@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: Just concentrate on the Wii-mote and easy to digest games.

As I stated earlier, MP3 and Fire Emblem:RD are certainly not easy to digest.
Regardless, Super Mario Galaxy, according to gamerankings.com , is the highest rated game of all time. Not bad for a standard resolution game, eh?

@Lou

Quote:

think 540p is the sweet spot

Don't think so, 576p may well be a better choice as PAL TVs show 576 lines. Looking at the Wii's specs I wouldn't bother trying to aim higher to target HDTVs, it's not its strongpoint. Just concentrate on the Wii-mote and easy to digest games.

@Lou

Quote:

I have questioned this "next-gen" feature many moons ago as well. The 360 gets no points in this department either. Multi-player is not an excuse to have a 6 hour single player campain.

Agreed, but I think we will get bigger movie-like games eventually, game development just takes lots of time. Luckily there are exceptions like Oblivion or fun replayable games like Super Stardust HD (which has little comparison in comparison to Stardust on the Amiga other than being in the same gerne) and Warhawk to get back into when finishing an action packed rollercoaster ride of a game.

God of War 2 only took 2 years to complete instead of 3 while improving on the original, so much of the early development effort may be geared towards getting the game engines up to spec for this generation, with sequels they can much more focuss on adding more to the original concept and have a better understanding of the potentials. I read the original Jak & Daxter was only about 8 hours and later sequels were much bigger.

Last edited by MikeB on 19-Nov-2007 at 01:01 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Samwel Quote: I think they are amazed with the Wii's success, as should MicroSoft be. No one thought it would such a success really. I thought it would be a great success actually, at least greatly outselling the GameCube, but I also thought and think it would be difficult for them (and XBox 360) to get past a 40 million insall base for the long run. I think from now on with Mario Galaxy already out there it will get increasingly difficult as HDTV penetration and HD games will increase. The platforms I think will get it difficult when MG4, FF XIII and Gran Turismo 5 are out on the market. The Wii will surely get another boost in Japan with Monster Hunter 3 on the market with the XBox 360 I don't see that many additional high profile games hitting the market to boost its sales.

Yeah about that. It seems the Wii has a programmable clock speed. In theory, Nintendo could crank up the just to close to 1Ghz and also it's gpu has a large enough frame buffer for 1024x600p which interestingly enough is what PGR3 and alot of other "next-gen" titles run at. Personally, I think 540p is the sweet spot for nice upscaling to 1080p, so we'll see if a future System Update unlock more of the Wii's potential.

The intro sequence to Fire Emblem:Radiant Dawn on the Wii makes me scratch my head. It looks like CGI but better than any PS2 Final Fantasy CGI I've even seen. To call it beautiful is quite an understatement. I understand it's divx, but it's just so detailed an looks nothing like a mere 480p. It looks better than the Final Fantasy 7 cgi film that I played via my upscaling HDMI port-equipped (and is use) DVD player.

It just makes me scratch my head and leaves my jaw open.

@BrianK

Quote:

BrianK wrote: @MikeB Motorstorm? I had high hopes it basically sucks. Excite Truck is a better game and the visuals really aren't that far apart.

I said this 6 months ago.

Quote:

Heavenly Sword. very very short. Pretty game and worth playing. I question with the length if it's worth the $$ however.

I have questioned this "next-gen" feature many moons ago as well. The 360 gets no points in this department either. Multi-player is not an excuse to have a 6 hour single player campain. Metroid Prime 3 is a 20 hour game. In Fire Emblem:Radiant Dawn, I clock 3 hours in just the first 2 chapters, not including the dozens of restarted Chapter 2 from loosing a main character (another 5 hours there). It seems to me that when Nintendo is hard core, they draw blood. 46 Chapters to go...

Quote:

SuperStardustHD -- nice game and while pretty I question if the Xbox or PS2 couldn't have handled this game. Likely they could have.

Ah yes, it was pretty on the CD32 too, just not HD.

@jtsiren

How can you fault me for quoting the developers directly? WIth regard to for example the Berthesa comments, I already said the duplication issue was really out of context and inaccurate, how can you fault me to quote their later comments well after I already clarified it's exaggerated myself before that? (IMO it adds weight to my comments)

It's not like you and others wanted to come to a common understanding, that it may indeed be exaggerated by you guys and not worthy to come back on time and time again! Same with regard to 1080p games, I stated that for the long run IMO the PS3 is more than powerful enough to have this as its optimal resolution while tapping into the console's potential. So much outrage and misunderstanding followed, yet Uncharted runs in a 1080p resolution while still only using a fraction of the PS3's potential according to the developers. MGS4 has been played by many people in 1080p and they state the game plays gorgeously. Why couldn't you guys come to the common understanding that indeed the PS3 may well be powerful enough?

Really IMO you and many XBot fanboys, don't want to understand many of the things I have written in the past. With regard to bias, maybe you should look in the mirror to see if you're not the least biased persons yourself.

@Tomas

Of course, if you have the energy for that.

As for changing MikeB's mind, I don't really want to change his mind as much as... put it this way, what I did want to have is a real discussion about the differences in these consoles and I'm fairly sure I can't change MikeB's way of having that discussion.

There doesn't seem to be enough of a genuine effort or technical understanding (or both) on his part to really evolve a mutual understanding here on what are the merits and issues with both consoles. He is not aiming for understanding, he just seems to be working to advance his point of view.

What we'd really need here are a few people with deep technical knowledge and understanding of both consoles. Then we could really start to tear into the hot question: How much more powerful PS3 truly is (I guess we all have agreed for a long time it probably is theoretically more powerful?) and how that translates into better games.

I've pretty much given up on AW.net as a tool in getting that question answered, but I guess gaming sites and other technical publications will help answer that in the coming year or two.

Last edited by jtsiren on 19-Nov-2007 at 10:15 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 19-Nov-2007 at 10:15 AM.

Some core comments from reviews with regard to Uncharted:

GT: "'easily the best looking console game so far"
IGN: "Uncharted: Drake's Fortune is the most fun I've had in a videogame this year."
IGN: "Uncharted isn't just a standout for Sony -- it's a standout for gaming as a whole."

@Samwel

Quote:

I think they are amazed with the Wii's success, as should MicroSoft be. No one thought it would such a success really.

I thought it would be a great success actually, at least greatly outselling the GameCube, but I also thought and think it would be difficult for them (and XBox 360) to get past a 40 million insall base for the long run.

I think from now on with Mario Galaxy already out there it will get increasingly difficult as HDTV penetration and HD games will increase. The platforms I think will get it difficult when MG4, FF XIII and Gran Turismo 5 are out on the market. The Wii will surely get another boost in Japan with Monster Hunter 3 on the market with the XBox 360 I don't see that many additional high profile games hitting the market to boost its sales.

@BrianK

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Hardware wise yes, the extra year and developing Blu-Ray themselves likely was an advantage in Sony's favor. Day one the 360's OS was more well baked then the PS3's. As a PS3 owner I feel that I received an unbaked pie, it's now been assembled and is still cooking but closer to done.

Yes I agree. But when I bought the PS3 (septemeber 2007) the OS is mostly done.
I haven't tested the 360, other than seeing some games playing so I can't comment
on how good or bad it is.
Personally I'm satisfied with the PS3's OS now. If features are added to this then
great IMO. I'm more of a tech freak. I like Sony to add under the hood stuff instead.
Like, DivX, Xvid, Bitstream TrueHD, Bitstream DTS-HD, decoded DTS-HD etc..

Quote:

I think the arguement is fair for the PS3 that it's not expensive for what one gets. However, also think the arguement is fair that it's too expensive for the market and Sony knows this which is why the feature/price cuts.

Yes that's exactly what I meant with my comments.

The general public doesn't experience the PS3 as a multi media machine. That's the
big problem. The name PlayStation and how it has been promoted in the past can be
blamed for this. People see it as a games console and nothing else.
This is of course Sony's own fault. They both wanted to use the brand and not at the
same time.

Quote:

But, one has to question did Sony really plan to lose money and be the 3rd best seller at this point? Why would the #1 company plan for #3? I don't think they would and that's why we're seeing a feature/cost reduced console. They're trying to maintain their position.

I think they are amazed with the Wii's success, as should MicroSoft be. No one
thought it would such a success really.
I'm quite sure Sony planned to have sold less than MicroSoft at this time.
Maintain? No, I'm sure the 40GB is the start of an attack for a bigger market share.
But it still needs a even lower price to make a big impact, especially to the Wii.
IMHO.

Quote:

The only reason for Sony would make this investment is if they can sell it as an add-on or they think putting it back in will move more consoles. But, if what you say is right and most people don't care then making a software version won't give them any advantage. Their money is probably better spent at adding new features, movies, and games. Microsoft has recently announced downloadable Xbox games for the 360. It's $15 per game. I can see Sony following this path attempting to get more cash off of older games by offering them for sale in an online store. I think this is the more likely direction they'll be going with older games.

I don't think Sony will ask for money for the actual PS2 emulation. But as you say
maybe start selling some cheap games of Playstation@Store like they seem to
already be doing with some PS1/PSP games.
They don't have to sell that many copies of those old games to cover the cost of
developing the PS3 emulation I would think. I mean more than half the job is already
done.

This is a smart way of recouping developing cost while at the same time adding
another feature that may be wanted by some people. Also readding the feature most
people complained about that Sony removed from the 40GB version compared to the 60GB.

Last edited by Samwel on 19-Nov-2007 at 01:55 AM.

_________________
/Harry

[SOLD] µA1-C - 750GX 800MHz - 512MB - Antec Aria case

Avatar by HNL_DK!

A correction with regard to Uncharted, the game was released last Friday ahead of shedule and is running in a 1080 line resolution (1080p).

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 11:17 PM.

@ BrainK

Quote:

They stated this was greatly exagerrated, I don't mind devs reducing seektimes on DVD or Blu-Ray disc by duplicating some data, on Blu-Ray there's enough space so would result in no-sacrifices.

Here's a quote:

"Bethesda's Pete Hines also commented that recent reports of data duplication on the PS3 Oblivion disc have been exaggerated, and this technique isn't different from the similar strategy that was employed in the creation of the Xbox 360 game last year. "

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/rpg/theelderscrollsivoblivion/news.html?sid=6165505&mode=previews&print=1

Why do people want to continue to abuse dev comments like that? This while I already adressed the issue to great depth! Ulterior motives?

The XBox 360 DVD drive can read about 15 MB/s max but the average reading speed is much lower due to the outer rings containing more data than the inner rings, one circulation reads more data at the outer rings.

Most PS2 and XBox 360 games are currently dual layer discs, all 16X DVD drives can read dual layer DVD at max 12X speed, on average that's significantly slower (a little more than 4MB/s for the inner rings) than the sustained reading speed of the PS3 Blu-Ray drive (9 MB/s).

Seektimes is another issue, with similar technology like was the case with the transition of CD to DVD is a little longer. This related to the higher density of the data of the disc, like in a library offering more books than another library it will take a little longer to find the book you are looking for using identical technology.

With regard to Super Stardust HD I am amongst the 0.1% best players, so I have probably experienced far more of the game than anyone posting here.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 09:23 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 08:12 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 08:11 PM.

@jtsiren

Quote:

MikeB does not want to try to understand, in fact he probably is unable to have a discussion at such a technical level, so trying to have a comparison discussion with him is utterly futile. He just wants to advance his own point of view with supporting material instead of really discussing with us.

Reading back its really funny as the comments I made back then are often now being said in similar style by leading PS3 developers. Really you have to read back on my claims with regard to untapped PS3 potential or past comments from me here from July 2005 with regard to potential roadblocks to be expected with regard to getting multi-platform devs to tap into this potential:

To quote myself with regard to the PS3 and Cell processor from a couple of years ago (July 2005):

"I understand that games developers may not be too fond of the idea of having to learn new ways to write their software"

"for software to really take full advantage of the new Cell technology, software needs to be optimized for using the specialized SPEs"

"Today single CPU solutions are dominant, thus multithreading isn't really that much of a benefit. Software developers who mainly write for single processor solutions don't like doing extra (time=money) work to get the most out of multithreading for other platforms."

@Tomas

Quote:

I doubt anyone can change his mind.. But the opposite opinions do still create some balance in this thread, which is better than having only anti xbox 360 propaganda.

Originally anti-PS3 propaganda was dominant in here, which in effect started the XBox vs PS3 argument. IMO the PS3 arguments are now far stronger, so people I was arguing with seem to be getting a little worried. (Maybe their attack on my integrity and knowledge were unfounded?!)

@BrianK

Quote:

Bestheda duplicated data on the Blu-Ray to help better ensure load speeds

They stated this was greatly exagerrated, I don't mind devs reducing seektimes on DVD or Blu-Ray disc by duplicating some data, on Blu-Ray there's enough space so would result in no-sacrifices.

@BrianK

Quote:

Uncharted is now something I'm looking foward to for the PS3, along with UT3. Too bad neither are out this year.

Uncharted should be released tommorow:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204857

Regarding UT3, they are aiming for a pre-Christmas release. I know the delay has received the most attention, but that is Rein's latest comment.

@BrianK

Quote:

Motorstorm? I had high hopes it basically sucks. Excite Truck is a better game and the visuals really aren't that far apart. Heavenly Sword. very very short. Pretty game and worth playing. I question with the length if it's worth the $$ however.

The graphics of Motorstorm and Excite Truck (480p) are very far apart technically. With regard to game lenght or personal game preferences, note that I was referring to technicals. Sure I would have wished Heavenly Sword and especially Call of Duty 4's ultra short single player campaign to be twice as big.

Quote:

SuperStardustHD -- nice game and while pretty I question if the Xbox or PS2 couldn't have handled this game. Likely they could have.

Utter nonsense, a game similar to Super Stardust HD would have been possible for sure. Know that I have played Super Stardust HD at insane speeds having unlocked hardcore mode.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 07:22 PM.

@Tomas

Quote:

I dont think motorstorm looks as good as some people claim it to be.

IMO the game still beats DiRT, seeing all the cars on screen at once, hopping hills, breaking through walls, blowing up, etc it's far more impressive to me from a technical perspective.

Quote:

I have only tried the demo of heavenly sword

Like with any good game the most impressive parts are later in the game, most impressive part of the game is probably when an army of thousand are all on screen at once. The cutscenes are some of the best.

Quote:

Uncharted i have not tried yet..

The demo is well worth checking out.

@jtsiren

Quote:

There is no real discussion because, as MikeB probably would readily admit, he is not qualified to have that discussion from a technical expertise stand-point - so he uses available quotes instead - and with the sheer volume MikeB does this any attempt at a real discussion is easily side-tracked.

I doubt anyone can change his mind.. But the opposite opinions do still create some balance in this thread, which is better than having only anti xbox 360 propaganda.

@Zardoz

Quote:

What the quotes really do is take the discussion out of your (and our) hands and place developers' opinions we cannot argue with in the thread instead. These developers aren't here and cannot be challenged to explain. And why would anyone who wants to challenge your point of view quote experts on PS3 software development? That would be saying that you are going to quote XBox 360 developers to support how crap the PS3 is, it's not exactly balanced.

Exactly. There is no discussion because what MikeB does is really comb the Internet for comments, links, screenshots, promotional material etc. that supports his point of view and then he offers these here (no matter if they really fit the discussion at hand) as, really, his only - at least main - argument.

There is no real discussion because, as MikeB probably would readily admit, he is not qualified to have that discussion from a technical expertise stand-point - so he uses available quotes instead - and with the sheer volume MikeB does this any attempt at a real discussion is easily side-tracked.

This has happened so many times and it took me a while to sober up and understand this. Perhaps none of us are qualified to really discuss the technical differences, but with a participant like MikeB that little chance we would have had without him is really gone...

It would be one thing if we were to really to try and understand and dive into the internals and experiences surrounding these two machines (Xbox 360 and PS3) and have a balanced discussion about what is better where and why and what that means for game development, but when one major - the major - participant in the discussion continues to flood it with quotes, links, screenshots instead of really offering his own participation in the discussion and trying to evolve a mutual understanding, that goal becomes a distant dream.

MikeB does not want to try to understand, in fact he probably is unable to have a discussion at such a technical level, so trying to have a comparison discussion with him is utterly futile. He just wants to advance his own point of view with supporting material instead of really discussing with us.

PS3 may well be the most powerful console, but this is not the place to really find that out.