@MikeB

Motorstorm? I had high hopes it basically sucks. Excite Truck is a better game and the visuals really aren't that far apart.

Heavenly Sword. very very short. Pretty game and worth playing. I question with the length if it's worth the $$ however.

SuperStardustHD -- nice game and while pretty I question if the Xbox or PS2 couldn't have handled this game. Likely they could have.

Uncharted is now something I'm looking foward to for the PS3, along with UT3. Too bad neither are out this year. 2008 gaming looks much better for the PS3 then 06 or 07 have. As for this comment 'The HDD really came in handy and allowed us to have pretty big open levels with lots of detail.' - I'm sure you realise the 360 has a harddrive and Microsoft now allows games to require it. It appears that use of HDD is needed as many developers are caching content which help off-set Blu-Ray's load times. In addition developers are doing other things. Bestheda duplicated data on the Blu-Ray to help better ensure load speeds, and used caching too.

offtopic: Was it just me or were there some similarities between alien breed 2 soundtrack and the in game soundtrack in Stardust HD?

@MikeB

Quote:

IMO the quotes and example add weight to my comments and thus helps the discussion. If they support your own personal views or not, well that's not my aim, I think you are free to quote people who you think are better experts on PS3 software development.

What the quotes really do is take the discussion out of your (and our) hands and place developers' opinions we cannot argue with in the thread instead. These developers aren't here and cannot be challenged to explain. And why would anyone who wants to challenge your point of view quote experts on PS3 software development? That would be saying that you are going to quote XBox 360 developers to support how crap the PS3 is, it's not exactly balanced.

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@MikeB
I disagree.. I dont think motorstorm looks as good as some people claim it to be. I have seen better looking games already on the xbox 360.
I have only tried the demo of heavenly sword, so i can only judge from that.. But again i am not that impressed..

Uncharted i have not tried yet..

@jtsiren

IMO the quotes and example add weight to my comments and thus helps the discussion. If they support your own personal views or not, well that's not my aim, I think you are free to quote people who you think are better experts on PS3 software development.

Quote:

Lets just enjoy the games... be that on PS3 or Xbox 360.

or Wii or PS2
or yes the Amiga!
or c64 or whatever

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 10:56 AM.

Guys...

Are you really sure you want to waste your time debating this with Mike? This thread is quickly turning into one of those monster threads of last winter/spring! It will go nowhere. Mike will spew quote after quote after quote, screenshot after screenshot, there will be no real discussion.

Time will tell the actual difference between the systems (and I'm not saying there isn't a difference!) - and the impartial tech gurus on other more credible sites.

Lets just enjoy the games... be that on PS3 or Xbox 360.

Last edited by jtsiren on 18-Nov-2007 at 10:43 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 18-Nov-2007 at 10:43 AM.

@Tomas

With games like,

Motorstorm



or Heavenly Sword



the PS3 was already considered to be producing graphical environments fully on par with the best the XBox 360 has to offer. With Ratchet & Clank PS3 games have advanced to the 2nd generation of PS3 games, it really takes the platform to a new level.

IMO R&C TOD is the most impressive retail game available for either platform today and IMO Warhawk and Super Stardust HD are the most impressive games available online for either platform.

Could for instance Naughty Dog's Uncharted be done on the XBox 360? Sure, just like Gears of War would be possible to do on the PSP, but with sacrifices:

Quote:

Obli: How hard would it be to port Uncharted to the Xbox 360? I'm not just talking storage constraints (Blu-ray). Could it be faithfully recreated without the use of Cell? Evan Wells: I won't say that it would be impossible, but it would be very difficult and we most certainly would have to make enough concessions that it would start to feel like a different game. One thing that would be particularly difficult would be keeping the game load-free. The HDD really came in handy and allowed us to have pretty big open levels with lots of detail.

Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 10:54 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 09:42 AM.
Last edited by MikeB on 18-Nov-2007 at 09:39 AM.

@MikeB
Quote:

MikeB wrote: @Tomas I've read the thread in question, most comments are just replies and not reports. I have searched NeoGAF but could only find less than a handfull of isolated incidents (but no actual console deaths on there) regarding this update. Luckily everything works fine for me (60 GB PS3). I'll post when I learn more. BTW, on which planet are you in R&C: TOD?

Yeah, the problem is most likely more rare than common. But i think that is the case with Xbox 360 problems as well. People have a more tendency to post if they experience a problem than if everything works okay.

But anyway.. I have only tried the demo of R&C so far... I can only say that the demo looks good, but cannot judge the game itself before i have tried the full game.
But even then it is so far the only thing that has graphically impressed me when it comes to ps3.
But like i said.. i still think the xbox 360 could have rendered the same kind of graphics.

Last edited by Tomas on 18-Nov-2007 at 02:44 AM.
Last edited by Tomas on 18-Nov-2007 at 02:43 AM.

@MikeB

Quote:

MikeB wrote: @BrianK Quote: Gameplay choices by developers, linear or open, have little to show in relation to console power. It does take a lot more power to be able to fly around huge environments vs very restricted movement.

Yes it does take more power to do that. However,I don't recall GeoW developers saying they had to dump open and move to linear due to lack of system power. It seems the plan was linear from day one. Game makers make decisions for more reasons then hardware power. A GeoW example for you - CliffyB said that there won't be PC to 360 connectivity because there's not time to do that and still get the PC version of the game out by this Christmas. And of course GeoW is linear in it's main story but much more open in multiplayer versus.

@Zardoz

You would agree it wouldn't be possible to port to the c64 without sacrifes despite nobody will ever try this right?

You'll have to play the later parts of the game, so much stuff going on at once at 60 FPS with supreme quality it's really amazing! The SPUs have much wider strongpoints than the PPE or a Xenon core.

The XBox 360 doesn't have Blu-Ray (more data to stream) or a Cell processor and the XBox 360 design is rather bottlenecked with its shared CPU/GPU bus and slower RAM. The low latency high speed XDR RAM in the PS3 is crucial to get the most out of the design.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Nov-2007 at 05:26 PM.

@MikeB

Quote:

Also according to Insomniac the Cell and Blu-Ray are crucial for them to not having to make sacrifices. Have you actually played R&C: TOD?

I haven't played it but I've seen it and I quite like it. This is kinda irrelevant, unless if some developer actually tries it and fails, you cannot say that it cannot be done without sacrifices.

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@Zardoz

Quote:

I love the fact that you're certain enough to say "for sure".

Also according to Insomniac the Cell and Blu-Ray are crucial for them to not having to make sacrifices. Have you actually played R&C: TOD?

@Tomas

I've read the thread in question, most comments are just replies and not reports. I have searched NeoGAF but could only find less than a handfull of isolated incidents (but no actual console deaths on there) regarding this update. Luckily everything works fine for me (60 GB PS3). I'll post when I learn more.

BTW, on which planet are you in R&C: TOD?

@MikeB

Quote:

Not at the same quality and with similar performance for sure. The XBox 360 is much closer to its peak, as can be seen with high profile exclusive games like Halo 3 (640p, no AA) and Mass Effect (framerate issues). These teams have enormous development budgets, have been working on these games for years and don't have to worry about supporting different platforms. The XBox 360's peak potential is more easily reached (on the PS3 you do more modifications to legacy game engines to tap into the power of the SPEs) and the platform has been on the market for over 2 years.

I love the fact that you're certain enough to say "for sure".

_________________

@MikeB
The firmware reports seemed to be mostly restricted to the 60gig version. There are 10 pages at the sony forums with people reporting the same thing. The main problem is that the ps3 suddenly stop reading ps3 games/blueray discs completely soon after updating or in game crashes/glitches and even totally dead machines.

@BrianK

Quote:

In the USA PS2 hardware and software sales have fallen and appears to be nearing end of life.

I heard a smaller and cheaper PS2 will be released somewhere at the beginning of 2008.

Quote:

Gameplay choices by developers, linear or open, have little to show in relation to console power.

It does take a lot more power to be able to fly around huge environments vs very restricted movement. Great draw distance in R&C: TOD!

@Tomas

Quote:

It is indeed a very beautiful game, but i am not convinced that it cannot be done on the xbox 360

Not at the same quality and with similar performance for sure. The XBox 360 is much closer to its peak, as can be seen with high profile exclusive games like Halo 3 (640p, no AA) and Mass Effect (framerate issues). These teams have enormous development budgets, have been working on these games for years and don't have to worry about supporting different platforms. The XBox 360's peak potential is more easily reached (on the PS3 you do more modifications to legacy game engines to tap into the power of the SPEs) and the platform has been on the market for over 2 years.

Quote:

What do you by the way think about the reported bricked ps3 machines?

Last things I've heard there was some rumour of PS3 40GB failures, but that was retracted and Sony responded overall failure rates are the same as the 60 GB, meaning extremely low.

There have also been reports of people having problems with the latest firmware update and an updated firmware is rumoured to be available soon. Other than that I haven't recently tracked failures.

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Nov-2007 at 05:54 PM.

@Samwel
Quote:

Yes, their approach is indeed different. Sony tried to put in all and every feature possible from get go. This proved to be too expensive in the end. Not expensive as is but rather compared as a console and towards its competitors.

Hardware wise yes, the extra year and developing Blu-Ray themselves likely was an advantage in Sony's favor. Day one the 360's OS was more well baked then the PS3's. As a PS3 owner I feel that I received an unbaked pie, it's now been assembled and is still cooking but closer to done.

I think the arguement is fair for the PS3 that it's not expensive for what one gets. However, also think the arguement is fair that it's too expensive for the market and Sony knows this which is why the feature/price cuts.

Quote:

Yes, if I have haven't misunderstood what I have read, they will loose money atleast during 2008, probably 2009 aswell. It's planned, no?

Likely some loss was planned. But, one has to question did Sony really plan to lose money and be the 3rd best seller at this point? Why would the #1 company plan for #3? I don't think they would and that's why we're seeing a feature/cost reduced console. They're trying to maintain their position.

Quote:

I can understand MikeB's point. There can't be much more Wii can do that can't be done technically on the PS2 aswell? Just because it's new doesn't mean it's this gen featurewise. But I can see your point aswell. It's taking customers from PS3 and 360 (competing on the same market) and must thus be compared to these.

I agree that featurewise the Wii is comparable to the PS2. From what I've seen it's slightly more powerful then an Xbox.

In the USA PS2 hardware and software sales have fallen and appears to be nearing end of life. I think this Christmas will be it's last significant sales. As it makes Sony money I see them attempting a last PS2 salvo, maybe another price cut or revision in 08. A good example of how the market is moving on is that EA, mainly cross platform company, reported $100M+ sales decline of PS2 sales and am even greater sales increase for the 360. In the case of EA 360's sales have replaced the PS2 sales.

Will the Wii's sales and console hold up? Good question. I think it likely it won't. I can see Nintendo redoing the Wii to freshen and enhance it. Similar to how the Gameboy or DS have changed over time.

Quote:

I think Sony may already be working on full software emulation. Is it really that hard for them to do? The CPU and PS2 system is already emulated, only the graphics engine is left to emulate.

The only reason for Sony would make this investment is if they can sell it as an add-on or they think putting it back in will move more consoles. But, if what you say is right and most people don't care then making a software version won't give them any advantage. Their money is probably better spent at adding new features, movies, and games.

Microsoft has recently announced downloadable Xbox games for the 360. It's $15 per game. I can see Sony following this path attempting to get more cash off of older games by offering them for sale in an online store. I think this is the more likely direction they'll be going with older games.



@MikeB
Quote:

Forget the caged linear Gears, the non-bosses in R&C are way more impressive than the end game boss in Gears on the 360

Gameplay choices by developers, linear or open, have little to show in relation to console power.

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Mark Rein (2007)=> PS3 UT3 Graphics Better Than Gears Of War and UT3 runs better on PS3 than Gears on 360

I'd say UT3 will run better on the 360 then Gears of War did. The GeoW developers were clear that while their game used the most out of the console they had learned how to program better and expect their next games to benefit from that knowledge. UT3 for the PS3 benefited from the 360 in so far as GeoW was a first stab at refining the multithreaded engine on a console. My question is, will the UT3's better graphics on the PS3 do enough to increase sales on the PS3 that will off-set the extra developer time involvement? If it turns out the 360 version sells better I'd seriously have to question the approach of investing the extra cost into using the PS3 more effectively. Developers would bet better off doing a straight port and reaping larger profits. That being said we won't know until the sales occur.

@MikeB
Quote:

Just wanting to say Ratchet & Clank: TOD is absolutely awesome, the best smooth graphics I have seen to date! The game really shows off well that the PS3 is really *much* more powerful than the XBox 360.

It is indeed a very beautiful game, but i am not convinced that it cannot be done on the xbox 360.

What do you by the way think about the reported bricked ps3 machines?

The Uncharted demo available on the US PSN store is very good as well, good Sixaxis usage in Naughty Dog and Insomniac games, in Uncharted you use it for balance and throwing grenades. A lot of attention for detail like walking in water will wet your pants to the level you were in the water, going under completely and you're completely soaked.

Check out the tons of footage available here:
http://www.gametrailers.com/player/28029.html

Last edited by MikeB on 17-Nov-2007 at 11:43 AM.