Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
6049 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
Home
Features
News
Forums
Classifieds
Links
Downloads
Extras
OS4 Zone
IRC Network
AmigaWorld Radio
Newsfeed
Top Members
Amiga Dealers
Information
About Us
FAQs
Advertise
Polls
Terms of Service
Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
12 crawler(s) on-line.
 26 guest(s) on-line.
 0 member(s) on-line.



You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 Rob:  8 mins ago
 pixie:  8 mins ago
 clint:  13 mins ago
 BigD:  21 mins ago
 kolla:  43 mins ago
 vox:  1 hr 3 mins ago
 billt:  1 hr 11 mins ago
 michalsc:  1 hr 18 mins ago
 OlafS25:  1 hr 30 mins ago
 MEGA_RJ_MICAL:  1 hr 33 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )
PosterThread
Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:22:52
#121 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Quote:
Or what about those comments that went along the lines of "AmigaOS4 will not ship this year, nor the next one, nor the next next one..."


*shrugs* poop happens. The same happened to Vista, so what?

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:25:51
#122 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@falemagn

Quote:
There's basically nothing that today AmigaOS4 can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already.


Last time I checked, this was the same for quite a while in Amiga history. I don't see the relation.

Quote:
AmigaOS doesn't make sense on a mass market handheld, nor on the desktop, nor anywhere else I can imagine.


Well, good thing I have more imagination then. Let's leave it at this, regardless of what I would say now you would try to downplay it anyway.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:28:57
#123 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@pixie

Quote:
Help out OS4 team how? Helping as in charity?

I don't know. Just tell me. I'm not the one who threw the stone. Somebody else was wondering whether Genesi could help. I just asked how.

Quote:
When I (and I weren't alone) presented Hardware as a way to help out OS 4 not only you didn't said on how it was against your question, nor you explained how it would fail to do so, just said it wasn't possible, not that wouldn't be of help.

Apart from the fact that I *motivated* why it is not possible in my very first reply to you, who, on your turn, has been the first one to try to answer my question, I did not fail at all to explain why the hardware you and others presented cannot help: not having a license rules *that* (i.e. Genesi's) hardware out as a possible platform for AOS4.

Now, this is the third time you present the very same useless answer: do you think that repeating it over and over again will make it more valid or what?

Quote:
Then you go as far as adding that, 'bbrv themselves' (...) 'insist[s] on the hopeless and (false point) that they already have a license', forgeting that they have indeed a license, and perhaps if you do the math you would acknowledge that:

1. having made a contract where Genesi is granted an Amiga OS, an Amiga OS is due to Genesi. Perhaps it was in the shape of Amiga DE, I don't know, didn't read the contract, besides God knows how many times they and AmigaOS had changed plans, but Genesi shouldn't be the one to blame on missing and continuously exchanging plans*.

Since you are not fully informed, I suggest you learn about the whole story before expressing any comment about it. This very thread is indeed a very good place to start from: read it thoroughly from the very beginning and you'll have a good picture of the situation.

Quote:
Sir, I went to the trouble of actually read the branch on where I answered and strangely I could find the references you gave to me,

Why, you expected me to provide false links? Do you realize how bad your insinuation is?

Quote:
you expect to present an idea and at the same times assume others had read what you have?

I assume that the people who answer my posts at least know what I'm talking about in those posts. And indeed I do them a great favour by presenting precise references to the parts that would be unconvenient to report directly.

Quote:
So had you read an article on slashdot and started dissecting it here without giving factual clues who would be to blame... sir?

What are you blabbering about? Not only you can find everything is in *this* very thread, but I always take care of providing all the clues I'm able to.
The more goofy insinuations from you, the more your behaviour looks trollish.

Quote:
Your question, is a simple question,

Right. A simple question that nobody managed to find a valid answer for.

Quote:
someone who reads it wouldn't go dissecting all over the thread looking for clues for a question asking if Genesi could help out the OS4 team,

Following the discussion is not as hard as you're trying to make it look. And, anyway, the question has to be considered in the whole, proper context.

Quote:
So once again, how so and refering to the non charity venture of Genesi, I would say 'by bringing more hardware', but that can labeled as a trollish attemp, or as some sort of a game or trick, so this time I will only say: by bringing hardware. Hope it's better now

On the contrary, it only makes it worse because you have returned with the same, already countered argument once again. And it looks particularly bad especially now, after this acknowledgement of yours.

Quote:
Quote:
Now, why do you *again* repeat that
Because it seemed the only sensible thing to say, someone asks me what AOS 4 team needs, and Hardware come to mind

What a pity that the answer was not as general as you're trying to make it look: the answer was about *Genesi's* hardware, not *any* hardware.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:29:21
#124 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@lgn

To make this clear, I would not object in ANY way to a Pegasos II version of AmigaOS 4 (or any other Genesi hardware). However, as I am not the one that makes the decision or has any deciding power in this respect, it hasn't happened yet, otherwise it would already have happened two years ago.

_________________
Seriously, if you want to contact me do not bother sending me a PM here. Write me a mail

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
IonMane 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:49:17
#125 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Apr-2003
Posts: 550
From: Adelaide Australia.

@saimo

The only way Genesi could help is if they get a license. Plain and simple. The problem with that is, they do not see why they should pay for a port of AOS4, and nor do they feel they should pay for the priveledge of having AOS4 on thier machines.
Ok this is fair enough, and this also predates any rumblings of lawsuits between Genesi and Amiga Inc. btw.They do want the ability to call thier machines Amiga's and to be able to use that trademark, which is what this is all about.

Genesi wants thier cake and to eat it too, it has always been thus, and unlikely to change, IMO.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 14:59:54
#126 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@IonMane

Quote:
The only way Genesi could help is if they get a license.

Agreed.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 15:00:33
#127 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2303
From: Unknown

@IonMane

It's quite obvious that Genesi CAN'T get a licence no matter what, actually it seems that noone can for any HW.

Looking at what kind of demands AInc has set, one can allready rule out any HW thats successfull outside "Amiga", which offcourse means that the 500000$/year-demand can't be fullfilled and we're fullcircle.

AInc wants to get $ for every copy of OS4.
Ainc wants to get $ for every HW sold with OS4.
Ainc wants to get $$$$ for the pure fact that a HW can run OS4.

All that after contributing sweet nothing to the OS.....

So tell me, who has a cake-problem here ??

Btw, Genesi never demanded "OS4 for free", they only demanded a free licence, and maybe a reasonable OEM price for the OS (or to be sold shrinkwrapped indepedant of them).

Basicly the core error in all this is Hyperion accepting a contract where they do all the work, carry all the cost, but then have no (or atleast very little) say on how the result is marketed. Something that can hardly be blamed on Genesi.

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 15:12:00
#128 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
It's quite obvious that Genesi CAN'T get a licence no matter what,

Yes, that looks likely.

Quote:
actually it seems that noone can for any HW.

This is indeed disproven by McEwen's words as regards SAM and by the confident words of SAM developers.

Quote:
Looking at what kind of demands AInc has set, one can allready rule out any HW thats successfull outside "Amiga", which offcourse means that the 500000$/year-demand can't be fullfilled and we're fullcircle.

AInc wants to get $ for every copy of OS4.
Ainc wants to get $ for every HW sold with OS4.
Ainc wants to get $$$$ for the pure fact that a HW can run OS4.

All that after contributing sweet nothing to the OS.....

So tell me, who has a cake-problem here ??

Surely asking too much for AOS4 would be a bad move by AInc.
However, I'd just like to point out how nobody of us really knows precisely what AInc demands, not to mention that nobody ever considers that AInc's demands may not be fixed for ever and all.

Quote:
Btw, Genesi never demanded "OS4 for free", they only demanded a free licence, and maybe a reasonable OEM price for the OS (or to be sold shrinkwrapped indepedant of them).

Has any official source of information leaked? How do you know about what Genesi asked for?

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 17-Dec-2006 at 03:12 PM.

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Kronos 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 15:40:38
#129 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2303
From: Unknown

@saimo

>SAM....


Well McBill was allways quite happy bout potential licencees that were still far in the future.

Sofar Amy is just a pipe-dream, only a nonworking proto that needs lots of redesign (to cut down the number of layers and other thinks) has been shown, actual product is still months (probraly several of them) away.

Sofar Amy does not have a licence, and being "confident" doesn't butter the toast here (as prooven by other attempts to get one).


>Genesi demands

Well offcourse I can only speak for what the demanded in public to counter all those claims that they demanded a "free OS4".

McBill did explictly mention a anual revenue of 500000$, and if he didn't mean it, why did he mention it ?

At a (realistic) revenue-rate of 10%, thats 5000000$ in turnover, or 10000 Sams per year, now how realistic ist that ? And more important why should he care ? For him (AInc) selling 5000 units of HW x and 5000 units of HW y should be the same than selling 10000 units of HW z.

For Hyperion on the other side it would be the difference in supporting one extra piece of HW.

So again, why should he care ??

Realistic demands would be:
Get xx$ for every OS4-copy sold by Hyperion (no matter what HW).
Get xxxx$ for HW to be labeled "Amiga".

_________________
- We don't need good ideas, we haven't run out on bad ones yet
- blame Canada

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:17:09
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:
Since you are not fully informed, I suggest you learn about the whole story before expressing any comment about it. This very thread is indeed a very good place to start from: read it thoroughly from the very beginning and you'll have a good picture of the situation.

Cut the bull and if I'm wrong tell me where exactly I got it wrong.
Quote:
Why, you expected me to provide false links? Do you realize how bad your insinuation is?

This now starting to resemble to much with paranoia, I just said to you that on the branch this discussion took place no references from THGM were made and as such they are OT (to the branch that is)
Quote:
I assume that the people who answer my posts at least know what I'm talking about in those posts. And indeed I do them a great favour by presenting precise references to the parts that would be unconvenient to report directly.

You assume others to do what yourself don't menage too...
Quote:
On the contrary, it only makes it worse because you have returned with the same, already countered argument once again. And it looks particularly bad especially now, after this acknowledgement of yours.

So Genesi's hardware isn't hardware? Happen to knows any other manufacturer bigger then Genesi that gives a flying F on AOS4?
My aknowledgemnt? Of what? That I didn't care with what you were saying? Ok m8 says a lot don't it?.... gee, beside I went on it again and went through the thread because you brought my name back, and I didn't quite agree with your wording so...
Quote:
What a pity that the answer was not as general as you're trying to make it look: the answer was about *Genesi's* hardware, not *any* hardware.

Last edited by pixie on 17-Dec-2006 at 04:22 PM.

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:20:20
#131 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:
@IonMane

Quote:
The only way Genesi could help is if they get a license.

Agreed.

saimo

And if they have a license they help AOS4 team through providing hardware... see the circle closing now?

_________________
Indigo 3D Lounge, my second home.
The Illusion of Choice | Am*ga

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
smithy 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:28:52
#132 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 28-Aug-2003
Posts: 364
From: Newcastle

@IonMane

Quote:

The only way Genesi could help is if they get a license.


The "license" is wrong on so many levels. It's almost a racket.

Quote:

Genesi wants thier cake and to eat it too, it has always been thus, and unlikely to change, IMO.


Just who needs the hardware the most? OS4 or Genesi?!

Imagine the scene, I'm hungry and starving and I need the food:

Stranger: Here you go smithy, here's some bread.
Me: NO! You can't give me any bread unless you pay me to accept it.
Stranger: Erm ok, here's 50p.
Me: NO! I will not accept or the food unless you prove you earn $500,000 per year.
Stranger: Um, go on, just take the bread, it will save you from starving.
Me: (extended period of silence)
Stranger: Take the bloody bread!
Me: I'm not talking to you any more.
Stranger: Oh look! I bet him over there will take the bread.
Me: (starved to death).

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:29:26
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
>SAM....

Well McBill was allways quite happy bout potential licencees that were still far in the future.

It would be interesting to have a look at all those licensees.
Could you provide a list of McEwen's expressions of happiness and confidence towards potential licensees (possibly as positive and open as in the SAM case)?

Quote:
Sofar Amy is just a pipe-dream, only a nonworking proto that needs lots of redesign (to cut down the number of layers and other thinks) has been shown, actual product is still months (probraly several of them) away.

I guess it's only by mistake that you use "Amy" instead of "SAM".
So, as regards SAM: it's more than just a "nonworking proto that needs lots of redesign". Since I cannot speak on behalf of the developers, I'll leave it to them filling in the blanks, if/when they feel like doing so.

Quote:
Sofar Amy does not have a licence, and being "confident" doesn't butter the toast here (as prooven by other attempts to get one).

How do you know that Amy does not have a license yet? And, even if so, does it mean it will never get one? Does the fact that others have been confident and seemigly failed mean also that SAM developers are doomed to fail?

Quote:
>Genesi demands

Well offcourse I can only speak for what the demanded in public to counter all those claims that they demanded a "free OS4".

Where are those public demands? You provided a quite specific list, and I honestly cannot remember anything like that being publically shared.

Quote:
McBill did explictly mention a anual revenue of 500000$, and if he didn't mean it, why did he mention it ?

He did mention that. No denying about it. But since each word of McEwen gets questioned, why ever that line cannot be questioned as well? Moreover, why would that be set in stone forever? What if AInc realized/realizes that it is unrealistic demand? What if that may vary according to the other party? What if that may vary according to other factors? What if that's just a straightforward lie? - I could make conjectures about why he lied, but what would be the use?

Oh, well, I've written - going OT - already too much. Why do we always have to waste time on assumptions and (more or less wild) speculations? I personally don't want to go into yet another AInc-(VS-Hyperion-)VS-Genesi thread.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Darrin 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:31:34
#134 ]
Team Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 1941
From: Lake Charles, USA

@pixie

Quote:

And if they have a license they help AOS4 team through providing hardware... see the circle closing now?


I think you're wasting your time. Everyone else can see how Gensei can help with an EFIKA/OS4 combination, but it's honestly like trying to explain colour to a blind man to this guy. I think he's just deliberately trying to wind us up.

_________________
AmigaOne X1000, A4000(T), A3000, A2000, A1200(T), A1200, A500, CD32, Minimig+ARM, FPGA Arcade, Chameleon64, C-One, C128, C128D, C64C, C64, VIC-20, CBM 8032, CBM4032, Efika, Ultimate64

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Zardoz 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:35:35
#135 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:
**what* Genesi can do to help and *how* Genesi can do it.


Actually, in all fairness, I don't see one point brought up: Why would Genesi or any other manufacturer want to pay for a licence for something that will not bring them any large profits? Businesses are not charities. Amiga Inc. does not want to understand that they are not a giant that controls a huge market and can impose such nonsense. They should be allowing OS4 to be porting to anything that can sell enough to bring them some profits and keep them floating. *NO* sane hardware manufacturer of any reasonable size will ever pay for such a licence.

In my opinion, Amiga Inc's stance is destroying the investement and efforts of a whole team, including Hyperion.

Last edited by AMiGR on 17-Dec-2006 at 04:38 PM.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:38:42
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@pixie

I don't know if it's because of language barriers, because you want to play games, because you don't want to listen to what I say, because you can't grasp it, because you are too tired, because you are answering in a hurry, because you are a cheerleader, because we live in different worlds, because we just cannot look at the same thing and see the same thing, because or whatever or a mix of whoknowswhat... anyway, I'm tired of repeating the same things over and over again and I feel I've already done my best to explain my reasons to you. The information contributed by me and other in this thread are sufficient to get a grasp of the situation between AInc and Genesi: if you *really* want know and understand, consider reading it.
I feel like I've been wasting my time.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:42:57
#137 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@pixie

(re-arraging thing for quote levels limits)
Quote:
IonMane wrote:

The only way Genesi could help is if they get a license.

Quote:
saimo wrote:

Agreed.

Quote:

pixie wrote:

And if they have a license they help AOS4 team through providing hardware... see the circle closing now?

This *is* offensive
But I guess trying to explain you why would be just another waste of time...
/me sighs

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:43:42
#138 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@Darrin

Quote:
I think you're wasting your time. Everyone else can see how Gensei can help with an EFIKA/OS4 combination, but it's honestly like trying to explain colour to a blind man to this guy. I think he's just deliberately trying to wind us up.

Just baseless accusations that deserve nothing but an abuse report

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Zardoz 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:47:06
#139 ]
Team Member
Joined: 13-Mar-2003
Posts: 4261
From: Unknown

@saimo

Quote:
This *is* offensive
But I guess trying to explain you why would be just another waste of time...
/me sighs


Maybe I've missed something, I haven't *carefully* read the posts of this thread, but how is it offensive? I don't see any attacks towards your person.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 17-Dec-2006 16:47:27
#140 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@AMiGR

Quote:
Actually, in all fairness, I don't see one point brought up: Why would Genesi or any other manufacturer want to pay for a licence for something that will not bring them any large profits? Businesses are not charities.

That's true. And I don't know. Genesi is seeking for a license. People around here are screaming continuously that Genesi should get a license (some go as far as claiming that they already have a license).

Quote:
Amiga Inc. does not want to understand that they are not a giant that controls a huge market and can impose such nonsense.

That's true as well. If they are behaving the way you are depicting here, they are doing a pretty bad job.

Quote:
They should be allowing OS4 to be porting to anything that can sell enough to bring them some profits and keep them floating.

That's true, but there *are* other deciding factors when choosing partners.

Quote:
*NO* sane hardware manufacturer of any reasonable size will ever pay for such a licence.

Well, who really knows how much the license is, after all?

Quote:
In my opinion, Amiga Inc's stance is destroying the investement and efforts of a whole team, including Hyperion.

That would be very, very sad. I hope it is not so.

saimo

_________________
RETREAM - retro dreams for Amiga, Commodore 64 and PC

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle