@sundown

Quote:

sundown wrote: @ChrisH Quote: Nice to know he isn't talking about us behind our backs, but it also makes it crystal clear that he doesn't want to talk about the whole subject for some reason... I'm sure he's been told to say nothing because of the court case.

The case is still in an early stage, all the announcements were made despite the existence of the ongoing case with the exception of one slightly before, now we should blame the same court case? I don't see the logic in that.

Also, Adam is the president of ACK, not Bill McEwen. I would suppose he should have a say of some sort when it comes to their partnership.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Adam had no way to keep any of his h/w schedules because he needed a license from AI before he could offer any h/w & he didn't get one. In the last 2 years or so, he was hot & cold about getting one & I have a feeling AI was playing games with him. The times that he came out with dates, he may have felt that a license was imminent, only to get burned, just a guess. He now has a partnership with AI & he may feel like he's over the hump at last. Let's wait & see if AI is on the level or just playing games with him.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

Has someone from ACK said this?

No, it's only my opinion.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@sundown

Quote:

sundown wrote: @fairlanefastback Adam had no way to keep any of his h/w schedules because he needed a license from AI before he could offer any h/w & he didn't get one. In the last 2 years or so, he was hot & cold about getting one & I have a feeling AI was playing games with him. The times that he came out with dates, he may have felt that a license was imminent, only to get burned, just a guess. He now has a partnership with AI & he may feel like he's over the hump at last. Let's wait & see if AI is on the level or just playing games with him.

Assuming for a second this is true, that a lack of a license is to blame for previous blown dates thrown out there why even develop the PowerVixxen without the needed license I think you are saying it needed? And besides, we aren't asking to have him sell the PowerVixxen at this point. But man, speaking for myself, seeing it run Linux as was said it could would put my doubts greatly to rest on the current project.

Additionally, why do you attribute likely blame in the Amiga / ACK relationship to rest with Amiga? If we have personal experiences to share about how ACK deals with people that will shed a positive light on the company I think that would be great to hear about. Until then I have no insider info to garner an opinion in favor or one over the other.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@pixie

Consent from the person who is the contributer of the information and who is most likely to suffer injury because of publication - it's a matter of courtesy and right relations rather than legality. Which comes first?

@ALL Make of what follows what you will

I have often deplored the activities of those who, justifying their invasion of others lives with claims on the right of the public to know, freedom of information and expression etc., yet do not care about the harm they do while they pusue circulation, money, or a personal, religious, commercial or political position.

Do to others as you would have them do to you is a good guide. Another I use which says much the same goes: There is just one responsibility that goes with any right one claims, that is to accord the same right to all others in thought, word and deed.

I have had my share of public and hidden personal attack from those who think they have something to gain or who just delight in putting in the knife and twisting it. I know well what it is like, the imputation of false motives, invidious comparisons, suggestions of delusion, the circulation of scandalous stories plucked out of the imagination, the people who smile to ones face and put the knife in ones back, the knot in the guts, the debate as to whether one fights or goes, shingles even.

In general my rules are: do not criticise nor react to criticism, nor defend against attack nor try to harm opponents. Do not drive them into corners but make it safe for them to come out of the defensive position. Be detached and maintain goodwill, give understanding, clarify issues, keep people with whom one is involved (members of a club for instance) fully informed, don't reply to ignorance, maintain ones own integrity, be prepared to wait.

What does this do? It becomes easier to see a wy forward that is good for all. Those kept informed respond if they can when help is required. (Leaders who do not keep people informed, for fear of criticism, soon find themselves isolated and unable to develop their activities.) Other people weigh ones behaviour in the face of the attackers and question the gossip to effect. In all but a few cases, my opponents have eventually looked at themselves and taken some action to make their peace; that takes some courage and I have been on the lookout and welcomed it. The few who have not made their peace subsequently vanished from the scene as their efforts failed.

Now a last word from Saint Noel the Divine:) as one person quipped. Is this easy to do? No it's a real struggle, more difficult in the passions of youth and the weaknesses of age. When I fail to keep these rules the bad consequences are all too easy to see. Try again ...

Noel

@NoelFuller

Quote:

NoelFuller wrote: @ALL Make of what follows what you will I have often deplored the activities of those who, justifying their invasion of others lives with claims on the right of the public to know, freedom of information and expression etc., yet do not care about the harm they do while they pusue circulation, money, or a personal, religious, commercial or political position.

You leave yourself in an ambigous state with the "make of what follows what you will". But there are some topics you bring up in a general sense that are probably worth touching on again. Lets talk about the section quoted above. Its been said by others here and I agree. I'm concerned about what ACK the company is saying and doing. Somehow many are melding Adam and ACK. And while it has been said the company consists of one person at this point, there is still a reason why there is a company that is an entity unto itself and why the company gets its own name, ACK Software Controls, pays its own taxes I would presume etc. There are valid questions to be asked of this company. The company presents itself as a company in its communications to the public. ACK the company is a company like the deli down the block, or like your bank, or like the fast food place that you got lunch from sometime this week. Now if your deli keeps promising to stock Boars Head brand meat and never does or the bank keeps messing up your bank statements, or the local fast food place keeps giving you extra pickles on your burger when you ask for none its not an invasion of someone personally to inquire on why these issues occured, what is being done in the short term to address them, and will there be a long term solution and the like.

Now small companies will be greater impacted by personal issues that arise with its employees, in the case of a single person firm this can be extremely impactful. That goes without saying. But this company has made fresh announcements for a new product line on an ambitious announced schedule anew. I can not speak to how others dealt with the personal issue explaination from the past but at this juncture in 2007 I feel it is legitimate to ask the company ACK to show us some backup to previous claims at the time (in regard to the product, not the personal issue), especially with the big question mark we have in regard to the currently advertised projects.

Quote:

In general my rules are: do not criticise nor react to criticism, nor defend against attack nor try to harm opponents. Do not drive them into corners but make it safe for them to come out of the defensive position. Be detached and maintain goodwill, give understanding, clarify issues, keep people with whom one is involved (members of a club for instance) fully informed, don't reply to ignorance, maintain ones own integrity, be prepared to wait.

Again you are ambiguous on how you are directing this, but criticism if done in a proper manner can be productive, it can help us improve ourselves. And especially if criticism is directed towards a company that is looking to convince you to spend your hard earned money on its proposed wares, criticism can lead to improvements that in the end can lead to more profits for that company. Good companies don't just ask what they are doing right, they ask what they are doing wrong and they are concerned to try to understand that from their customers in the first place. None of this should make ACK the company an "opponent".


Quote:

(Leaders who do not keep people informed, for fear of criticism, soon find themselves isolated and unable to develop their activities.)

When you wrote this part I wonder if you realized you used the word criticism, given what you stated about criticism earlier. This community deserves better than what it has gotten treatment-wise from a variety of vendors over the years. I think some tough questions are going to come up at times and that dosen't mean the people asking them are looking for "money, or a personal, religious, commercial or political position" as you put it in your philosophical example.

Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Jun-2007 at 03:42 AM.
Last edited by fairlanefastback on 26-Jun-2007 at 03:35 AM.

_________________
Pegasos2 G3 running AOS 4.1 and MorphOS 2.0
Amikit user, tinkering with Icaros VM (AROS)
EFIKA owner
Amiga 1200

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

why even develop the PowerVixxen without the needed license I think you are saying it needed?

The PV is still much of a mystery. It was thought that it didn't need a license, but I don't recall Adam stating that, maybe others can. The PV required parts that were not industry standard & hard to find, making them expensive. The PV topic just stopped about 8 months ago, no word on what the status is at this time. But lets say he could & did sell them last year, ppl would have been out $250 or so because os4 can't be bought.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

This community deserves better than what it has gotten treatment-wise from a variety of vendors over the years. I think some tough questions are going to come up at times and that dosen't mean the people asking them are looking for "money, or a personal, religious, commercial or political position" as you put it in your philosophical example.

Ah, a forum were users & vendors live in harmony, what a beautiful thought.

Guess you're new here as that was the way it use to be here at one time. You & the others that claim criticism is healthy need to think again. We had the os4 developers & h/w developers that took the time to answer questions, but over time, criticism & personal attacks did its damage. There were only a small handful of ppl that were out of line, it was enough to drive them out.

Your demands that ppl live under a microscope for your support is way over the top.

They're coming to take me away, HA HA
They're coming to take me away, HO HO HEE HEE HA HA
To the funny farm
Where life is beautiful all the time

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@sundown

Quote:

The PV is still much of a mystery.

In what way is the PV a "mystery" ? Either it exists or it doesn't. Apparently there is a prototype, I quote "Adam says that they have since long been working on OS4 for the PowerVixxen LT, but a periodically returning bug in the interface of the A1200 has delayed it. Further on Adam tells us that they plan to release the Vixxen in relation to when the OS4 gets done for the AmigaOne." (See here and here.)

One may conclude that if this is true then there is a physical embodiment of the PV that (semi) runs OS4. Where is that prototype ? Let's see a picture. Ack has nothing to lose and everything to gain from posting a picture. The alternative conclusion is that it doesn't exist.

Quote:

The PV required parts that were not industry standard & hard to find, making them expensive.

If you look at the spec, it's not that far off from being an EFIKA. The EFIKA is available and not expensive.

Quote:

The PV topic just stopped about 8 months ago, no word on what the status is at this time.

For all intents and purposes, there is no status; otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

@edponpon

Quote:

people here feel they're owed something. You now feel that you're owed proof

I don't want to drag this point out but I feel it should be answered (and then at least I won't bring it up again).

Only a few people here are taking this personal and getting emotional. The rest of us are taking a look at this in a logical and methodical way: What do we know and what can be proven ?

So far, we have a lot of evidence of "Ack said this" and "then nothing happened".

Ack doesn't owe us anything, but he could quite easily come to this forum with some photos, a few words of explanation then everything could be cleared up and we could all get behind him. It would be so easy for him to do it... then why doesn't he ?

Hoaxes like iWin have caused damage to the Amiga community. People got their hopes up and then were cruelly disappointed. They also distract people from real possibilities, like the Sam board.

@koan

Quote:

In what way is the PV a "mystery" ? Either it exists or it doesn't.

That was my meaning (mystery), we (I) don't know if it is a real product.

Adam has made it quite clear that there will be NO pictures to prove what he has done. Lets be practical, if he did post pictures, would anyone really believe what's show is real?

Quote:

If you look at the spec, it's not that far off from being an EFIKA. The EFIKA is available and not expensive.

But the EFICA doesn't run os4 & after reading bbrv's irc interview, its questionable if it will run MOS 2.0 when it comes out.
But then that's OT in this thread.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@sundown

Quote:

It was thought that it didn't need a license, but I don't recall Adam stating that, maybe others can.

Link #1
Adam Kowalczyk wrote:
Quote:

It is completely Hyperion's domain regarding licension OS4 for expansion boards for the classics. I have been in discussion with Hyperion in the past regarding bundling OS4 with the PowerVixxen LT. There are zero issues whatsoever. In all honesty, there would be more issues if the PowerVixxen wasn't shipped with OS4.

Link #2
Adam Kowalczyk wrote:
Quote:

I've had my lawyer go over the contract and do not see any issues. I have been in contact with Amiga Inc. and they directed me to Hyperion. Adam.

sundown wrote:
Quote:

The PV required parts that were not industry standard & hard to find, making them expensive.

The PV required parts that were unavailable to Adam when he made the announcement that the PV LT is in production and going to be shipped just one month later.

sundown wrote:
Quote:

Adam had no way to keep any of his h/w schedules because he needed a license from AI before he could offer any h/w & he didn't get one.

See above, he said by himself that he was directed to Hyperion for licensing not Amiga Inc. He also said that there were "zero issues whatsoever". Further, Adam also failed to deliver even simpler products, like the CPU modules, that didn't require any licensing. So I guess we can put your theory that he only couldn't keep any of his schedules due to licensing problems to a rest.

Last edited by hatschi on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:13 AM.
Last edited by hatschi on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:12 AM.
Last edited by hatschi on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:07 AM.

@NoelFuller

Quote:

I can't see anyone being in a position to give an update on hardware availability. AckControls can't know in the present situation if the announced hardware can be produced in future let alone when, nor can Amiga Inc give him any answers that he could rely on.

I don't really buy that. The license issues never stopped ACK from making announcements in the past, why should it now? He has developed his hardware independent of what software may later come, which is obviously what has been done with other hardware projects too. He could very well complete the hardware (perhaps to a beta stage) without software, or if that is too risky then he could perhaps demonstrate the hardware to public as it currently is (it must be quite advanced if he had a summer 2007 release date, I assume it was in a beta stage already).

But then, all this falls victim to the already seen ACK modus operandi. Announcements are made for relatively quick release of hardware (in days or weeks time), but that hardware is never seen, so we can't judge it if exists at all or if it is very incomplete etc. Common sense would seem to dictate that if those release dates were realistic (and not lies) then he must have quite complete hardware around. License or no license, court case or court case, there certainly is things ACK *could* tell us and demonstrate to us if he indeed has all this prototype (or even near release) hardware in his labs. Like ChrisH said, even if not demonstrate the latest specced things, there is plenty of past announcements that could use some corroboration.

The silence certainly makes one wonder if any ACK hardware was ever so close to release as those announcements have suggested. (Hence it would be good business for ACK to show something tangible to break this track-record of all talk and no show.)

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:33 AM.

@NoelFuller

Quote:

Consent from the person who is the contributer of the information and who is most likely to suffer injury because of publication - it's a matter of courtesy and right relations rather than legality

It could very well be argued that it is a matter of courtesy and right relations for ACK to explain their past announcements to us, yet you do not seem to agree with that?

As for re-posting information, I agree asking for permission is the polite thing to do when something wasn't posted out in the public or it was marked copyrighted/private (obviously it may even be a legal requirement).

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:32 AM.

@sundown

Quote:

Adam has made it quite clear that there will be NO pictures to prove what he has done. Lets be practical, if he did post pictures, would anyone really believe what's show is real?

Do you really think that everyone/majority would think of the images as fake? I don't see any history in this community of doubting pictures. I see a lot of history of analyzing pictures, but not any major paranoia as to whether or not images are real. Sure, we have a nutcase or two, but who cares about those - it's the majority that matters. I think we can take cue from the Troika incident:

The pictures would no doubt be dissected to pieces and analyzed by electronics enthusiasts/professionals (like the Troika pictures were) as well as us know-nothings, but I doubt anyone would claim the pictures fake unless there was something weird about them. The Troika pictures were accepted as real. People generally believe that Troika did produce what they did, I don't think the pictures validity was questioned in at least a major way.

What the Troika picture did do though, was allow for the analysis that their project was very incomplete at that point. Considering their lack of releases since then I guess that analysis can be assumed to have been pretty accurate. This is exactly why pictures are important, they can tell us more (of the reality of the situation) than a thousand words in press releases.

If ACK is as complete with many projects as the company says they have been (e.g. PowerVixxen in production or CPU modules ready to be demonstrated months ago days after announcing demo) posting pictures shouldn't do them any harm - the pictures would likely show quite complete products like we've seen in the past of, say, AmiJoe (not an ACK product, just example). Of course it doesn't mean the products will be released, but it would give us more information about the track-record of ACK (which so far has been mostly announcements after which nothing happens).

If you wonder why we are so adamant, I have to wonder why you guys who don't see this are so adamant that we not ask for these things. This community has a long history of different kinds of consumer activism (many fan-based communities do), I don't see why this should be any different. Most of us are being very polite, analytical about it - we are not accusing anyone, we are discussing (also possibilities that are more shady than others) and making suggestions.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:46 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 08:45 AM.

@hatschi

Thanks for the corrections, but lets face it, h/w without s/w is pointless. I gave up on ack after his no-show at Amiwest last year & I was ready to buy the 1.2GHz G3 GL.

You know if there's any recorded dialog between ack & Hyperion? Just sounds like AI pushed him off on a wild goose chase as Hyperion claimed AI gave out the licenses, though the PV was a special case.

_________________
Hate tends to make you look stupid...

@sundown

Quote:

We had the os4 developers & h/w developers that took the time to answer questions, but over time, criticism & personal attacks did its damage.

Just as all those hollow announcements from various companies and developers have done its damage on the community and the users.

Doesn't it really swing both ways? Treat me right, I treat you right?

It almost sounds like you are saying us discussing ACK's delays and non-deliveries is worse than ACK failing to deliver time and time again while continuing to market to us these products that keep getting delayed? Why allow one and not the other?

@sundown

Quote:

Thanks for the corrections, but lets face it, h/w without s/w is pointless.

True, but since Adam said there were "zero issues whatsoever" regarding bundling of OS4 and PV LT, it seems to me that it was rather a hardware, not software/OS problem.

Quote:

You know if there's any recorded dialog between ack & Hyperion?

No, I am not aware of any. It would be interesting to hear Hyperion's version of it. Has there really been any contact between ACK and Hyperion regarding licensing, is the licensing of OS4 for A1200 expansion hw really completely Hyperion's domain, has a contract been signed, etc.

I don't understand why so much people are even considering that there may be Hardware and that this is not o hoax.

I think this points makes it pretty obvious:

1. If you invested Time and Money to develop a Hardware, then you don't wait for another company to put if to the market.
You need to earn money with it. You put it to the market as fast as possible.
At least you can sell it with Linux.

2. If you developed a Hardware and want to make money with it, then you want to make it as attractive as possible for potential customer. So you offer it with as much OSs as possible.
(look what other vendors are doing)

3. If you want to sell a product, you do some Marketing. (This here wasnt marketing, it was the opposite)

@Heinz

Quote:

I don't understand why so much people are even considering that there may be Hardware and that this is not o hoax.

For one, others have been known to work with Adam, such as the OS4 team and Amiga Inc. I know especially the latter doesn't inspire confidence, but it does suggest there is more going on behind the scenes than we know directly. I don't think this is an iWin. Of course it COULD be in theory, in which case ACK would have fooled everyone, but at this time I doubt that very much. I hope this doesn't bite me in the backside later, but I do think ACK is for real.

Quote:

1. If you invested Time and Money to develop a Hardware, then you don't wait for another company to put if to the market. You need to earn money with it. You put it to the market as fast as possible. At least you can sell it with Linux.

True, although the PowerVixxen I believe was an A1200 expansion and thus the Linux point isn't quite as valid there. OTOH, I think the little we have heard from ACK and public speculation has suggested that hardware hasn't been ready either, is it just a bug or two in an otherwise completed product, or a very much work-in-progress without further information from ACK it is hard to tell.

Quote:

2. If you developed a Hardware and want to make money with it, then you want to make it as attractive as possible for potential customer. So you offer it with as much OSs as possible. (look what other vendors are doing)

Well the Amiga market hasn't always been as logical about this, so anything could happen. Even with hardware fully ready ACK might opt to wait for OS4 for all we know.

Quote:

3. If you want to sell a product, you do some Marketing. (This here wasnt marketing, it was the opposite)

On this we agree, and that is why I find the ACK behavior so strange. Does he/they really think making announcements, then failing to deliver, then choosing not to really explain anything (at least not much) etc. really works? Maybe he is counting on getting products out and that fixing everything. It will certainly fix a lot, but in the mean time some improved consumer relations would help because at this rate ACK is alienating many potential early-adopters perhaps for good.

Last edited by jtsiren on 26-Jun-2007 at 09:15 AM.