@jiyong

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jiyong wrote: @BrianK Uhm, how are they going to fix excessive fix times, complaints about older units or half broken refurbished returns with that website?

Since they are openly taking the $1 Billion hit, perhaps now they are just realizing that they spent more money on labor trying to "patch" the old board and are just going to offer newer 65nm-based boards.

This is just a guess, but it seems like the smartest thing to do since the newer boards are cheaper anyway. Saves them on future warranty repairs as well.

A sort of "preventative maintainence" method on recurring warranty repairs if the new 65nm chips do indeed solve the issues.

@BrianK

Uhm, how are they going to fix excessive fix times, complaints about older units or half broken refurbished returns with that website?

@MikeB

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Still mass complaining by XBox 360 users, mostly regarding:

http://service.xbox.com just went into effect in the USA last week to help improve client services and stop this sort of stuff.

Still mass complaining by XBox 360 users, mostly regarding:

"Of all the complaints from Xbox warranty repair customers, the most common one is excessive wait times of four weeks to eight weeks, in some cases.

"My Xbox took almost two months to come back," Greg Mcullen, 21, of New York, wrote in an email to CNET.co.uk's sister site, News.com, "which was very aggravating since I was told I'd have it back in 10 days."

The return process goes something like this: an Xbox owner calls customer service and describes the problem. If the console can be serviced, a box is sent to the customer with prepaid shipping. The customer then uses the box to send the console to the repair centre. The console is then either fixed or replaced and sent to the customer."

Other complaints revolve around cases in which the consoles are not actually fixed, just replaced with older, refurbished consoles.


Xbox 360 owner Mike Vail blogged about his experience with the Xbox warranty repair on his personal Web site, beginning on 5 July when he saw the first ominous glimmer of the flashing red lights, until 26 July when he received his replacement Xbox.

He complained that Microsoft didn't fix the console he sent to them. "They just gave me a new one. How does that work? I would understand if the manufacturer's date on the one I got back was a month old or something around there but it wasn't. It was four months older then the one I sent in," he wrote two days after receiving a console back from Microsoft.

Mcullen, whose box took two months to arrive back at his doorstep, was even less pleased. He says that instead of his console, which was 7 months old when it broke in mid-May, he got back a year-old Xbox with a broken disc drive.

For others, the interaction with customer service representatives has been the most maddening. Jessie Lawrence, 30, said his back-and-forth with customer service reps turned into what he called an "absolute nightmare".

It began with representatives not inputting his information in the computer correctly, he said, and progressed to him being told he would be contacted by a service team member and promised discounts that weren't actually available. Often, when he asked for a supervisor, he was told there was no one higher up with whom to speak, he said.

"It felt like the whole time I had to argue to get any kind of service out of them, like I had to defend myself," Lawrence said.

http://news.cnet.co.uk/gamesgear/0,39029682,49292008-2,00.htm

@MikeB

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A good design takes into account long term usage.

To a point you're right. I'm somehow doubtful that any console, PC, or electronics manufacture took into account the impact of all the hair from my wife's 9 indoor pets would be if I never cleaned the electronics for 5 years.

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They just state, brandnew the design is insufficient already, in due time the problem only becomes worse.

Without actually testing the new design such a conclusion is as hand wavy as anybody else's. People with exchanged units are seeing the new design and the new Elites, not original Elites, are showing with the updated GPU cooling. As they're in Japan and the Elite isn't out there. So perhaps they should wait to test a fixed Elite or find someone with an actual console with the new fixes. You have to admit testing the actually fixed console is going to be way more valid then testing and old console and concluding the new design won't work either.

Last edited by BrianK on 06-Aug-2007 at 03:14 PM.

@Tomas

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The new version was afaik not out yet. I believe the new units have just now started showing up in stores here and there, while many still only have the old version.

Many potential XBox 360 consumers more eductated on the issue are now wary of buying a XBox 360 because they don't know what they will buy. There are still hundreds of thousands of unsold units which were shipped around 8 months ago. It's hard to tell if they have an additional heatsink or not, others state they will wait for 65nm redesign, but again people are wondering if they will be able to find out if the unit they are buying will be a 90nm model or a 65nm model.

Meanwhile the PS3 has been number 1 or 2 (only beaten by the Wii) on Amazon.com for many weeks now.

@BrianK

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Um don't all electronics work this way? I can't think of any electronics which gets cooler when one reduces or eliminates the airflow. Mostly worthless statement, IMO.

A good design takes into account long term usage. They just state, brandnew the design is insufficient already, in due time the problem only becomes worse.

@BrianK

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And look hey Microsoft enlarged it on newer versions of the console. Again I wish they would have compared the newer versions with the fix in place, that would have told us how well/bad those fixes are likely to impact the issue.

The new version was afaik not out yet. I believe the new units have just now started showing up in stores here and there, while many still only have the old version.

@MikeB

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first party title PGR4 had to be scaled down recently with regard to its graphics due to this limitation

Bizarre Creations developer seems to disagree with your ascertion. -- You won't see different times of day per city because this involves recreating all the textures again (one for day and one for night). Whilst this wasn't a problem for our dev team, it was a problem fitting all this data onto a single DVD. So we've worked around the problem by providing different lighting models per city. --

Seems they approached the problem from a different angle and were able to 'worked around the problem'.

@MikeB

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The console repaired in May 2007 did not have a new heat sink placed in it.

It would have made more sense to compare the new design to the old design IMO. It doesn't really tell us anything to say that the old design and a newer manufacture date on the old design perform the same. DUH!

As for temp gap they may or may not have a point. They seemed to miss the information on what the thermal characteristics of the GPU is. If say, for example, the GPU was built to sustain higher expected temps what they measured could well be within the expected norms for this unit.

Quote:

The expert pointed out, "The heat sink on the graphics LSI is so small, I wonder if it can really cool down the board

And look hey Microsoft enlarged it on newer versions of the console. Again I wish they would have compared the newer versions with the fix in place, that would have told us how well/bad those fixes are likely to impact the issue.

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What's more, if the vents were clogged with dust, the temperature could also increase.

Um don't all electronics work this way? I can't think of any electronics which gets cooler when one reduces or eliminates the airflow. Mostly worthless statement, IMO.

Back on topic, Japanese termal expert takes a look at the XBox 360 thermal issues:

"Face it: the Xbox 360 isn't quite up to snuff. The design is flawed, leading to an abnormal number of machines konking out. Since Microsoft won't reveal the details of what exactly is causing the problems, Japanese news source Nikkei had a thermal design expert analyze the 360's heat radiation system. Two Xbox 360's were used for the investigation: one purchased in 2005, and the other that was repaired in May 2007. Their findings?


• The temperature gap with room temp was 22 degrees C. "When designing consumer products, it is common to seek a temperature gap of around 10 degrees C between exhaust and room temperatures," the thermal design expert said. "The 22 degrees C is quite a large gap..."
• The cooling fan was half of desktop PCs — apparently to reduce noise.
• The expert pointed out, "The heat sink on the graphics LSI is so small, I wonder if it can really cool down the board." The reason for this? Apparently, Microsoft had to downsized graphics LSI heat sink so that the DVD drive could be placed above it.
• In five minutes after booting up a game, the graphic LSI heat sink temp rose to 70 degrees C. In 15 minutes, the temperature for the microprocessor heat sink stabilized at 58 degrees, but the graphics LSI heat sink reached 80 degrees C. If the room temperature was high (like 35 degrees C), the heat sink could possibly hit 100 degrees C. What's more, if the vents were clogged with dust, the temperature could also increase.
• The console repaired in May 2007 did not have a new heat sink placed in it.
This is bad design. Really, really bad."

http://kotaku.com/gaming/japan-explains/why-xbox-360s-heat-up-and-crap-out-286202.php

@jtsiren

Micheal Pachter has been more often wrong than right with regard to his speculations, but anyhow I don't see anything truly malicious with regard to the rumour.

Rockstar already complained with regard to the lack of storage on DVDs (first party title PGR4 had to be scaled down recently with regard to its graphics due to this limitation) and with regard to the lack of a default harddrive for the XBox 360 core. There's a rumour Microsoft may allow developers to have a harddrive as a minimum requirement in the future, so maybe they are beefing up the version they had as the game should be identical on both PS3 and XBox 360.

Sony should be banned [from AW.net] for such anti-competetive tactics!

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"We think it is also likely that Take-Two had a contractual commitment to Sony that it would not favor competitor Microsoft by launching the Xbox 360 version of GTA IV prior to launching the PS3 version, and believe that any delay of the PS3 version necessitated a delay of the Xbox 360 version."

Microsoft is improving...
" Xbox.com has an online option for customers in the US, now available at http://service.xbox.com.

This new service lets you register your Xbox or Xbox 360 console, setup a repair, and track the status of the repair, all online. This new site lets you create In-Warranty or Out-of-warranty repairs, and even gives you a $5 discount for Out-of-Warranty repairs.
"

Very cool for those unlucky enough to get a console breakage. Yes no European site yet. Historically Microsoft has done the US first then roles to countries outside the US.

@MikeB

The fire and death of a child was sad. They were asking for $50K. Microsoft should have just settled with the typical 'this is no admission of fault but your full reward for any current and future damages' clause that rides these sort of settlements.

One issue however is the claim from the family...
'Microsoft recently learned about this tragic incident that occurred in December 2004. Our sympathy is with the family. However, we are not aware of any evidence that an XBox caused the fire. Also, the complaint specifically states that an XBox 360 was involved, but this version of the product was unavailable for purchase at that time.'

Now I wonder did the police take the complaint or did the parent fill out the document themselves? If the later then this does look very strange as 360s were not available in 2004.

I finally got to play with a 360 the other day. Didn't do much with it though.

My impressions:

It's noisy.

Gears looks fantastic, don't think there's anything on PS3 to match it ...but that might be about to change.

Who said those controllers were comfortable?

Didn't do much with it though, mainly watching Serenity (good film BTW).

_________________
Whyzzat?

Know the company you admire....

"Microsoft has now officially responded to an Illinois family's lawsuit in which a fire was allegedly caused by a faulty Xbox console in December of 2004. The fire resulted in the death of an infant, Wade Kline. According to the lawsuit, the fire was caused by an overheating power supply, which became so hot as to start the deadly fire. Microsoft, in response, has stated that the fire was wholly the responsibility of the family, and that it was the result of "misuse or abuse" of the console in question. Furthermore, Microsoft claims that the fire was the result of an "obvious" condition of which the family was aware. Considering Microsoft did not recall power cords until February of 2005 (on account of fire concerns) we're not sure to what obvious condition Microsoft is referring. Microsoft is asking that the case be dismissed and that the Kline family pay the company's legal fees."

http://www.xbox360fanboy.com/2007/08/03/ms-blames-xbox-abuse-for-deadly-fire/

@MikeB

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Nintendo uses a significantly different method for generating vibration in their controllers, so they were never sued unlike Sony and Microsoft.

On a personal note it'd be interested in comparing all 3. I believe the Sony and Microsoft methods are pretty straight forward -- take a small motor and place an offset weight on the end. The control should be as simple as an on-off timing switch or relay. I wonder what/how Nintendo does it different. I'll have to see if anyone's broken a Wii controller I can rip apart.

@BrianK

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or perhaps Nintendo

Nintendo uses a significantly different method for generating vibration in their controllers, so they were never sued unlike Sony and Microsoft.

Last edited by MikeB on 03-Aug-2007 at 11:55 PM.

@MikeB

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Of course it's not hard to imagine a vibrating controller could have a negative impact on motion sensing accuracy. I can imagine a combined rumble/motion sensing controller, requires more R&D than just a rumble controller and a motion sensing controller used seperately.

Being Microsoft did this to a PC gaming controller nearly 8-10 years ago, date may be off, Sony could likely license their technology to get the 2 to work together. Also Immersion stated they've gotten this to work and offered to work with Sony. So, if Sony wanted this quicker then an R&D cycle they likely could partner with someone that has done it.

Last edited by BrianK on 03-Aug-2007 at 11:19 PM.