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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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Gleng 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 14:35:42
#181 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Dec-2004
Posts: 1071
From: Blighty

@BobW
Quote:
For a large part is was a dead computer in the States 14 years ago.

To be fair, the Amiga was much, much more popular in the UK and Europe than in the US. The Amiga was still the leading computer in the UK up until around 1994-ish.

PCs didn't really start taking over as the multimedia desktop computer of choice here in the UK until about 1995-1996-ish.

I didn't get a PC until 1998, when I decided that I really had to play Star Wars Rebellion and Baldur's Gate.

EDIT: I guess I'm saying that the Amiga name is probably still worth something here in the UK and in Europe, but that value is dropping rapidly.

Last edited by Gleng on 18-Dec-2006 at 02:37 PM.

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Kronos 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 14:57:21
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2303
From: Unknown

@Samwel

Quote:

Samwel wrote:


As I said, and the court felt the same it seems, get economic compensation for loss or actually getting the product in the contract yes, but demanding another product instead than the original contract was for?!? No court will allow that.


If the product in question offers something similar to the one orginaly in the contract, sure.....

Just like if one piece of HW fails within warranty (Amiga companies excluded) and they just don't have any 2GHz P4 or 60GB HD, do you really think you get the next bigger model just because they want to be nice ?? No, they do it because every judge would order them to if such a case was brought to court.

Now, we don't know what kind of DE was orginally described in that contract, and how far it would have been from what OS4 is now, but it was clearly worth a try (and therefore not stupid), and the judge decided that AInc should try again to fullfill the orginal contract (which they can't). If the same case comes back to the judge cos AInc failed to comply he might be more willing to follow BBRV's thread of argumentation.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 15:17:07
#183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@pixie

Unless your behaviour changes, I guess this is going to be the last time ever I bother answering you. I'm investing my time in this just to prove once again how unrespectfully you behave and to justify my abuse report.

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@saimo
You got some serious issues understanding english* m8...

I'm able to interact with others in this and other places without any major language barrier.

Quote:
This and the problems you have towards me quoting you, it's unbelievable....

What is unbelievable is that you make this childish remark in a thread where it is publically evident how I don't have any trouble handling the "pressure" of your quotes.

Quote:
Care to explain on just on how, having access to Genesi hardware wouldn't benefit AmigaOS 4 team?

Now, the points above are nothing compared to this jem.
First off, I *never*, *ever* asserted that AOS4 would not benefit from being ported to Genesi platforms. You just repeated this argument you fabricated yourself in order to attack me.
Then, let's see how shamefully low(er) you got. In your previous post , you extrapolated a line of my reply to stew to attack me in a childish (to say the least..) way. Just a little above the line you reported, you can find this other line from me: "The possibility itself of running AOS4 on Genesi's boards would be certainly a very good thing for AOS4, Hyperion, Amiga, Genesi and the whole community."
You are ignoring what I say and repeating the same fabrications of your mind ad nauseam in order to discredit me (and who knows for what other reason).
You made me waste a lot of time and energies, you attacked me without any reason, you played tricks on me, you insulted me in several ways. Saying that you have been trolling is perhaps reductive.

Quote:
And as a side note I don't see you pushing your agenda toward the others solutions which, despite all the good intentions don't have license from Amiga INC, and many don't have even hardware...

My agenda?!? Laughable. I am *not* affiliated in any way with any commercial entity in and out of the Amiga market. Yet another false and gratuitious accusation.

Quote:
PS- while labeling others of trolls you start to resemble each day more with Atheist. Let me just ask you, trolling a troll isn't trolling?

NB- you still fail to answer just on how you find that remark offensive, is it because I'm not calling you a fanboy or a cheerleader? Because I don't accuse you of playing games? I don't know, if I done that would you feel better? More at ease with me? The need some have of mirrors...

The only thing I failed at is understanding that trying to talk to you is useless.

saimo

Last edited by saimo on 18-Dec-2006 at 03:18 PM.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 15:28:09
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@falemagn

Quote:
how exactly are you going to convince anyone to buy something that they, by your very admission, don't need?


I buy lots of stuff I don't need. Xbox360, xbox,. PS2, iBook, home theater projector, 20" widescreen LCD flat panel monitor sitting here connected to nothing right now, home improvement magazines, headlamp for my bicycle, DVDs, I could go on and on. Need id not necessarily the only deciding factor.

Is it not in any way possible in this universe to end up in a situation where someone wants OS4 even though Windows could serve the same purpose? Why did that set-top box company try to negotiate an OS4 license instead of going with an established OS from the beginning? Need was apparently not the only reason to do something there. OK, only one example, but you gotta start somewhere. Why did the Samantha people bother if there is no need for it? Why have there been people requesting OS4 ports to Pegasos2 and Macs for so long if there is no need for it? Why are you or I or any of us here on this web site discussing these Amiga-related topics if there is no need for any of it?

Last edited by billt on 18-Dec-2006 at 03:56 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 15:40:17
#185 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@Kronos

Quote:
Kronos wrote:

Just because someone is (constantly) disagreeing with you and yes a very different point of view (which you might not understand) doesn't mean he's insulting you.

First off, show me where I failed to understand what was being told me.
Secondly, show me where I accused anybody of insulting me without explaining why, using sound arguments.
Thirdly, if you have something to say about my insult reports, do it in the proper context, relatively to each case: a general reprimand like makes it look like I throw accusations without motivation and consequently minimize the insults I've received.

Quote:
Otherwise I would have to feel insulted by you, IonMane and a bunch of others

When you feel insulted by me, just tell me and, if you deem it necessary, hit the abuse report.
Please refrain from this general reprimands.

Quote:
Sometimes I really wonder do you (and some others blowing into that same horn) really have such thin skin, or is it that you just want to feel insulted so you can easily dismiss oppsoing viewpoints.....

Hopeless

saimo

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 15:50:19
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12392
From: Norway

@falemagn

Quote:

falemagn wrote:

No, really, given that you agreed with the fact that "there's basically nothing that today AmigaOS4 can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already", how exactly are you going to convince anyone to buy something that they, by your very admission, don't need?


No, really, given that you agreed with the fact that "there's basically nothing that today AROS can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already", how exactly are you going to convince anyone to buy something that they, by your very admission, don't need?

Common Rogue is not sales man, you know that don’t you? It’s not up to Rogue to market OS4.

Way do is there so many types of cars in the world? Way do people buy them when they only need a Ford?

Way do people buy Zeta when they can use windows?
Way do people buy Mac when they can use standard PC/Windows?
Way do people buy RiscOS when they can use standard PC/Windows?
Way do people buy QNX when they can use standard PC/Windows?
Way do people buy RedHat Linux when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy SUSE Linux when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy Debian Linux when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy YellowDog Linux when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy Solaris when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy Unix when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy NetBSD when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy FreeBSD when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy C64/C128 computers to day when they can use Windows?
Way do people buy PSP and XBOX when they can buy standard PC?
Way do you continue to work on AROS when you know Windows exists?

Common is not about need it, you can’t eat computers, computers do not keep you warm, you can do every thing whit a pen and some pair and mail box, so way do you need a computer?

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Dec-2006 at 03:59 PM.

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 15:59:20
#187 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@billt

Bill, Bill... please, mind the context in which things are said. By "need" I didn't refer to something that is necessary for you to survive, rather to something which you feel compelled to have, for whatever reason.

Quote:

Is it not in any way possible in this universe to end up in a situation where someone wants OS4 even though Windows could serve the same purpose?


Sure it's possible, people here wanting AOS4 and only AOS4 prove just that. The problem is, they represent a tiny fraction of an already tiny market that was there 5 years ago and that now has shrunk so much that I fail to see how it can be economically viable.

Don't make me quote Rogue for the n-th time, where he says that only Amiga-fanatics would buy AmigaOS4. If even he says that, who am I to disagree?

Quote:

Why did that set-top box company try to negotiate an OS4 license instead of going with an established OS from the beginning?


Because they "loved the Amiga and wanted it to succeed", that's what they told me. Obviously that didn't make any economic sense, so in the end they first decided to go for AROS, and then switched architecture altogether. Of course their choice was to use linux.

Quote:

Need was apparently not the only reason to do something there. OK, only one example, but you gotta start somewhere. Why did the Samantha people bother if there is no need for it?


Are you suggesting all business ideas are sound? Just because someone decides to start a business it doesn't mean that business will be successfull or makes sense at all.

Quote:

Why have there been people requesting OS4 ports to Pegasos2 and Macs for so long if there is no need for it?


Bill, because if AmigaOS4 wants to have even just one single chance of at least paying back for its development, that's the most sensible thing one could do. I myself have said that I'd buy it, if it were sold at no more than 50 EUR and available for common hardware. Although mine would just be a curiosity buy and no guarantee of continuous usage - but hey, at least they would get some money back!

Quote:

Why are you or I or any of us here on this web site discussing these Amiga-related topics if there is no need for any of it?


I don't know about you, but I already answered a few posts earlier for what concerns me: in my case, it's mere curiosity.

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jkirk 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:04:34
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa)

@pixie

Quote:

pixie wrote:
@jkirk

Quote:
no amount of twisting what saimo says will change that.

Your'e reading too much into my words... I state what you stated, the obvious... the precise way Genesi could help AOS4Team, nothing more nothing less... but, might I ask you since you referred it, what twists exactly I made?


if no twists why keep fussing with him since you agree with what he said?

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falemagn 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:04:53
#189 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Nov-2003
Posts: 1126
From: Italy

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

No, really, given that you agreed with the fact that "there's basically nothing that today AROS can do for anyone that some other OS's out there don't do already", how exactly are you going to convince anyone to buy something that they, by your very admission, don't need?


I'm not selling AROS, am I? Case closed.

Quote:

Common Rogue is not sales man, you know that don’t you? It’s not up to Rogue to market OS4.


It's not about marketing, it's about making money out of one's work. Surely before starting a business you should at least have an idea on how you're going to make money from it? Otherwise, admit it's just a hobby and be done with it.

Quote:

Way do is there so many types of cars in the world? Way do people buy them when they only need a Ford?


And who said they only need a Ford?

Anyway, rather than asking me the inverse question, try to answer the direct question? Who needs/wants AmigaOS4 (apart from the few fanatics living around here)?

It's a simple question, should warrant a simple answer.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:08:17
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@Kronos

Quote:
McBill made it quite clear that they would support projects which don't generate 500000$ in anual revenue.


Link please? Last I remember hearing anything from McBill was the 20 answers and then some follow-up to discussion about same, but I don't remember anything about that. I think his coment on that was about a company with 500K annual revenue or higher, so a particular single project doesn't need to get that much, but the collective projects of a single organization should add up to that. I'd really really love for your statement there to be true, but I don't believe it without some support behind it.

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opi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:10:04
#191 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
Way do people buy Zeta when they can use windows?


Because they like BeOS and Zeta's upgraded BeOS you can buy TODAY.

Quote:
Way do people buy Mac when they can use standard PC/Windows?


MacOS provides a lot fun stuff. People like how OS works. They can also do ALL the work that could be done in Windows. No viruses.

Quote:
Way do people buy RiscOS when they can use standard PC/Windows?


Hobbists. Much like Amigans. But they have Fx.

Quote:
Way do people buy QNX when they can use standard PC/Windows?


To do RTOS/Embedded stuff.

Quote:
Way do people buy RedHat Linux when they can use Windows?


The best enterprise support for Linux.

Quote:
Way do people buy SUSE Linux when they can use Windows?


Lots of innovation is happening there.

Quote:
Way do people buy Debian Linux when they can use Windows?


Stable. Social contract. Good community. Awsome base system.

Quote:
Way do people buy YellowDog Linux when they can use Windows?


Don't know. It was know from additional work on PPC/Mac. YD was Value Add Reseller for Apple.

Quote:
Way do people buy Solaris when they can use Windows?


It's an OS that runs Fortune 500 servers. Stable, dozen of super things like ZFS, Zones, DTrace.

Quote:
Way do people buy Unix when they can use Windows?


UNIX's a brand.

Quote:
Way do people buy NetBSD when they can use Windows?


Clean codebase.

Quote:
Way do people buy FreeBSD when they can use Windows?


High performance BSD licenced OS.

Quote:
Way do people buy C64/C128 computers to day when they can use Windows?


They do? Care to point me? And I'm not talking about hobby. Hobby != running as your main machine.

Quote:
Way do people buy PSP and XBOX when they can buy standard PC?


Why do people shave with razors, not rock? Game consoles run games. Portable game consoles runs games.

Quote:
Way do you continue to work on AROS when you know Windows exists?


Becasue people like to work on funny thing. Research. Fix. You know? There's a world benoyd Windows.

You see, every OS you named (except for RISCOS) has legs to stand on thier own. People are using it becasue it solves problems. There's a brand of hobby OSes, sure. But you can prove that AmigaOS is not a hobby OS asking why people running Solaris, MacOSX or Linux instead of Windows. That proves nothing.

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jkirk 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:12:10
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jan-2005
Posts: 3349
From: Georgia (usa)

@falemagn

Quote:
Who needs/wants AmigaOS4 (apart from the few fanatics living around here)?


irrelevant the question is whether or not aos4 will get to a point in which marketing can make joe blow BELIEVE he needs/wants aos4.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:16:06
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@Benji

Quote:
Quote:
DE runs on Linux. Linux exists for PowerPC.


But AFAIK there is no PPC Linux "DE" player, which is down to TAO?


Still, if that's true, it's still going to be easier/quicker than an OS4 port/merge. Intent/DE already works with the Linux API, it does not already work with the AmigaOS4 API. Which do you think is quicker to do?

Port intent from Linux-x86 to Linux-PPC, port DE mods from Linux-x86 to Linux-PPC

OR

Port intent from x86 to AmigaOS4-PPC, port DE mods from x86 to AmigaOS4-PPC

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jorkany 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 16:22:44
#194 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 920
From: Space Coast

@falemagn,
Quote:
how exactly are you going to convince anyone to buy something that they, by your very admission, don't need?

Pretty much by definition anything that is advertised is not something that you "need". Yet advertising works pretty well.


@billt,
Quote:
Why are you or I or any of us here on this web site discussing these Amiga-related topics if there is no need for any of it?

It's more a question of desire than need. Hopefully most people are here because they have fond memories of a time when the Amiga was the coolest system around - perhaps some still feel that way. Some apparently feel a sense of being a rebel when using the Amiga.

I think the problem comes in when you have people and/or companies who make unrealistic claims and then, predictably, fail to live up to those claims. Amiga history over the last six or so years is rife with this kind of stuff. Then you have those who will believe anything and support the hype, you end up just where things are today.

Contrast this to the C64 community. To my knowledge no-one is obsessed with coming up with a C64 NG system. Nobody thinks the C64 is going to rise from the ashes and change the world. Looking in it seems the C64 is accepted for what it is. By focusing on what can be done with a C64 instead of trying to make the C64 into something other than what it is, the C64 community has done some very cool stuff and has attracted interest from people who didn't grow up with it. I know a lot more people in their 20s who think the C64 is a cool, fun, hackable system than people who think that way about the Amiga - provided they have even heard of the Amiga.

Getting back to the Amiga NG stuff, sure there are some things out there that a few people are interested in, primarily because they know the Amiga and have been waiting a very long time for this stuff to appear. The problem though is sustainability. To Falemagn's point, how do you convince people that they should have any interest in OS4, MOS, AROS, or Amiga NG hardware if they don't already have an interest in the Amiga? If you have known the Amiga for years you might have some opinion as to why it is better than other OSes, but to this date I have yet to have seen any evidence that anyone unfamiliar with the Amiga has been convinced that there is any reason to make whatever investment (time or money) is required to "get into" Amiga NG. So far it seems to be entirely people who had so-called "classic" Amigas, and not even very many of them. It's not so much a question of popularity as it is sustainability, and unfortunately sustainability is one of those features that helps make a platform attractive.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 18:33:16
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12392
From: Norway

@jorkany

I have shown AmigaOS4 to a few and they are impressed whit the speed, and flexibility of the system and it simplicity, and when I show them they can used for video, mp3, etc. then they start getting interested, but when start web browser and show them how bad it is to view CSS pages and office applications they are quickly turned off.

So if AmigaOS4 is going be product of any interest then IB needs CSS quickly and we need programs like Open Office, every one knows what that program can do, and we need to get up to standards on USB2 and Bluetooth, and connectivity, web cams, and every thing else out there.

I think have walked a long way in the right direction, but there is a few things remaining, SMP is not that important, but next OS versions most try decrees the number of permit() / forbid() in the OS, and replace them whit a device IO, or locks/unlock, in Linux there some thing called spinlock part of the SMP implementation,

Protect more of the API’s, from heck attempts (patches), if we need to warp some thing then that should be done throw a separate library interface, patch the programs not the OS!

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 18:39:08
#196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12392
From: Norway

@falemagn

Quote:
It's a simple question, should warrant a simple answer.


A simple question do not always give a simple answer, when you taking about way some buys a green apple and or banana, apple and banana can satisfy your hunger, and your selection might not be consistent from day to day, for example I bet most members of Amigaworld do own a PC and maybe a Mac or even a C64, I don’t know if you have noticed the number of collectors that own almost every Amiga model.

Hey lets have look at Individual computers what are they selling, way do any one buy this types of products? It might be geek products or maybe a tiny market whit only a few that needs them, lots market analyzing is based on ebay trading, what old products are sold for on the secondary market.

So Amiga.org / Amigaworld members are buying used Amiga1200/4000/500/2000 computers because they love them, there are absolutely no sane valid argument way some one should buy any of that, and I can’t even give you an answer.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Dec-2006 at 06:48 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Dec-2006 at 06:47 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Dec-2006 at 06:41 PM.

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pixie 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 19:53:36
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 2821
From: Figueira da Foz - Portugal

@jkirk

Because I haven't?

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 20:00:27
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@falemagn

Quote:
Who needs/wants AmigaOS4 (apart from the few fanatics living around here)?


Interesting way to state the question, which comes across as "Apart from people who need/want AmigaOS4, who needs/wants AmigaOS4?" That's a well crafted question. Make the only valid answer to the question as it is worded to be "nobody", by excluding any other possible answer. I see. Cool.

No, Sony, Tivo, Nintendo, etc. are not beating down our doors that we in the public community are aware of. But Smiths Aerospace seems to have been interested in a component of OS4. So the effort has seen some benefit to someone, and all is not a total waste. Why didn't they just go to ATI, or just go to open-source? Why not get it from MacOS/Apple? Why not QNX? Why did they pick Hyperion's Radeon stuff instead of other options? Surely there must have been some reason to do that, as I don't see Smiths Aerospace on this site posting like the rest of us fanatics to show their unreasonable obsession with OS4. Surely Smiths had some idea on how they're going to make money from this situation before they got themselves into it?

Quote:
Surely before starting a business you should at least have an idea on how you're going to make money from it? Otherwise, admit it's just a hobby and be done with it.


Most OS4 coders do treat it as a hobby interest. I say most because there are some that I haven't seen their opinion to know what it is. Other than those OS4 coders who are expecting to get rich from their work on OS4, who else expects to get rich from their work on OS4? Nobody of course. If it ever does find a system vendor that can make it profitable to everyone involved, that's be very very cool. If that never happens, most of the developers will still be happy if us few fanatics living around here enjoy it. Just because you or I don't know where zillions of dollars will come from doesn't mean that Hyperion hasn't thought about this problem. Just because we don't know the results of such deliberations publically doesn't mean those deliberations never happened.

Why does the fact that Hyperion would like to charge money for OS4 bother you? Why does it bother you that Hyperion decided to get into this business of wanting to make money from OS4? If you think it's a terrible money-losing mistake, allow them the right to make that mistake. Allow the developers to make their own mistakes. Allow me to waste as much money as I see fit on something terribly rediculous if I choose to do so. I don't need to be saved. Maybe Hyperion and their developers don't want or need to be saved from financial doom either.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 20:24:14
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@opi

Quote:
Quote:
Way do people buy C64/C128 computers to day when they can use Windows?


They do? Care to point me? And I'm not talking about hobby. Hobby != running as your main machine.


http://c64upgra.de/c-one/
http://www.amazon.com/Commodore-64-Games-One-Joystick/dp/B000701CSM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C64_Direct-to-TV


Why exclude hobby? Why do people buy Windows PCs? A lot only buy them to play videogames. Is playing a Videogame not a hobby? If it is some other category, what categry is that? What about arts/craft stores? Lots of people buy things to use in making crafts as a hobby, but the Micheals stores around here make a lot of money from these hobbyists. Should tool stores stop selling to a friend of mine who buys saws, sanding machines, and other tools only to build his own furniture? He's not doing that for profit, so it must be a hobby, but the tool stores still made money selling to him.

Honestly, why do hobby and money have to be seperated so far apart for you guys? It is possible to make money selling to hobbyists, or else there would be no Xbox, PS2/3, fiction books, tools for everyday people who are not high-profit business professionals in whatever they use their tools for

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opi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 18-Dec-2006 21:02:58
#200 ]
Team Member
Joined: 2-Mar-2005
Posts: 2752
From: Poland

@billt

Quote:
Why exclude hobby?


Simple. Poster, who wrote prev pice of post sugested that people all over the world are using OS that are alternative to Windows. OK. No problem with that. But if you're placing Solaris, MacOSX, QNX and Linux in same line as C64 and AOS4 you'll get wrong conclusions.

There's nothing wrong with hobby computing. But ALL (except for C64 (but that's HW) AROS and RISCOS) are still used to do "Real Job". You can't just put them on same level and claim: See, people are using non-Windows computers and that's because our hobby OS is a killer.

Quote:
Honestly, why do hobby and money have to be seperated so far apart for you guys?


Maybe it's language problem on my side. Cash and hobby are friends. I'd say, hobbist tend to spend more on thier toys that pros.

Analogy (quick, call Analogy Police): I have a bass guitar. It's so-so. I sucks at it. I call it hobby. I buy stuff and try to learn some new tricks (Damn you, Flea!). Someone skilled could just get my bass and play something nice. So, I have a tool that helps me with a hobby but in hands of pro it can be used to do Real Stuff. (Linux, QNX, Solaris, MacOSX and Windows can be used like that)

Now, if I'll buy two strings, a plank and some nails, then put it all together in a garage I'll have something that prenteds bass guitar. Was it fun to do it? Hell yeah! Do I enjoy tweaking it? Sure! Can I be proud of my little music experiment? I hope so. With a little luck I can even make it sound nice. But a pro will not be able just get it and use it on next Victor Wooten's, RHCP or Primus CD. That's hobby hobby. We like it, we won't beat all the Jazz Fenders with it, it's fun sometimes it can still amaze -- it's AmigaOS, MorphOS, SkyOS and all the hobby-hobby kind.

It's fscking great to have a hobby. It's fscking pointless to argue over it.

That's what C64 guys got right. That's what AmigaOS fans got wrong.

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