@Interesting

Quote:

Fish farms are very useful to "endangered species". Fish if truly "endangered" should be allowed to grow and repopulate and returned to the area.

These fish are endangered by the pumps and by low water flow, the two being part of the one business of pumping water for irrigation mostly, plus swimming pools, gardens and whatever else. The fish are not endangered if an environment is maintained that enables the smelt to avoid the pumps. I am presuming that measures are already in place to minimise this but levels get too low. There is no issue of preserving the fish and returning them to the area if the area cannot sustain them. We do that here to maintain trout for the tourist industry in rivers where the native ecology is not up to sustaining trout for tourists. That is no way to maintain a whole ecology.

Quote:

I would also ask what good does it do if the smelt get dumped with the water into the Ocean? Feed the bigger fish? That does little to save an "endangered species".

Maintaining the ecology is the issue. In this case human demands may have made a local species a keystone species. Often the top predator turns out to be the keystone species. We remove it for our own purposes and a whole ecology collapses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_species

There are three other issues I wish to mention:

Irrigation systems lead to salination of the land, worse if sufficient leaching water is not available. This has resulted in the desertification of Iraq for instance and is contributing to the desertification of Australia's food bowl, the Murray Darling Basin. This one was already rather salty and the replacement of the adapted local vegetation with European vegetation did not help. Some effort has been under way to reverse this ecological nightmare but growing drought and the taking of the water by the big cities which are also recycling water, exacerbate the problem. There are plenty of other examples round the world. Wikipedia provides a good overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_salinity

Removal of water leads to the sinking of estuarine land and associated marshes. Not far from where I live is a farming area beside the Waikato river, once called the great swamp. A house built about a century back on a hump about a metre above the swamp is, I've been told, now 9 metres above the surrounding farmland. The streams, canals and drains, once partly tidal, are dammed or gated against the tides and more particularly to keep out our largest river when it rises. I wonder what rising sea levels over the century will do, combined with floods? Some of the gates are opened each year at the right time to permit fish to move upstream to spawn.
A story just published on the BBC depicts the issue with respect to some big rivers and their deltas: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8266500.stm

Some people say that right human relations, whatever they are, are the big issue before mankind, within ourselves, between ourselves, and with the other lives with which we live, planet earth. Each individual and group, many of our professions and all governments are directly concerned whether they know it or not. The ecologists and environmentalists are trying to figure out right human relations with the biosphere for one, an effort that should be respected.

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 22-Sep-2009 at 03:02 AM.

Glaciers from space
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/09/gallery_glaciers/

Chill out
Noel

Airlines agree to cut emissions by 50% by 2050

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/sep/21/airlines-carbon-emissions-cut

Quote:

The pledges drawn up by members of the global airline body, the International Air Transport Association, are: To reduce net carbon dioxide emissions by 50% by 2050, compared with 2005 levels. To make all industry growth carbon-neutral by 2020. To cut carbon dioxide emissions by 1.5% per year over the next decade. To submit plans for joining a global carbon trading scheme to the UN by November 2010.

They are trying to avoid being ambushed at Copenhagen

Noel

@NoelFuller

Thanks for the glaciers from space. Nice images.

Airlines is a 'net carbon'. Meaning total produced. Passengers and emissions are expected to double by 2030 so this will indeed be a challenging goal.

Definitely some of this is going to come through newer technology. Pratt and Whitney have been touting their newer jet engine which uses 15% less fuel than current designs and is easier on CO2. I believe Boeing has contracted their purchase for newer planes. Boeing has also been playing with the use of hydrogen. Airbus is working on cleaner jet fuel.

One gain is supposed to come from more efficent flights. The current system in the US is based on pre-WWII designs. Newer designs use satellites and can route flights more effectively. 1 minute less flight per plane per year is a reduction of 6 million tons of CO2.

So there are definitely things on the horizon for planes. Less time in the air means less fuel used. More efficent engines agains means less fuel used. The results are cost savings and CO2 savings. A win-win.

@BrianK

Quote:

Food is a commodity to the consumer. Just like everything else for the past 30 years the USA has exported the manufacturing of goods. If we can buy food at cheaper prices from over seas then guess what, we buy cheaper food from over seas.

Remember all the “tainted” products coming from China? At least much of the USA’s water for farms is decent. Do you feel comfortable with fresh fruits and vegetables from other countries? This is the start of major new health problems for us IMHO.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@NoelFuller

Quote:

These fish are endangered by the pumps and by low water flow, the two being part of the one business of pumping water for irrigation mostly, plus swimming pools, gardens and whatever else.

I understand your thinking but believe all efforts to "Maintaining the ecology" should be balanced. Tip the scales in one direction or the other is wrong.

In the USA the "endangered species act" is mostly used by lawyers with thier own ax to grind. The true meaning has been lost along the way.

Quote:

Irrigation systems lead to salination of the land,

Most of the water systems within the US are in danger because of the over use of salts. Salt is used in the winters to deal with snow on the roads. It's used in systems to deal with hard water etc.

We agree to disagree with one point. The water should not have been turned off to the farmers, and now get dumped into the ocean. It was not balanced IMHO.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

Quote:

Remember all the “tainted” products coming from China? At least much of the USA’s water for farms is decent. Do you feel comfortable with fresh fruits and vegetables from other countries? This is the start of major new health problems for us IMHO.

Personally I have issues with us not growing enough food for our own citizens. We should be self sustaining. But, again this has very little to do with environmental or global warming factors.

Tainted products have been happening from not only China but other countries as well. If our model is going to be food from other nations the FDA must be strengthened to protect the public not weakened per the last administration. This even shows as internally produced food saw tainting, such as the deaths from California grown E-Coli Lettuce.

@BrianK

Quote:

Tainted products have been happening from not only China but other countries as well. If our model is going to be food from other nations the FDA must be strengthened to protect the public not weakened per the last administration. This even shows as internally produced food saw tainting, such as the deaths from California grown E-Coli Lettuce.

we agree 100% with each other

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

@Dandy

Quote:

Yeah - and building new NPSs won't exclude such problems.

Time for talk is over dandy.....time to practice what you preach.

New Russian nuke plant worries neighbors

Russia's plans to build a nuclear power plant in its Baltic territory of Kaliningrad, hemmed in between Poland and Lithuania, has local residents and environmentalists worried.

New Russian Nuke

The plant is similar in design to an upgraded facility west of Saint Petersburg in Russia, according to Rosatom spokesman Igor Konyshev.

Russian state energy corporation Rosatom announced plans last year to build a 1,200-megawatt nuclear plant near Sovetsk by 2016. The site is just 20 kilometres (12 miles) from Lithuania's border.

Last edited by Interesting on 23-Sep-2009 at 03:00 AM.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

Quote:

Most of the water systems within the US are in danger because of the over use of salts. Salt is used in the winters to deal with snow on the roads. It's used in systems to deal with hard water etc.

On all continents and on coral atolls water quality and supply is poor or endangered, and subject to dispute, but applying salt too. I live in a benign place indeed. Thanks for that info.

Quote:

We agree to disagree with one point. The water should not have been turned off to the farmers, and now get dumped into the ocean. It was not balanced IMHO.

But the water is not turned off, it is being managed and conservation of water by users is the other part of this story. I've been reading up on the history of water in southern California, where global warming is also biting a little more than in some places. I'm interested that Los Angeles, after a long history of raiding everywhere for water to the collapse of ecologies and loss of productive land and lakes at source, when forced to employ conservation measures found they worked. Required reading on this issue is this history (delivered 1998)
http://www.monolake.org/mlc/outsidebox

It hits all the issues.

Noel

@BrianK

Quote:

So there are definitely things on the horizon for planes. Less time in the air means less fuel used. More efficent engines agains means less fuel used. The results are cost savings and CO2 savings. A win-win.

This is encouraging news. I was somewhat doubtful they could live up to their pledges, expecting some hand wringing further down the line though it is obvious they expect to buy carbon credits and develop biofuel further to claim carbon neutral. As you believe it is a big ask. What they do not discuss is the greater effect of their emissions because of altitude - what can be done must be done so it is nice to hear they are taking positive steps.

Noel

Red Dust over Sydney - lots of pictures

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/sydney-turns-red-dust-storm-blankets-city-20090923-g0so.html

Drought plus very strong wind has done this. We may get it in Auckland over the next few days but as there is a washing machine in the Tasman at present it might rain out before it gets to us. We usually get the smoke from their forest fires.

Noel

@Interesting

Quote:

Interesting wrote: @Dandy Quote: Yeah - and building new NPSs won't exclude such problems. Time for talk is over dandy.....time to practice what you preach.

And what do you want me to do?
Go to the Russians and tell them: "You must not build NPSs (nuclear power stations)!"?
I don't think that this is an option, as they would not listen to me.
So all I can do is hope that neither the technology fails, nor the operating crew makes any fatal mistakes...

Quote:

Interesting wrote: New Russian nuke plant worries neighbors Russia's plans to build a nuclear power plant in its Baltic territory of Kaliningrad, hemmed in between Poland and Lithuania, has local residents and environmentalists worried. New Russian Nuke The plant is similar in design to an upgraded facility west of Saint Petersburg in Russia, according to Rosatom spokesman Igor Konyshev. Russian state energy corporation Rosatom announced plans last year to build a 1,200-megawatt nuclear plant near Sovetsk by 2016. The site is just 20 kilometres (12 miles) from Lithuania's border.

Sad. but true...

Quote:

Interesting wrote:

Not sure what youre trying to say with that...

_________________
Ciao

Dandy
__________________________________________
If someone enjoys marching to military music, then I already despise him.
He got his brain accidently - the bone marrow in his back would have been sufficient for him!
(Albert Einstein)

Sailing the North West passage - Mission Accomplished
Sep 20
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/TECH/science/09/20/northwestpassage.arctic/index.html

Has anyone been following this? I saw from satelite pics the southern version of this passage was open while the two freighters that have negotiated the North East passage have been getting lots of story time.

BBC Sept 11: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8251914.stm?lsf
Britannica History, not updated:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/33100/Arctic/57896/Conquest-of-the-Northeast-Passage

Noel

@NoelFuller

Quote:

Red Dust over Sydney - lots of pictures

made the top news item for the morning news read.

Quote:

The storms — visible as a huge brown smudge in satellite photographs of Australia on Wednesday — are the most severe since the 1940s, experts said. One was recorded traveling from southern Australia all the way to New Zealand some 1,400 miles (2,220 kilometers) away.

I agree 100% with this as the Western US is seems to be in a 1940's weather pattern.

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Dandy

Quote:

And what do you want me to do? Go to the Russians and tell them: "You must not build NPSs (nuclear power stations)!"? I don't think that this is an option, as they would not listen to me.

Don’t be precocious.

Quote:

So all I can do is hope that neither the technology fails, nor the operating crew makes any fatal mistakes...

Sitting on your hands and complaining in the future won’t cut it. One person can make a difference. I suggest you reread all the Chernobyl posts here for inspiration. This will help you:

"What do you think? This is your backyard and Germany has many dealings with Russia. Pressure should be applied to your political leaders. Member countries in the EU should make sure the standard “containment domes” are used within EU members, or shut down. Do you agree?"

_________________
"The system no longer works " -- Young Anakin Skywalker

@Interesting

Quote:

One was recorded traveling from southern Australia all the way to New Zealand some 1,400 miles (2,220 kilometers) away.

Poisonous insects blow across the Tasman from time to time :)

Noel

Mars climate cycles observed in Mars ice cap

http://spacefellowship.com/2009/09/23/radar-map-of-buried-mars-layers-matches-climate-cycles

The ruling cycles relate to changes in the tilt of the axis of Mars

Noel

Last edited by NoelFuller on 23-Sep-2009 at 11:15 PM.

Dynamic Thinning worse than thought.