for some modern little-respectful amigans you may ear... you are a living legend, really...

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AmigaOS, the last hope...

@T_Bone

Replying to myself

I just had another thought. Since Petunia isn't portable, if AmigaOS4 were ported to x86, why not just leave 68k emulation out?

I don't plan on emulating 20 year old software forever, and OS4 native software is becomming more and more common.

Maybe leave the option open as a commercial add-on product.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone & AmiGR:

But it could change if people want to and show their support by raising bounties or joining as developers.

If people want "AmigaOS" on x86 please support AROS. That's the most realistic option currently, IMHO.

@Mr_Capehill

You should have included me, because I've done nothing for them. Which is rubbish, really.

I wish I wasn't so rubbish at C. I never even got my tree data-structure working in Computer Science. I should contribute to the "improve Wanderer" bounty as everything else is shaping up nicely!

Chris