samface wrote:

Quote:

Now you're just full of even more nonsense. Most people that had DOS as their OS at that time didn't have a computer capable of running Windows 95.

Not true, in fact *most* sales of Win95 were the rev A "upgrade" versions. Even in 1998 when Win98 came out, there were more machines with Win95A-upgrade on them than Win95B-oem.

Even microsoft wern't aware just how many people were still using Rev A untill there was a problem with IOS.VXD that made a loop happen too fast and crash on AMD 300's and higher. They released a fix for Rev B (the OEM version) but were surprised at the millions still running Rev A who couldn't use it.

I'm still surprised how well Rev A 95 runs on an old 486 with 8mb ram, untill you install IE4 or higher.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@IceDragon

Sorry for the late reply. I was quite busy the past few days.

I understand your points and it's true since I was mostly talking about Amiga Inc's licensing scheme, I didn't try to compare mainstream x86 hw and mainstream Cell hw (not because I was trying to distort the facts, mostly because I still can't buy any Cell hw in any supplier atm; thus didn't think about it as commodity hw).

If Cell mb and processors are available soon at most hw distributors, that is if you can go and buy a mother board for 50-100$ and a processor for 50-100$, then Cell would become a relevant choice - and I'll be really happy if it turns out like that (and I'm talking of desktop hw, not any embedded stuff - embedded would have about the same drawbacks as custom hw, because most embedded hw are custom designed to fit a certain purpose).

If it's IBM plan, that would make the Cell choice a good one indeed.

Personnaly, I can't imagine IBM would really think of going head on against x86 - when you're facing so many competitors, like the numerous x86 mb makers, you're far better of going on another market. Apart from game stations, Cell would fit more easily on their servers / embedded markets, and we would have the same problems as with the current PPC situation.

But that's a personnal opinion, and anybody can contradict me if they want. Since noone would really be able to prove their point (and also since I'd be really happy if the future would prove me wrong ;) ), no need to argue about this one. As I said, main pb is the licensing scheme.

The following is a personnal opinion, and I'm not going to argue about it, I'm just trying to explains what bothers me with bundling the OS with a custom hw :

When you want to sell a product, you want to increase its sales by making any others thing people have to buy to use your product the cheapest - even better if it's free. You want to make everything you don't make money on a commodity.

Microsoft makes money on OS and software - they made the hw a commodity.

OTOH, IBM makes money on hardware (and services). They only makes big money on software for really big clients. So they want to commoditize the OS that runs on their hw. Thus the Cell mb for Linux development. That's why I personnaly don't think Cell hw will become a commodity - it's not in IBM's interest.

Hyperion makes money on the OS and on software. Like any OS company, you want to sell more by making the hw your OS runs on a commodity - making it as cheap as possible. The situation they're in now is that they're trying to keep their OS on an expensive and rare hw. IMHO - but that's only my opinion - that's not the best choice (even if it's laudable). And - still a personnal opinion - the Cell path runs the risk that the hw won't become a commodity. With x86, you know it's already a commodity, which explain why the most "niche" OS can still have a nice situation chosing it.

@IceDragon

Quote:

Quote: (and that's not what I was considering, so it's not so nice to read an answer that shows you weren't really paying attention to what I wrote) Apparantly, you should first be coherent about your arguments. If you imply licensing to be solved, then you shouldnt switch back and forth in your comparisons between licensing-solved and not solved. Then you wouldn't have to come to overquick conclusions about who was paying attention.

My apologies ! And thanks for clarifying your POV, I hadn't understood it before.

@samface

I'll try to keep this one short because it sound quite simple.

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@t3g Well, the Debian Open Hardware Project doesn't seem to think of it as a laughing matter. As they write on http://opencollector.org/Whyfree/open_hardware.html : Quote: It sounds crazy that people could sell hardware and not tell you how to use it, but it is actually a growing trend. If a company sells any device which interfaces to a computer without publishing the interface specs, they then have a monopoly on interface software (or can sell the monopoly to a software company). WinModems and WinPrinters - which also cannot be supported by Linux - are a related problem. Do you think they would really have launched the Open Hardware Certification Program if the PC industry was as open and well documented as you try to portray it?

We were talking about x86 harware, not about *peripherals*. That is, x86 motherboards.
I for one wouldn't have imagined you could have missed this point. As far as you know the motherboard chipset (and on x86 you can find quite well documented chipsets, and well known already by the hundreds of developpers that are already contributing to the high number of x86 OS) the OS programmer situation is far easier.

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if the PC industry was as open and well documented as you try to portray it?

I don't even need to portray it. x86 developers already said so in this thread. You are the non x86 OS developer portraying it as hard to support. And no, WinModems and WinPrinters aren't easier to support on Amiga One. And happily, if you support them already on Amiga One OS4, you would also support them on any x86 OS4.

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At worst, piracy would increase our user base and the amount of software available. How is that going to help us when no new version of the AmigaOS is developed because not enough people listened to their conscience and actually payed for the product?

You won't understand me, and that's ok - I never thought I would be able to convince every Windows user that the world isn't whole made of people like them. I had hopped you could understand that someone that wouldn't have spend 800$ to buy hw and an OS in the first place wouldn't harm the OS by not buying it.

Quote:

Most piracy is done by the a little more advanced users, such as those with a bit deeper knowledge and interest about computers. Like those with knowledge of and/or experience from setting up a dual-boot system, ie the type of users that an x86 verion of the AmigaOS would be targetting.

Well, are you talking about the kind of "advanced user" that would buy a Fujitsu laptop without even checking if its hw is well supported by Linux? That's not *my* idea of an advanced user. And the thing is, the one that has spend too much time with Windows is also the one afraid about piracy. I know it isn't enough to say you're just proving my point, but the users that aren't running Windows also do it for license issues - because they respect copyright. The other ones keep using Windows some of the times, and by running another OS they imagine they know the world out there. In most of the cases, like you just proved us, "advanced" is just a nice name they want you to call them (I've seen some of these so called "advanced* users, some had been studying computing. Most of the time, they spray FUD without even being aware of it, just because they assume that things true for them apply to every computer user. Incidentally, most of the time, I know their OS better than they do - even thought I don't use it). The ones that *cares* about OS and licenses don't run Windows.

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Or are you seriously saying that my grandma would pirate copy MacOSx86?

I wouldn't even dare thinking any bad things about your grandma.
But I know lots of grandmas that have nice grandchildrens, the ones that fancy being "advanced users". They do install pirated Windows on their grandmas computers, and their grandmas are so happy to have such a nice boy that gave them Windows. I'll guess their grandsons will rapidly install MacOS so their beloved grandmas have an even better Desktop.

Seriously, most of the people pirating Windows I know of are Joe users (even a Joe user has an easy time finding someone to install Windows for them). The ones that know a bit about computing don't pirate Windows - they know well enough the harm they do to an open computing world by spreading Microsoft's OS. Thus, they already use other OS.

OS are not like games. Usually, with small niche OS, you have far more reasons to support it than to pay for your games. If the games company goes bankrupt, it's just a sequel you lose (and most sequels aren't so great anyway). If your OS company does the same, your whole computer environment disapears, and you'll have a hard time picking one that suits your tastes like the first one. So yes, unless you're a total moron or don't know anything about computing, you do pay for your OS.

Last edited by t3g on 28-Jan-2006 at 09:24 PM.

@t3g

Quote:

Someone that wouldn't have spend [$800 to buy AmigaOS] in the first place wouldn't harm [AmigaOS] by not buying it.

Chisel this in stone somewhere, because it so utterly and completely DESTROYS many of the Anti-x86'ers comments, that it's completely absurd we keep hearing them raised again and again like they were never discredited already.

This should be the answer to question #1 in the FAQ.

edit: s/was/were

Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 09:01 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone
True. Well, I had quite some fun reading the threads OTOH...

Quote:

FAQ

Which FAQ?

@t3g

> Which FAQ?

The one that needs to be created "Seehund steelo" for threads like this

edit: or did you mean which particular question does it answer? Well, MOST of them.

edit 2:

Some specific questions raised by people saying "An x86 version wouldn't work because..."

"...piracy" - See Answer #1 in FAQ

"...competes with Windows, they'll use what came with the computer." - See Answer #1 in FAQ

"...they won't support some obscure x86 hardware and people just won't buy something from a compatibility list." - See answer #1 in FAQ

"...people won't buy an x86 AmigaOS unless it supports their specific configuration (another variation)" - See answer #1 in thread.

"...the x86 market is flooded." - See answer #1 in FAQ

oh hell, name the comment, there's an 80% chance answer #1 in the FAQ will nullify it to the point where it implodes into a singularity of nothingness.

Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 09:14 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone

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answer #1 in the FAQ will nullify it to the point where it implodes into a singularity of nothingness.

Sounds painfull. Does it hurt?

@t3g

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t3g wrote: @T_Bone Quote: answer #1 in the FAQ will nullify it to the point where it implodes into a singularity of nothingness. Sounds painfull. Does it hurt?

At this level, shrodingers cat neither feels pain nor doesn't feel pain, but exists in a state neither closer to one side nor between them.

edits: wierded grammer

Your quote should be THE focus of the FAQ. Your idea's intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 10:51 PM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 10:47 PM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 10:45 PM.
Last edited by T_Bone on 28-Jan-2006 at 10:44 PM.

_________________
"If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you." - Oscar Wilde

@T_Bone

http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh17-e.htm

Oh! Sorry! I thought this was the counting thread!

@t3g

Quote:

Sorry for the late reply. I was quite busy the past few days.

No harm done. There is a life beyond amigaworld.net i would say.


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If Cell mb and processors are available soon at most hw distributors, that is if you can go and buy a mother board for 50-100$ and a processor for 50-100$, then Cell would become a relevant choice

The relevant choice is not really tagged to a price of 50-100$ per processor. The price/performance ratio has to be acceptable. Especially with a start of a high-end processor you cannot expect the processor to be in the low end price range of x86 processors. Look at the prices of a Pentium Extreme etc. or the big AMD ones. Nonetheless, if a standard mainboard for Cell is made available and OS4 is ported to that, that would be a relevant choice.

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Personnaly, I can't imagine IBM would really think of going head on against x86

I don't think IBM plans to go straight head-to-head against x86, and i don't think this is even necessary to make Cell a relevant choice. IBM said that they want Cell to be available for the Linux Community when they presented the Linux Cell workstation - they announced their OpenHardware plans. This all shows that in contrast to the past, they want to have Cell availbale for the desktop use (or general a broader use). With the Cell to be produced in high-volumes for Sonys PS3 and Toshibas TV plans, this is also plausible as much better pricing/availability can be achieved then with previous PPC solutions. What we need to drastically improve the current situtation is not to have the cheapest possible desktop platform, we just need a mainboard / processor with an acceptable price/performance ratio that is thoroughly tested and available.


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The situation they're in now is that they're trying to keep their OS on an expensive and rare hw. IMHO - but that's only my opinion - that's not the best choice (even if it's laudable).

The situation they are in is bound to the licensing terms. While we still not know the exact terms of this, it's hard to argue about what is the right choice for Hyperion as such. We can be quite sure that Hyperion cannot get rid of the licensing terms on their own - so the path is and has been laid out in front for some time. Whether we like this or not, this is reality. We could argue for years about what should be done and what is right etc, but since we do not have the whole picture, it would not hit the spot. I think its rather safe to say that no matter which path is taken, they need a properly tested available mainboard/Processor for it at a reasonable price. I couldn't care less if thats PPC or x86 or Sparc or... Since i assume Hyperion is well aware of that, iam convinced they will do their best in their own interest as far as their current contract allows them to achieve that.


Quote:

And - still a personnal opinion - the Cell path runs the risk that the hw won't become a commodity. With x86, you know it's already a commodity, which explain why the most "niche" OS can still have a nice situation chosing it.

As far as iam concerned, i would rather take the side of one of the points that Dave Haynie made. Amiga should stand for something that is unique and excels in certain area. Amiga was never a commodity, so in a perfect world i would not want it to run on a commidity platform as well. But, of course, the reality is different and we do not have the financial backing to work on something like that (rather, the current owners of the IP are in no way near such a position). and since we had very bad experiences in the past with people trying to sell the dream of Amiga rising again to the community just to let them down before even coming close to a release date - the great expectations are over. AOS on the Cell would at least be a little unique, it could show off it's strengths and could be a nice lightweight OS with very good multimedia performance. That's of course "could", it's still a long way to this goal and i would not bet my life on it ever being achieved as this is bound to the same licensing issues as the current situation. I guess, as before, we have to sit back and wait what will become of it. Still, let's not forget that at least we do now have a
very usable new version of AOS - it's likely that the involved parties can find a way somehow to at least have it available again on HW that doesnt suffer from the problems
we had with the MAI boards. I don't think Hyperion will flush OS4 down the drain when they have finished it just because of the failure of a custom mainboard.

Quote:

My apologies ! And thanks for clarifying your POV, I hadn't understood it before.

No need for apologies, it's sometimes hard to interpret so many posts in a single direction or an overall POV. Anyway, most of the people here no matter what platform they would prefer want one thing: run AOS on any HW that could be termed "up-to-date" without shelling out a fortune. This is something that has to be achievable, and we are all waiting for that to happen.

@IceDragon

Quote:

IBM said that they want Cell to be available for the Linux Community when they presented the Linux Cell workstation - they announced their OpenHardware plans. This all shows that in contrast to the past, they want to have Cell availbale for the desktop use (or general a broader use).

I had more the feeling that they would more push Linux development so they would get a broader and far easier to promote server market and into custom "embedded like" applications - do you have information that they're targeting the desktop? That would be interesting to know, because atm it sounded more like the usual Linux support and sponsorising they already do : that one doesn't really help for desktop purposes. We'll keep a situation where the end user, or any company willing to make their custom hw (in case Amiga Inc's licensing stays the same after all these years), would encounter far more obstacles getting their help (even if only to buy enough processors) for a market that doesn't even blip on their radar because the quantities targeted (or the prices) lacks a few zeros on the right, than if they chose an x86 hw (even custom).

As for running Amiga OS on commodity hw, I'd also be happier if we could run on something that made Amiga "special" again. But for a market that admitedly is already struggling for finances, going the "special hw" way is even more than risky. You would have to be able to lose millions of dollars the first few years, hoping to see your market grow, to take that path. My opinion (and it's personnal) is that it's far easier to get more developpers (thus more programs, and more drivers) if they don't have to take much risk to run your OS in the first place : even if you would have to buy a custom x86 hw to run Amiga OS, that hw would still be able to run the OS and distributions you're interested in (with proprietary softwares and codec, Java SDKs, and other stuff sometimes essential to developpers that are already hard to find on PPC Linux). Then you're in better shape to go into custom non-x86 hw.

Moreover - and that's one isn't a rant, just my feeling atm - each time a company would be close to drop the towel regarding the Amiga, they would either announce they were planning a revolutionnary hw, or say they were going to target the embedded market. It doesn't have to be counscious, it's just that it's easier sometimes to make people dream (and get your enginers to forget the fact they haven't been paid for a while) than take a few hard but reasonable decisions that wouldn't give you a nice flashy exit if you were to fail. That's not necessarily the case with Hyperion, just a (highly personnal) feeling.

As for another thing I find hard (and as the previous paragraph this one isn't adressed to you), it's when Amigans (or even worse some OS4 developers) argue that people wouldn't buy OS4 if they could run Windows on their Amiga hw. Either you believe your OS is worth more than Windows, or you just keep playing Half-Life 2 like a sheep on a Microsoft OS (yes, I know it can run on Linux, but people afraid of Windows are the ones that can't help using it).

@T_Bone

Quote:

Someone that wouldn't have spend [$800 to buy AmigaOS] in the first place wouldn't harm [AmigaOS] by not buying it.

No, but would as many of those who did have enough to spend buy AmigaOS if it's available for free?

Thank you for that opportunity to, as you said, "utterly and completely DESTROY" all of the pro-x86'ers arguments. Put that in the FAQ.

That's enough for me in this thread. I really can't be bothered any longer.

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Sammy Nordström, A.K.A. "Samface"

MINDRELEASE.net - The Non-Commercial Network of Digital Arts.

Samworks D & C - Professional Web Development (in Swedish)

@samface

Especially since lots of people already replied to all your points. Nice move, like the

Quote:

No, but would as many of those who did have enough to spend buy AmigaOS if it's available for free?

Not as many, little boy. More. Including all the interesting users for Amiga OS, that is the developpers (are you really going to sell an application that's been developed and tested on pirated software? Are you also going to ask help from Hyperion if your program has trouble on a pirated OS4?)

You should take the time to think a bit first. Or else, as you've said, you're better staying with your fellow Microsoft Windows users.

@samface

Oh, and btw, I'm not really a pro-x86'er. Just a pro-anything that would make OS4 available for most and let us give more money to Hyperion than to a hw maker.

OTOH, I'm really an anti-FUD'er

@IceDragon

Quote:

There is a life beyond amigaworld.net i would say.

That's stomething else we could argue for hours.
I've heard some tryed to prove that, but they never made it back...

@T_Bone

Quote:

At this level, shrodingers cat neither feels pain nor doesn't feel pain, but exists in a state neither closer to one side nor between them.

But if at this point and stage the cat neither feels pain neither it doesn't, what the cat feels!?

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@samface

Quote:

No, but would as many of those who did have enough to spend buy AmigaOS if it's available for free?

So you cannot buy a software if it has the vulture of piracy.
<subliminal message mode="on">
you cannot avoid it.
It is made available for free.

You cannot buy this software.
One must have to resist...
</subliminal message>


Obviously one would prefer to buy an 800$ mobo because that way one cannott avoid buying it.. what a twisted logic it is, it is more close to the logic behind addiction then anything else... but wait, you could eventually have a mobo that would be available for roughly half the price and still having a more powerfull machine... :-O Presto AmigaONE x86 for those who simply cannot avoid piracy altogether...

And then you can ask those who bought Amithlon... about 1500 users roughly the same of AmigaOne owners but in far less time.

Last edited by pixie on 30-Jan-2006 at 01:45 AM.
Last edited by pixie on 30-Jan-2006 at 01:43 AM.

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The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

@AMiGR

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I beg your pardon? What do you think the 486s run when they came out? DOS/Win3.11. They were PERFECTLY capable of running Windows95 and many people had me install them on their machines.

Not entirely did you forget the ram debacle. win 95 required more memory than some of the systems were able to use at the time. other than that they would have worked fine. i don't think they had another snafu like that again tho.

Last edited by jkirk on 30-Jan-2006 at 03:28 AM.

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Win•dows: n. A thirty-two bit extension and graphical shell to a sixteen-bit patch to an eight-bit operating system originally coded for a four-bit microprocessor which was written by a two-bit company that can't stand one bit of competition.

@jkirk

Well, anything with 8MBs worked.

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