@jtsiren

Quote:

I think AMiGR wants structural changes to prevent motherboard warping. Microsoft seems to agree that is part of the problem because they used the glue solution in the Elite. I think that would be wise as a port of the total solution.

No doubt that's what AMiGR is thinking. The question is to what extent is the motherboard warping. Does it truly need a structural reinforcement from a heatsink? I think there's a reason it's called a heat sink and not a backplane reinforcer. Clamp that heatsink on too tightly and one will increase chances of cracking CPU/GPU and creating a problem of different sorts. If as you indicated in your post that the quality of the solder is the problem the best change would be to use better solder, seeming less expensive then a heatsink change and gets to the heart of the issue. Though as we've both indicated there is glue and a heatsink change already which at least in the case of the Elites isn't eliminating the problem but seemingly reports of overheating problems are much less frequent and DVD problems seem to be what's being reported on the Elites.

I agree PR should be better from Microsoft. They seemingly are taking the Sony PS2 problem route and deny/deny/deny. It was finally after an extensive feedback from the communities when Sony fessed up to some of the issues. Of course their solution then was to simply publish lists of games that didn't work on certain console revisions, I don't recall they ever recalled their DVD issues. I'd like to see Microsoft learn from Sony's mistake and do better for the community.

When/if a fix is available for Xboxen I'll be sure to send mine in. As for being an 11+Xbox guy that's luckily a statistical outlier and very very abnormal. Though again I still question what the guy's setup was and if he provided proper cooling per the manual. Hey but I know about being that statistical outlier our first Toyota a 2000 Avalon is a POS. Toyota's have the reliability reputation but I'll never try another Toyota this is the first car ever, not even my 1977 Pinto, had a complete engine rebuild at 70K, luckily it was covered. For comparison our 1997 Ford F250 with more miles has never needed it's engine rebuilt or costed me what this POS Avalon has.

@jtsiren

Quote:

Where are the reports of people killing their Xbox 360 Elites due to overheating?

For example at NeoGAF. And yes, most problems are still regarding overheating. Heatgun and towel tricks work just as well or bad as they did with the other versions.

XBox 360 Elite users are hard to find, the other XBox 360 versions greatly outsold it even during the Elite's US launch period. To find them, start looking in hardcore gaming forums like on NeoGAF.

@MikeB

Quote:

What unfortunate events? PM, instead of posting crap like this in public. At the very least post some proof together with your false allegations...

To those who see the past of this forum and yourself as I do, the joke was obvious and it was funny based on our assessment and opinion of the past. I am sure you know what it refers to, and I can see you do not agree. Fine, let us leave it at that. If we have time, maybe we can PM about it later for some mutual agreement.

@MikeB

Quote:

They break easily, but very few people have them for a very short time. But I have read enough and seen enough to know they are also prone to overheating like I said, I did not state any figures as that's impossible considering the short time on the market.

Clearly a batch of Xbox 360 Elites were faulty. Many reports about dead on arrival ring of deaths. Also reports of DVD drive failures. These we agree on, no need to argue them and no need to post any more pictures of the ring on Elites. We know this. It does not answer my question.

You keep saying these things break easily and it seems you are suggesting they are prone to the same kind of overheating issues that the rest are - but are you sure? Where are the reports of people killing their Xbox 360 Elites due to overheating? I didn't find any with Google. I'm sure there are some, but please lets see them so we can assess this issue in more detail. There can very well be such reports, I just didn't find them - so anyone who does find them, please post links.

It is also possible, considering what Micromart said - the company you are all too eager to quote when they were pulling out of fixing Xbox 360's - the issue was to an extent limited to machines built before late last year and related to solder. What changed after October last year? If something significant did change (and Elite added the glue), we can't *for sure* say things are like before.

We need more information. I know your agenda, but I'd like to see the information for myself before judging the Elite as a certain soon-to-be-dead like many other Xbox 360's seem to be. I actually thought first that, yes, Elite's are just as prone, but when I started looking I couldn't find any reports actually saying Elite's died because of over-heating.

@jtsiren

Quote:

I agree with Seehund of the unfortunate events and that's that.

What unfortunate events? PM, instead of posting crap like this in public. At the very least post some proof together with your false allegations...

@jtsiren

Quote:

MikeB makes it sound like Elite is just as easy to break down, but is this really what people are reporting?

They break easily, but very few people have them for a very short time. But I have read enough and seen enough to know they are also prone to overheating like I said, I did not state any figures as that's impossible considering the short time on the market.

The board design is not much different:





At least the Red light does stand out better on the Elite...



http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3240/dsc00016yj6py2.jpg

"I've only had it for 5 weeks now. :( I only play it for 2-3 hours per day and I always turn it off when not in use. It red-ringed while I was playing 3rd Strike for about 10 minutes (I haven't turned it at all yesterday)."

http://aycu20.webshots.com/image/20339/2002982552409414214_rs.jpg

The traditional XBox 360 towel trick...
http://aycu18.webshots.com/image/18017/2002968207264067021_rs.jpg
User1: "I feel ridiculous... -_-"
User2: "Don't forget to burp it."

Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jul-2007 at 08:51 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jul-2007 at 03:44 PM.
Last edited by MikeB on 01-Jul-2007 at 03:42 PM.

@BrianK

Quote:

nteresting! AMiGR wants the fix to be mandatory changes to the heat sinks. If it is the solder even if the heat sink is changed it may not cool enough or be tight enough to prevent a long term issue

I think AMiGR wants structural changes to prevent motherboard warping. Microsoft seems to agree that is part of the problem because they used the glue solution in the Elite. I think that would be wise as a port of the total solution.

As for the problem - Micromart says the solder problem is inherent to machines manufactured before late last year. What changed after that - did they change the solder or something else? I think the glue solution made its appearance only in the Elite in, was it, May?

Quote:

Reading threads on broken Xboxen you definitely find nearly no mention of the Elites except for, as you indicated, some DVD issues.

That is certainly an interesting aspect, because if Elites are not failing due to overheating related structural issues, the glue and any other changes made since possily late last year (changes in solder - if Micromart is correct) might be helping. OTOH, if Elites ARE failing in a similar manner then these changes are not helping...

My opinion on Microsoft handling this issue is right there earlier in this thread for everyone to see, I despise some of their comments. OTOH, I stand by the opinion that Xbox 360 is a great system and thus I have a vested interest in seeing this thing for what it is as clearly as possible as well as getting to know what is done to fix it, so that I can continue to enjoy the machine in the future as well. I have no interest in being a 11+ Xbox 360's kind of a guy, but I would like to eventually get my Xbox 360 fixed or upgraded once I know these issues have been sorted out for good. Hopefully I'll never have any issues in any case, but I'd like to make certain.

If they won't be sorted out for good, then I think we need to continue to build the pressure online for Microsoft to do the right thing. Luckily, I think they are doing the right thing behind the scenes - but their PR on this is inexcusably horrible and I know it is costing them at least some sales.

@MikeB

Quote:

Thanks for dragging this thread off topic...

Me!?! See the last few posts, I have been trying to drag the thread back on topic after you and some others tried to make it a console comparison thread again. Seehund was off-topic, but he was funny you gotta admit - as funny as your sinking Xbox 360 ship... Yeah, funny in a very twisted way given the past but still, both were funny.

As for the past, I have no interest in discussing it with you in the thread at least - I agree with Seehund of the unfortunate events and that's that. If you want to debate it, feel free to PM me.

Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Jul-2007 at 03:22 PM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Jul-2007 at 03:21 PM.

@Seehund & jtsiren

Quit the ####, at least post some proof while posting false allegations.

Thanks for dragging this thread off topic...

@jtsiren

Quote:

they believe that every console manufactured prior to October last year will have the same problem with the lead free solder used with the GPU, which dries out in the heat and leads to overheating

Interesting! AMiGR wants the fix to be mandatory changes to the heat sinks. If it is the solder even if the heat sink is changed it may not cool enough or be tight enough to prevent a long term issue. Seemingly the new heatsink and glue solutions may be just as good as the AMiGR desired solution. Of course in order to see if AMiGR is right we'd need a batch of both and time to see the impacts. In this case the best fix would be to use an improved solder.

Does anyone know if the GPU is going 65nm too? The hardening with glue, reduced cooling and new heatsink may be just enough to keep the solder from drying out but I'd still question the long term ability for the solder to not dry out. So the console may work longer but perhaps not as long as other consoles have.

As for your request on Elite failures, I've seen 1 thread asking for type of system and Elites were much less. Again not scientific but they were less impacted as a % of total elites. Reading threads on broken Xboxen you definitely find nearly no mention of the Elites except for, as you indicated, some DVD issues.

@Seehund

Quote:

Hear, hear! I for one am deeply touched by your unselfish altruism, MikeB. I do believe that your consumer awareness campaigns are a great tradition here on AW.net. I remember all the free and open discussion about other, actually relevant to AW.net users, and much more prevalent hardware problems that was both initiated and encouraged by you here in the past, for which AW.net once got deservedly famous throughout the community. Keep standing up for the Little Guy!

ROTFL...

But please guys, lets pour in data of the subject matter. It is at least interesting to those who have a vested interest in great gaming no matter the platform providing it - I want my Xbox 360 experience to continue being a positive one so getting to the bottom of this is useful.

Edit: Just to be clear - subject matter meaning information on the topic of this thread, Xbox 360 failures.

Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Jul-2007 at 03:23 PM.

@hatschi

Quote:

@MikeB Thanks for your sincere and heartfelt advice.

Hear, hear! I for one am deeply touched by your unselfish altruism, MikeB. I do believe that your consumer awareness campaigns are a great tradition here on AW.net. I remember all the free and open discussion about other, actually relevant to AW.net users, and much more prevalent hardware problems that was both initiated and encouraged by you here in the past, for which AW.net once got deservedly famous throughout the community. Keep standing up for the Little Guy!

Quote:

I assure you that I won't buy an XBox360. Luckily, my Atari 2600 doesn't have any overheating or disc-scratching issues. ;)

My "Game & Watch" consoles still work too (those that the dog didn't chew on, at least), and that's probably the last gaming-dedicated hardware I'll ever buy.

_________________
Oh, bother.

Found this:

Quote:

we play Xbox spoke to Micromart to ask them why they’ve decided to pull out of repairing the ring of death fault and they told us the problem is deep-seated and lies in the initial manufacturing of the console - they believe that every console manufactured prior to October last year will have the same problem with the lead free solder used with the GPU, which dries out in the heat and leads to overheating. This means thousands of consoles are out there with the same problem.

Again, if the refurbs making the rounds are also as old as many of the other machines breaking, the best thing that could happen is probably that they stop refurbing those if Micromart (who MikeB linked to in the first message) know what they are talking about and the latest builds are not as susceptible to such issues. I wonder where Micromart got that October date.

As for the Elite (definitely newer than October last year) which has also been said to have problems I'm not sure if those are the same. The ring of light, three lights too, can display a multitude of errors the same way. If a box is e.g. broken when taken out of the packaging, that is not an over-heating issue but a quality control one, I've read some reports of power supply problems but again that is not the major issue that seems to be killing truck-loads of XO's...

Any links to reports of Xbox 360 Elite's dying by the numbers?

This one is dead out of box, so that is just a quality control or shipping damage issue:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153089

Here is a general article on Elite issues, but no detailed reports - the video relates to an unplayable disc problem, not the ring of death:
http://loot-ninja.com/2007/04/29/xbox-360-elite-prone-to-same-problems-as-others/

Similar article but again no overheating reports, this includes mention of disc-scratching:
http://spong.com/article/12415?cb=648

Here is a thread about Elite overheating, but again it is just to note that 65nm isn't yet there and doesn't include any reports of people actually breaking the machine due to overheating:
http://www.xbox360forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39738

This one had the single lower-right red led issue, which would seem to point perhaps to a DVD drive failure:
http://tigerplug.wordpress.com/2007/05/01/xbox-360-elite-problems-xbox-360-elite-doa/

Again, here dead on arrival:
http://www.switched.com/2007/04/30/xbox-360-elites-showing-up-dead-on-arrival/

All reports I've seen of Elite's have been DVD drive problems or might be, or that they have been dead on arrival... Not that that is excusable in any way, but that seems to be a problem with the DVD drive batch and quality control rather than the most severe issue of structural failings due to overheating. Where are reports of Xbox 360 Elite breaking down due to overheating?

We can also discuss any quality issues the Xbox 360 may have, but I think the most critical issue is the overheating related one that seems to be killing machine after machine - any other issues are likely fixed by maintenance and thus dwarf in comparison to this huge issue of Xbox 360's dying like flies. What isn't kosher is if even a fixed machine is susceptible to early breakdowns and thus I think it is important to try to isolate the overheating issue (and ring of death's related to that) from other perhaps "easier" issues IMHO.

Feel free to disagree and say so, I don't want to and will not argue the point, but I would really like to understand if Elite's have been also dying of overheating by the bucket load or if the problems are something else. MikeB makes it sound like Elite is just as easy to break down, but is this really what people are reporting? Add on this if you will, I'd like to know. That would certainly help in determining if Micromart's assessment about the solder date is correct as well as if the glue on Xbox 360 Elite mother boards is helping at all.

Anyone break Xbox 360 Elite playing Forza 2? I also wonder what is the reason Forza 2 is bricking those machines. Can it be overheating if it happens minutes after start or could the game be doing something else entirely (like mess up some firmware or something due to a bug)... Overheating would be a logical candidate, of course.

Related:

Quote:

But now Microsoft is fitting all new Xbox 360s with additional cooling parts to eliminate the problem for good. In some countries, Microsoft will fit these cooling features into existing consoles free of charge. No word yet as to whether the UK will be one of those lucky territories

http://www.tech.co.uk/home-entertainment/gaming/games-consoles/news/microsoft-kills-off-xbox-360-ring-of-death?articleid=1434290555

Again, of course no information whether or not the added heatsink actually helps enough.

Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Jul-2007 at 12:20 AM.
Last edited by jtsiren on 01-Jul-2007 at 12:18 AM.

Please guys, on-topic ok?

More stats - Finnish LiveGamers forums poll:

78% Xbox 360 broken never
16% Xbox 360 broken once
6% Xbox 360 broken more than once

A bit better stats than some, but still terrible. Again, of course not a scientific survey.

In total I guess more pointers towards that the speculated 20% - 50% failure rate is a possibility. Again, also reading more on this a lot circles around the fact that the same refurbished machines are making rounds after being fixed thus creating a cumulative effect when the issue is never really resolved fully. Time will tell if the new fixes (glue and heatsinks) getting into the machine base will start to reverse this course or if they are too little to help.

It is apparent that Xbox 360 users are wise to try and provide as much cooling to their system as possible. Maybe an A/C unit pointed at the machine at all times or putting it in a mini-fridge?

@MikeB

well its true as for reliability the Xbox360 is total crap EVERYONE of my friends who purchased the Xbox360 here in Australia around 17 or 18 of them
have died not one of them is still working not one has been replaced due to out of warenty most have hit the bin

@MikeB

Yes, but your argument still goes no way to proving that the PS2 is current generation - how can it be?

Just because something is still for sale, it does not mean it is "current" generation.
Sorry Mike, I respect your opinion and all but not agreeing with this one.

Cheers,
Rude!

_________________
2017 Camaro 2SS

@Rudei

I won't comment any further on the issue other than this comment, there's a good line-up of PS2 games coming and the PS2 like the PS3 is going to sell in the millions for this year.

The Amiga 500 was an entry Amiga product, an A2000 with graphic card, sound card and processor upgrade board would be a high end product. They were however being sold simultaneously, dividing the consoles in generations is only meant to simplify things for people including the press (objective criteria aren't defined at all).

I bought A500/A600 games for my A1200, at a time when the A600 and A1200 were released very close to each other. Today I buy PS2 games for my PS3 and the PS2 slimline product is still being sold, actually Sony may have some surprising projects later this year for their lowend entry Playstation product.

@MikeB

How can PS2 be current generation? Think you're missing the point a little.

Just because it is still being sold, does not make it current generation - specification-wise it is an old model according to Sony's portfolio.

Splitting hairs maybe, but current generation it is not.

Rude!

_________________
2017 Camaro 2SS

@MikeB

Quote:

I hope that their actions will backfire on them, there were reports of hundreds of people posting in that thread about Red Ring system failures, there were over 970 comments the last time I checked yesterday....

I don't have any doubt it has already backfired on them.

The real question now is: What will Microsoft do to make this all right? And if that will be enough. I doubt silently improving fixed machines with hacks and patches will suffice for long - this thing is getting big enough to warrant the real attention of even such a giant as Microsoft.

They stand a lot to loose. (So does the gaming world, of course.)

@jtsiren

I hope that their actions will backfire on them, there were reports of hundreds of people posting in that thread about Red Ring system failures, there were over 970 comments the last time I checked yesterday....

Gaming Today

Microsoft Covering Up Forza 2 Crash Forum
http://news.filefront.com/microsoft-covering-up-forza-2-crash-forum/