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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Reality check
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Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:20:23
#41 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
But Hyperion entertainment demanded that MorphOS must support WarpUp kernel and Hyperion found lack of WarpUp support problematic.


You are giving much credit to Hyperion in this respect. The decisions where done by Amiga, this was all about getting us to join in; they wouldn't have needed to go along with it.

Quote:
Especially Ben Hermans was very unhappy due to lack of WarpUp support.


No surprise, all our games where based on WarpUp. Nowadays it isn't such a problem anymore since these are pretty old now.

Quote:
And at least my understanding at that time was that WarpUp was meant to be new AmigaOS as well. WarpUp guru Steffen Haeuser was for WarpUp based AmigaOS...


Yes, that is what I stated, didn't I? Only when we found out how it looks on the inside did we turn away from that idea.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:21:37
#42 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:

itix wrote:
Were you living on Mars last 5 years? According to Amiga Inc, OS4 was always part of AmigaDE. Fleecy told imaginary stories how OS4 would go cross platform and integrated into DE.

I have never, ever read anything like that. At most, one of the visions was that at some point a AmigaDE (in a somewhat reduced form with respect to the original idea) would be integrated into AmigaOS.
But let's have a look this list - a few documents are missing, but the list is good enough anyway.
On Jan 8th, 2000, AInc and Tao announce their partnership. I can't remember if at that time AmigaDE had already been mentioned, but it does not matter much as, few days later, Fleecy talks about the "digital universe" and the base concepts behind the AmigaDE.
On September 28th, 2000, AmigaDE gets mentioned along with AmigaOS 3.5 at that time, not even AmigaOS 3.9 existed!
In November 2000 Bill McEwen considers for the first time the possibility of releasing AOS4, *for the classic platform*.
Finally, on April 1st, 2001, Fleecy talks about AmigaDE integrated into AmigaOS 4; note that:


  • it's not AmigaOS 4 integrated into AmigaDE, but the other way around;
  • Fleecy talks about two distinct worlds; while they are able to work together and offer a unified environment, they still are two separate and distinct entities.

Aside from these documents, I've never seen a roadmap/plan where AmigaOS would incorporated into AmigaDE: it's always been the other way around (f.ex. when AmigaOS 5 was told to be result of AmigaOS 4 + AmigaDE (player)).

saimo

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hatschi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:35:17
#43 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:

Finally, on April 1st, 2001, Fleecy talks about AmigaDE integrated into AmigaOS 4; note that:

  • it's not AmigaOS 4 integrated into AmigaDE, but the other way around;


And only two days later, Gary Peake tries to clarify the following email conversation:

Quote:
> > From: "Steve & Ulli Bowman"
> >> I don't get that. I thought the whole point of DE was that it was
> >> scaleable, from PDA to desktop. Maybe I've misunderstood, but I thought
> >> once AOS5 was reached, AOS4 and DE would be integrated under the one
> >> banner, as a single product.
> >
> > You got that right


Among other fluff, he makes this statement:

Quote:
AmigaOS will continue to be developed and will be merged into or under AmigaDE so that we eventually have our own familiar base to play on and it will be a full AMIGA base that is server capable and cell phone capable as well.


So what? AmigaDE being integrated into AmigaOS4 which will be "merged into or under AmigaDE"?
Do you really believe that they ever knew what they were talking about? Does it really make a difference? Is it really wise to start comparing something real and somewhat tangible (OS4) with something imaginary such as AmigaDE - or debate about Amiga Inc.'s woolly "plans" with AmigaDE or OS5 at that time ?
At least I wouldn't want to be the lawyer that has/had to sort out all this esoteric AmigaDE humbug.

Last edited by hatschi on 14-Dec-2006 at 03:42 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:37:55
#44 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@stew

Quote:

stew wrote:

I recall that OS4 was touted as only a start. There was supposed to be a progression 4.0 - 4.2 ect.. until the "Holy Grail" of 5.0, at which we reached the run anywhere Amiverse.

Yes, the AmigaOS 4 -> AmigaOS 5 was (is) one of the plans and involved AmigaDE as a component to be integrated into AmigaOS 4.

Quote:
Is 4.0 an update or precursor? Is the precursor included in the contract?

I've already mentioned this in some post above, so I'll keep it short:


  • no, AmigaOS 4 is not an update of AmigaDE because AmigaDE is based on a totally different technology and on a totally different concept; AmigaOS 4.0 is a (massive) update of - guess what - AmigaOS 3.9;
  • no, AmigaOS 4 is not a precursor of AmigaDE because AmigaDE was conceived way before AmigaOS 4 (even before AmigaOS 3.9!) and based on a different technology (Tao's intent).

And, even assuming the absurdity that AmigaOS 4 is a precursor of AmigaDE, how could a *precursor* be included in a contract that mentions AmigaDE and its future updates is beyond me.

Quote:
I guess I am not as understanding of contractual legalisms as you because it still looks muddy to me. I am a building contractor and have been burned by not being real specific in making contracts. Two parties can understand the same words in two different ways. That is why, unfortunately, lawyers get involved. For me it was cheaper to take a loss rather than pay a lawyer. Anybody have gold plated bathroom fixtures? I know a customer that does. Real Au!

You are right. Interpretation of contracts is a delicate thing. Lawyers and judges may make things muddy, even when they are not.

saimo

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Rogue 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:43:19
#45 ]
OS4 Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jul-2003
Posts: 3999
From: Unknown

@redrumloa

Quote:
Others also claim this demand was due to a certain other company who was porting games at the time to twist Amiga Inc's arm with a proposal full of wildly unrealistic goals.


Interesting how one's "wildly unrealistic goals" can be another's reasonable demand. Having access to the source code (we talk about read access without turning over any IP) is IMO essential to pinpoint problems, but apparently, others think different.

But then, we all know how evil Hyperion is.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:50:15
#46 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:
...with a fuzzy "attempts in that direction" and a link that did not answer the "who?" nor did it exactly say "where".
It's always a good idea to provide some clear references, links, quotes before making statements as you did earlier in this thread (e.g. "hammering into the head", "insult at the community."). This is especially useful if you start a new thread that appears like an offspring of another one and seems to allude to something posted somewhere else.
Not everyone might share/grasp your feeling of "being insulted", therefore maybe you could give them (and me) a better hint where to find this insult - otherwise they might think you are exaggerating only to bring the point home.

I'll let the others think that I'm exaggerating and that I want to bring the point home. I don't care. What I care about is the point of this thread (AmigaOS supposedly being (part/relative of) AmigaDE) which is indipendent from my own perception of the "hammering". The introduction was just that, an explanation of why I felt the need to do a reality check. That's it.

saimo

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hatschi 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 15:57:38
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 1-Dec-2005
Posts: 2328
From: Good old Europe.

@saimo

Quote:
saimo wrote:
Aside from these documents, I've never seen a roadmap/plan where AmigaOS would incorporated into AmigaDE


So what about this link then? Apparently, you stopped exactly two days before - 1st April [sic!] 2001.

Quote:
AmigaOS will continue to be developed and will be merged into or under AmigaDE so that we eventually have our own familiar base to play on and it will be a full AMIGA base that is server capable and cell phone capable as well.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 16:00:41
#48 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@redrumloa

Quote:
Who said that?

Since the point I wanted to make is that AmigaOS and AmigaDE are two different things, discussing the reason that moved me is not interesting and only contributes to raising confusion. I'd like to avoid that.

Quote:
Speaking for myself, all I am saying is Thendic has a legal leg to stand on against Amiga Inc. I am not drawing conclusions to a forced Hyperion OS4 on Genesi hardware.

I'm not sure I get it. Could you clarify, please?

Quote:
I do however find it odd that people were so resistant to OS4 on available working hardware. How would OS4 on the Peg 2 hav been bad? How would it in Efika be bad?

Nowhere in this thread I talked about an AOS4 port to EFIKA/Pegasos; I did not talk about porting AOS4 at all; indeed, I even explicitly mentioned that this is not the place for yet another port-AOS-to-X debate.

saimo

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 16:09:12
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@redrumloa

Quote:

redrumloa wrote:
Whoa! Calm down!

Who told you I'm not calm?

Quote:
The history rewrite here is by Amiga Inc themselves and a few individuals who apparently do not remember the history well. Who is trying to claim HyperionOS4 is AmigaDE? Point this out to me please.

Firstly, I said that somebody is trying to say that "AmigaOS 4 is (part/relative of) AmigaDE", not that "HyperionOS4 is AmigaDE". Secondly, as already said, that was just part of the explanation about why I felt the need to do a reality check: that's my own perception and anybody is free to disagree... I don't care. Let's discuss about AmigaOS 4 and AmigaDE, not about why saimo wants to discuss about them

saimo

edit: missed the last "not"

Last edited by saimo on 14-Dec-2006 at 04:32 PM.

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 16:19:37
#50 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@tonyw

Quote:
I don't remember exactly when in that sequence Bernie Meyer et al released Amithlon, but I do remember McEwen saying "This is going to save us eighteen months!". That comment suggests that there was an intent to port AOS to some platform other than 68K, possibly to the platform-agnostic DE/AA.


There was a show somewhere that Bernie and friends showed Amithlon to McEwen, and very shortly after, perhaps even at the same show, McEwen was excited and talking about Amithlon as the path to AmigaOS (not DE) on x86 in addition to the PPC path. I don't remember who was doing OS4 at the time, if it was H&P or if it had changed to Hyperion yet, but PPC had already been chosen as successor to 68K.

I do remember AI announcing DE and many of us in the community at large not being impressed, as we wanted AmigaOS which was not part of any plan whatsoever for quite a while at Amino/Amiga Inc.

Someone in the Efika thread mentioned that AmigaDE had also been referred to as "Amiga OS4" for a while before any product we the community would consider to be "Amiga OS" was allowed to happen. I only ever remember DE being named DE, and nothing else until AmigaAnywhere. Does anyone else remember this OS4 == DE naming scheme? I never saw any of those roadmap handouts and was never part of any internal or NDAed discussions so was never privvy to some possible statements to that effect myself, and I don't remember ever hearing any public mention of that from anyone. I'd have thought such a thing strange, and because of that I would think I'd remember hearing something to that effect.

I do remember Software Hut selling some x86 systems for DE development, I don't remember if those carried the dAmiga brand mentioned in the Efika thread. I don't know if that's important or not, I never really cared about DE enough to pay attention to brand names or model names of DE development platforms. I did get the DE SDK and both the Windows and Linux party packs though.

I don't htink I ever got the SDK installed though, as it required a very particular version of Red Hat Linux at the time which was not the newest version. Something about ncurses if I remember, AI called it a bug in ncurses. But from what I remember, ncurses changed and the rest of the known universe moved on with the new version, only AI clutched to dearly to the obsolete version. Why didn't AI embrace the new version, recompile, and be ready for the future of Linux? I couldn't wrap my head around that situation and really wasn't interested in going with a new platform that steadfastly refused to keep up with its only host OS of the day. If I remember correctly, which I might not, the SDK ONLY ran on Red Hat 6.1, 7.x was available and 6.2 could be found for download relatively easily, but finding 6.1 was more hassle than I was interested in dealing with and I gave up.

I also remember talk, after AmigaOS was licensed to someone again (can't remember if it was with MOS people, H&P or Hyperion though) there was talk of porting DE so AmigaOS could be a foreign host much like Linux and Windows are foreign hosts, in the mid 4.x versions somewhere, 4.2 or 4.5. There was also talk of integrating them into more of a single product at OS5.0.

4.0 was originally to be pretty much a direct PPC port of OS3.9, but under Hyperion has become far more than that. Any actual enhancements to the OS would come after 4.0 as 4.x releases.

There was even talk that bplan was a second licensee of the AmigaOne brand way back in the day. But something happened and they stopped talking to each other and the AOS/MOS split began.

The thing I do not remember though, is when or why they decided to allow AmigaOS to happen again.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 16:25:59
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@hatschi
Quote:

hatschi wrote:
@saimo

Quote:

saimo wrote:

Finally, on April 1st, 2001, Fleecy talks about AmigaDE integrated into AmigaOS 4; note that:

  • it's not AmigaOS 4 integrated into AmigaDE, but the other way around;


And only two days later, Gary Peake tries to clarify the following email conversation:

Quote:
> > From: "Steve & Ulli Bowman"
> >> I don't get that. I thought the whole point of DE was that it was
> >> scaleable, from PDA to desktop. Maybe I've misunderstood, but I thought
> >> once AOS5 was reached, AOS4 and DE would be integrated under the one
> >> banner, as a single product.
> >
> > You got that right


Among other fluff, he makes this statement:

Quote:
AmigaOS will continue to be developed and will be merged into or under AmigaDE so that we eventually have our own familiar base to play on and it will be a full AMIGA base that is server capable and cell phone capable as well.


So what? AmigaDE being integrated into AmigaOS4 which will be "merged into or under AmigaDE"?

I had missed those. Cannot but say that those statements surprise me and look weird to me although...

Quote:
Do you really believe that they ever knew what they were talking about?

... I think that it's a matter of using words too loosely. Maybe Gary Peake (Director of Developer Relations and Support) did not have quite the same idea of Fleecy Moss (the guy who envisioned the AmigaDE, AFAIK) or maybe just did not put much care into words - indeed, I do think that Gary got things mixed up, as it's AmigaDE which is naturally suited to be hosted.
Anyway, assuming that they really did not have a precise scheme...

Quote:
Does it really make a difference?

... yes, there would be a technical difference. AmigaOS 4 integrated into AmigaDE and AmigaDE integrated into AmigaOS 4 would be two different things. But the point is that we are talking of two distinct entities (AmigaOS 4 and AmigaDE), which were supposed to somehow combine and give birth to a third entity (AmigaOS 5/Amiuniverse/whatever).
This was and is my only point. AmigaOS 4 (as we know it now) is distinct from AmigaDE.

Quote:
Is it really wise to start comparing something real and somewhat tangible (OS4) with something imaginary such as AmigaDE - or debate about Amiga Inc.'s woolly "plans" with AmigaDE or OS5 at that time ?

Tell me about it!!!
All I'm doing is saying that AmigaOS 4 has nothing to do with any version of AmigaDE ever produced or envisioned.

saimo

edit: improved a little

Last edited by saimo on 14-Dec-2006 at 04:50 PM.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 16:29:48
#52 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@hatschi

Quote:

hatschi wrote:

So what about this link then? Apparently, you stopped exactly two days before - 1st April [sic!] 2001.

Answer given to this post of yours (which was stressing the very same thing, BTW).

saimo

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billt 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 17:12:29
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3205
From: Maryland, USA

@BobW

Quote:
It's pretty clear that at least at that point AmigaDE was what they considered AmigaOS. Then as you moved forward in time it gets fuzzy. Then in April 2001 AmigaDE and Amiga OS are clearly separate.


Interesting. But if you read through the OEM Agreement with Thendic, it's always referred to "DE Operating System", "Amiga DE Operating System", "Amiga DE Software",

After all these things are defined, there are then references to the "Amiga Software", which by then can only refer to anything that has "DE" in the name. Same for the "Licensed Software" term which is clearly and explicitly defined as the "Amiga DE Operating System" in the OEM agreement. The term "Licensed Product" is explicitly defined as coming from Thendic, hardware which will incoporate the Licensed Software.

I find it curious that if the terms DE and OS4 were used interchangably at the time, why were they so consistent and explicit in the OEM Agreement to never say Operating System without preceding that with "DE".

bbrv apparently wants to include what Amiga OS4 is today under the enhancements and/or derivtiave works clauses, but seriously, how do you make that connection?

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itix 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 17:25:49
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@billt

Quote:

There was even talk that bplan was a second licensee of the AmigaOne brand way back in the day. But something happened and they stopped talking to each other and the AOS/MOS split began.


Not quite. MorphOS existed before OS 3.9 and was going to appear in way or another.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 17:37:23
#55 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12392
From: Norway

@Rogue and itix

Never really did understand way H&P did spend so much time on Amiga OS 3.5 and Amiga OS 3.9, and way they did not go for PowerPC OS from the beginning, guess we will never know unless some H&P developer pops in, not where likely, the marketing of OS3.5/OS3.9 sates that they do support PowerPC, but there is little evidence that the 68k modules where migrated to WarpUP PowerPC binaries.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 14-Dec-2006 at 05:38 PM.

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itix 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 18:10:38
#56 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

Never really did understand way H&P did spend so much time on Amiga OS 3.5 and Amiga OS 3.9, and way they did not go for PowerPC OS from the beginning, guess we will never know unless some H&P developer pops in, not where likely, the marketing of OS3.5/OS3.9 sates that they do support PowerPC, but there is little evidence that the 68k modules where migrated to WarpUP PowerPC binaries.


Competence. At that time AmigaOS was already running on PPC only but not at H&P...

Edit Though, I think at that time most of them were just happy to get something done. In the end advancements were not great but many - including me - were hoping for revival.

Last edited by itix on 14-Dec-2006 at 06:17 PM.

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BobW 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 18:17:09
#57 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Apr-2004
Posts: 275
From: Central, NY USA

@billt

Quote:
I do remember Software Hut selling some x86 systems for DE development, I don't remember if those carried the dAmiga brand mentioned in the Efika thread


Software Hut hasn't cleaned up their site. The dAmiga is still for sale there if you look. Including specs.

Softhut's dAmiga

I think some people are spending too much time arguing over OS4=DE. I don't think Amiga Inc ever said that. What they did do early on is use the term AmigaOS to describe AmigaDE (AmigaOS=DE).

Their product plans and terminology were so screwed up back then you can see why a lawyer would have a field day. If Amiga licensed AmigaDE to Thendic and at the time considered it internally as the future AmigaOS then does Genesi have a case?

Last edited by BobW on 14-Dec-2006 at 06:18 PM.

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jorkany 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 18:18:37
#58 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-May-2005
Posts: 920
From: Space Coast

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:
Never really did understand way H&P did spend so much time on Amiga OS 3.5 and Amiga OS 3.9, and way they did not go for PowerPC OS from the beginning,

Maybe they were in business for the money.

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saimo 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 18:36:05
#59 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Mar-2003
Posts: 2408
From: Unknown

@BobW

Quote:
Their product plans and terminology were so screwed up back then you can see why a lawyer would have a field day. If Amiga licensed AmigaDE to Thendic and at the time considered it internally as the future AmigaOS then does Genesi have a case?

It does not matter what AInc thought of AmigaDE: what matters is what AmigaDE actually was and what it could/would become (i.e. the system licensed to Thendic and the potential system resulting from the future upgrades, respectively). And AmigaDE never was the AmigaOS 4 we have now, nor the AmigaOS 4 we have now is something that AmigaDE would become.
Thendic did not license any possible past, present and future system that AInc would produce, but only AmigaDE (a system other than Hyperion's AmigaOS 4) and its future versions.

saimo

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BobW 
Re: Reality check
Posted on 14-Dec-2006 18:52:28
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 9-Apr-2004
Posts: 275
From: Central, NY USA

@saimo

Has a copy of the agreement between Thendic and Amiga Inc ever been leaked? (EDIT: Doh! Nevermind. Now I see it )That would be interesting reading. All we know is that both sides disagree.

Quote:
And AmigaDE never was the AmigaOS 4 we have now, nor the AmigaOS 4 we have now is something that AmigaDE would become.


Thats the point that Amiga Inc would have to argue and reality or not the judgement could go either way although a Judge already decided in Amiga's favor on this topic.

Last edited by BobW on 14-Dec-2006 at 06:58 PM.

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