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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 23:08:10
#541 ]
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Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

@ChrisH :

Can you understand people may have different opinion than yours, accept it, and not reject them like you're doing ?

This is something we find in minorities. Any deviant is being rejected...

Next step would be to understand why these people think so... This may not be as stupid as you think... But we're far from that :)

Last edited by Leo on 25-Mar-2009 at 11:09 PM.

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Panthro 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 23:21:23
#542 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-May-2006
Posts: 386
From: Unknown

I think the only comment here needs to be that Hyperion said no ages ago and at that time they said the answer would always be no.

and I personally think X86 is synonamus with pirate's & OS4.X would not survive that!!

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HenryCase 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 23:21:48
#543 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 688
From: Unknown

@Leo
The difference is that the arguments shouldn't be based on opinions but on facts. If you base your arguments on opinions which are misguided expect to be called up on it.

It may be your opinion that OS4 should move to x86, but it is a fact that this will not happen without funding, funding that your opinion is not kind enough to provide.

Everyone deserves to be listened to, but not everyone has an opinion that deserves to be taken seriously. Do you get it now?

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ChrisH 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 23:37:06
#544 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@HenryCase
Yes, that's exactly right. I like people arguing using facts & intelligence. But what we have here is people arguing based on opinion & usually extremely poor (if not blatantly wrong) knowledge.

I'd love OS4 on x86, or PPC Mac, or PS3, and have in fact argued strongly for some of those a few years ago. But there are some clear-cut facts (which people are ignoring) which mean this simply is not going to happen. I can't help it if people choose to ignore reality, or argue about things way out of their depth.

P.S. I didn't mind this thread when it was 5 pages, but after 25 pages (and several other threads) about the same bloody thing, it's getting stupid. Some people need to learn to focus on the salient points, and not get bogged down with side-issues, straw men & circular arguments.

P.S. If you noticed, I actually provided some reason in my earlier post that explained why I thought what I did. If you want to avoid another 25 pages of circular rubbish, you might like to actually try addressing those points, rather than picking on something irrelevant.

Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Mar-2009 at 11:44 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Mar-2009 at 11:41 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Mar-2009 at 11:40 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 25-Mar-2009 at 11:40 PM.

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paolone 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 25-Mar-2009 23:48:51
#545 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2007
Posts: 982
From: Unknown

@eniacfoa

Quote:
I never said I reject AROS. I said from what ive seen AROS is not viewed by most as a true amiga OS.


Yes. And that's only for two main reasons:

1. it runs on evil hardware;

2. there is not a beloved strong company behind it, which would give it "officiality" and serenity to its users.

Believe it or not, AROS is maybe more AmigaOS than its official modern reincarnation, as it is born within the Amiga community, thanks to a little crowd of people who realized, long ago, that this community should have stopped dreaming, struggling and debating, and start doing something instead.

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ferrels 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:02:16
#546 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2005
Posts: 714
From: Arizona

@ChrisH

"Can those whinging for OS4 on x86 please just switch to AROS & shut up?"

How much brain-effort did you have to exert to come up with the above statement? Same goes for the rest of your statements. My 10 year old daughter knows the difference between constructive dialogue and preaching. Maybe you should become an evangelist because at best you're acting like a preacher and at worst acting you're like a kindergardener. And yes, your statements sound incredibly intolerant s0 be our guest and go to amigans.net

Last edited by ferrels on 26-Mar-2009 at 12:03 AM.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:04:51
#547 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
Since when do you need money to fund development ?

While it's true that some companies are making a lot of donations to different Linux-centric development, in the first place no one gave any money to Linus to develop Linux...

Why would it be different for an Amiga like OS ?


And many are working for free, AFAIK. Maybe or maybe not not all, AFAIK, but that's not really our business.

If you're saying, 'open source it,' well, there isn't a sustainable business model then for Hyperion, now is there?

In general, it's much more difficult to 'force' a release, or even just milestones, on a group of people in an open source, or not for pay project.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:06:43
#548 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@fairlanefastback

Quote:
I would suspect hundreds of thousands, if not more. But whether I am right or wrong is meaningless. Whats meaningful to us all is Hyperion has decided its would not be financially worth it already. Thats really the bottom line isn't it?


I'd wager that number is quite low, at least to have it done in a reasonable amount of time, which certainly matters in 'the Amiga market of today.'

You all also continue to make the assumption that Hyperion may port to whatever architecture they see fit to, finance issues and business plan laid aside, for the moment.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:09:34
#549 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@whose


Quote:
That isn´t true. Linus got money, but for a totally different work. If he had to live from absolutely nothing, he wouldn´t even started to develop Linux (how would he have done that, without money for a computer?). He was founded for his study and cross-financed Linux development this way. This was only possible because he wasn´t forced to do some upfront-funding, which is essential for AmigaOS development (licenses, ya know?)


Going from memory, Linus actually started and released Linux 'to the world' while he was still a student, I believe at helsinki University, so no, he was not 'paid' for initial versions of Linux. However, it was an interesting product (besides MINIX (eww)), there was no 'low dollar Unix', nor many 'hobby OSes' to play with, and it was all open source, as more and more people were getting online.

The history there simply is not so easy to repeat.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:11:38
#550 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
@SHADES
Quote:

That's very nice of you to not charge, but I have to pay for those apps anyway on the Winblowz OS, I would rather use AOS and there should be some reward. Heck i bought MUI for My 1200 and Wordsworth and countless other apps and games, AmiIRC too etc...

You don't have to pay for VLC, nor you have to pay for XChat, nor you have to pay for OpenOffice, nor you have to pay for any GUI toolkit on Windows.


Off topic, but did Qt change their license, then?

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:13:29
#551 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

AmigaHeretic wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:


Hyperion is not Walmart. They are more like a small country store in Vermont. They make small profits and have a small customer base, but a loyal one. Pretending to be Walmart is not going to change what they are. And only a Walmart would have the cash to do what you want, what you are asking them to do.



They DO have the cash. The money has been spent desinging the various version of SAM!


A few years ago when you said they need to design a brand new motherboard just for AmigaOS, people would have said, "THAT"S CRAZY talk! They can't afford that!! You don't know how much it costs to make a new motherboard in such small runs!!!!"


Why does Hyperion want their "own" hardware?? I don't get why the SAM exists? I mean certainly they are not selling SAM/OS as an embedded device or ever plan to.



Umm, now you are confusing Hyperion and ACube? Hyperion did not develop the SAM.

RE: 'own hardware,' again, think about legal cases ongoing.

If neither of the above make sense to you, you may want to refrain from at least these discussions and suggesting 'realism' is involved in your thoughts on the subject.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:15:52
#552 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@fairlanefastback

Quote:
But so what, it stating the obvious that x86 would be the best future. But we need to be realistic that presently there is no one to hear our song and answer it with a solution realistically.


We will go x86.... perhaps in OS5, but x86 is the only future!

All the best,

D.


Were you going to try to contribute something to the discussion or simply repeat the same thing over and over? Yes, I'm being serious - 'we must go x86' 37 times really isn't 'discussion,' it's spam.

edit - removed semi-flame on my own part.

Last edited by wegster on 26-Mar-2009 at 10:02 PM.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:21:18
#553 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eniacfoa

Quote:
Ainc claim to have plenty of cash. Ainc have ways outside of OS4 of making money. All the eggs dont have to be in the one basket. Ainc doesnt need 1 million users to be commercially viable.
It never was the number one computer...you only have to carve out a niche...

I dont think it would take the miracle you speak of if Ainc wanted to do it.

If we had a talented company president who genuinely wanted to see Ainc grow as a computer platform, someone who wasn't a fradulent criminal, I dont think the situation would seem as bleak as it does now.


I do believe you're living at least somewhat in dreamland here...AInc has spent what to date on OS4 development? Somewhere around $25,000USD, plus some $ for a port to a reference PDA? They also made many promises, all broken. Kent Arena? OS5 'better than OSX'? (How about, where is it at ALL?) 'Amiga hardware?' How many on the OS4 dev team would even *work* for AInc if somehow they wound up with OS4 intact by some miracle?

Do you really think a port to x86, with working JIT, would cost so little that AInc would actually *have* the cash, and actually spend it?

Unlikely.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:25:10
#554 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@fairlanefastback

Quote:

fairlanefastback wrote:
@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@fairlanefastback


Same thing as by the consumer electronics. Why to mass produce 1080p TV`s
when first you can do the 720p ones and latter put a new standard and replace
720 with 1080 ones... In the meanwhile you are getting 2x the money... Got it?
Same stuff, different package...



You obviously don't understand economies of scale, ROI, or the fact that the creators of HD electronics are in an entirely different league when it comes to funding, cash on hand, available credit, manpower, etc.

Your occasional outbusts with stuff like "yes the dead platform , it must go, we must move on and we will!!" aren't going to actually get anything done in the real world.


Thank you. I do wish those without anything actually worthy of discussion, would refrain from posting the equivalent of 'me too' many times. This thread might then be sane to attempt to read from the start, for those simply reading.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:29:05
#555 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@eXec

Quote:

eXec wrote:
@TheDaddy

Quote:
Even if it happened who would actually give a flying monkey about it when there is Windows and Linux, two Operating Systems that have been running on x86 for years?



If Hyperion , even AInc shoots out an upcoming x86 ported AOS, you will be among
first people who will buy the hardware and the OS itself. Won`t you?

All the best,

D.


Do you *really* not realize how utterly unlikely even if AInc 'wins' the court case, that they would be *capable* of *ever* releasing another version of AOS? The entire set of rights to OS4 is not Hyperions to give, even if they were so inclined to do so. And it is not so simple as 'ok, we'll code for a few days,' especially for a company like AInc, with barring Jamie Krueger, no indication of any real talent existing.

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wegster 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 0:30:51
#556 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Nov-2004
Posts: 8554
From: RTP, NC USA

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
Can those whinging for OS4 on x86 please just switch to AROS & shut up? As much as I'd like to see OS4 on x86, it 'aint gonna happen, even if I stamp my feet really hard, so we have to accept that & make do with what we have. It's call growing up. AROS no good for you? Well tough, but it seems like OS4 is no better for you either.

Can those who want to do the latest Windows/Mac/Linux craze on OS4, like say playing High Def videos, please just get a Windows/Mac/Linux PC & shut up? There is simply no chance for OS4 to (a) get all the applications ported to do all these things, (b) get them ported well enough that they are not slow (it's called optimisation), and (c) does not have the processing power & has never had the processing power to compete with x86.

Can those who want a faster CPU than the Sam440 has, please learn some patience? ACube (and possibly others) are likely working on 1GHz or faster systems, but this takes time & money. Sam440 was a first (or second) step for OS4, but it was not the last.

Can those who think that they know better than Hyperion what they should do, please just buy-out Hyperion? Then you can get them to do what you want. Don't have the money? Gee, that couldn't possibly be the reason Hyperion doesn't do some of the things you think are "obvious" for OS4 to survive? Perhaps you could get a loan from the bank? What, banks won't give loans? Something about a world-wide recession?

Can those who think OS4 can be ported to x86 in 6 weeks (or whatever), please tell Hyperion where they can find a free 68k or PPC JIT emulator for x86 that will easily integrate into OS4's Exec kernel & memory system? If you found one, you are likely wrong. Without such emulation, OS4 on x86 would be an expensive toy, because it'd have no apps or games to speak of. And if you think "UAE is good enough", then you might want to ask why people haven't switch to AROS then. Not to mention that if you're going to use UAE, you might as well use UAE on Windows, and save yourself the trouble.

Can all non-programmers please stop thinking they they know how easy it is to port OS4 to x86? If you've never flown an air plane, you wouldn't tell a pilot how to fly! So why would you suddenly think you're an expert programmer, never mind an expert OS designer?


Sorry if this sounds incredibly in-tolerant, but having come back to AW.net after a break, I am stunned at all the complete stupid arguments going on here. Really, it's enough to make me think of moving to Amigans.net, if it goes on for much longer.


Good post. Agree with all of it, except for the obvious one about going to some other site, and playing HD video, which should be possible at some point, anyways.

Last edited by wegster on 26-Mar-2009 at 12:31 AM.

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HenryCase 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 1:15:38
#557 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 12-Nov-2007
Posts: 688
From: Unknown

@ferrels

Quote:

ferrels wrote:
@ChrisH

"Can those whinging for OS4 on x86 please just switch to AROS & shut up?"

How much brain-effort did you have to exert to come up with the above statement? Same goes for the rest of your statements. My 10 year old daughter knows the difference between constructive dialogue and preaching. Maybe you should become an evangelist because at best you're acting like a preacher and at worst acting you're like a kindergardener. And yes, your statements sound incredibly intolerant s0 be our guest and go to amigans.net


The statement may have been a little preachy rather than constructive criticism in it's most helpful form but when your audience refuses to listen to the latter I can sympathise with the frustration that leads to reaching for the former. In any case, working with AROS is good advice to those on x86 mission, putting aside of the delivery of that advice.

@wegster

Quote:

wegster wrote:
@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote:
@SHADES
[quote]
That's very nice of you to not charge, but I have to pay for those apps anyway on the Winblowz OS, I would rather use AOS and there should be some reward. Heck i bought MUI for My 1200 and Wordsworth and countless other apps and games, AmiIRC too etc...

You don't have to pay for VLC, nor you have to pay for XChat, nor you have to pay for OpenOffice, nor you have to pay for any GUI toolkit on Windows.


Off topic, but did Qt change their license, then?
[/quote]

Nokia offer (or will be offering soon, I forget) Qt under LGPL in addition to the other licenses for it that exist.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 1:27:12
#558 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

Quote:

Off topic, but did Qt change their license, then?

They did.

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Leo 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 1:27:44
#559 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1585
From: Unknown

Quote:

If you're saying, 'open source it,' well, there isn't a sustainable business model then for Hyperion, now is there?

Ever noticed the "Entertaiment" in "Hyperion Entertainment" ? ;)

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eniacfoa 
Re: ...My dear Hyperion, is now the time to go to --> x86 ???
Posted on 26-Mar-2009 4:03:21
#560 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Sep-2007
Posts: 355
From: Melbourne

@wegster


Quote:

wegster wrote:
@eniacfoa

Quote:
Ainc claim to have plenty of cash. Ainc have ways outside of OS4 of making money. All the eggs dont have to be in the one basket. Ainc doesnt need 1 million users to be commercially viable.
It never was the number one computer...you only have to carve out a niche...

I dont think it would take the miracle you speak of if Ainc wanted to do it.

If we had a talented company president who genuinely wanted to see Ainc grow as a computer platform, someone who wasn't a fradulent criminal, I dont think the situation would seem as bleak as it does now.


I do believe you're living at least somewhat in dreamland here...AInc has spent what to date on OS4 development? Somewhere around $25,000USD, plus some $ for a port to a reference PDA? They also made many promises, all broken. Kent Arena? OS5 'better than OSX'? (How about, where is it at ALL?) 'Amiga hardware?' How many on the OS4 dev team would even *work* for AInc if somehow they wound up with OS4 intact by some miracle?

Do you really think a port to x86, with working JIT, would cost so little that AInc would actually *have* the cash, and actually spend it?

Unlikely.



if you go back and read the 8 pages or so of debate we had you will find more detail.

I know they wont do anything for AOS.

its really annoying having people come in to your argument after they've read 1% of what youve said and then they give you replies that are meaningless.


edit - people who dont like the thread are actually free to ignore it!

Last edited by eniacfoa on 26-Mar-2009 at 04:13 AM.

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