@Pleng

Quote:

Pleng wrote: @Wildstar128 Quote: Just aggravated about going over in circles and the topic being about Amiga Inc. and not AA API. But, unlike most of your ramblings, the Amiga Inc discussions bring up valid points. You can't separate AA and Amiga Inc If you need support there appears to be no community to provide it so you are going to be relying on Amiga Inc. You say AA is production ready, and linnar says AA is still beta. So, who is to be believed? If AA is, indeed, beta then you rely on the parent company to bring it OUT of beta stage and into a fully fledged product. So you're relying on Amiga Inc for support and continued development. Therefore Amiga Incs history and reputation has every much importance in discussion of the language, as the features of the language and what it can produce. Because of this, Amiga Inc is a big factor in the 'why bother using AA?' side of the debate. We would be only happy to discuss the merits of the features of the language itself and have repeatedly asked for: Features of the language that are not available in other, free and open, solutions. Examples of software that has been created with AA. Examples of AA source code. Rather than provide these, all we get are lists of excuses and totally irrelevant waffle.

Why can't AA and Amiga Inc. be separated? You don't need to talk about Amiga Inc. and their business politics when talking about AA and the API and how to program for it and what the API provides and how to program for it.

Yes it is still beta but even then, the applications written can still be made from the beta. When Amiga Inc. introduces additional library functions then I implement them in a future project. SDL is evolving and so would AA. Amiga Inc. is to a point irrelevent, You program for the SDK with what it has now. When something new comes out for it then I upgrade.

I didn't say it is so called "production" ready or any of those terms. It is beta. But even a beta can be used to write content, now. You don't have to sit on your thumb up your bunghole. You don't wait until SDL is 100% complete. SDL and every API is in some way perpetually in beta. Even Windows is constantly and technically in beta all the time even when they don't refer to it because there is constant updates and changes and they keep evolving and new versions. It is in a closed released and that means SDA signees and you get access to it by becoming an SDA signee. Sign the SDA and you have it.

Some products by virtue of nature is always going to be added upon and updated. APIs are that way. I've talked to the fellow who Amiga Inc. contracted for working with them in development in project development... they do intend and plan to release updates to SDK for more target platforms and discussed bringing the SDK kit to multiple Desktop OSs to run on. He seems favorable on the idea and concept but he couldn't say as to when they'll bring the next update on the AA2 SDK. There has been delays for a variety of reasons but they are and do intend to keep moving forward with it.

I mentioned about the idea of having the SDK kit being available for Windows (currently), Linux, MacOS and AmigaOS. Yet be able to target compile to the various CPU platforms with any of these OSs and cpu platforms and without any underlying "OS" as well as some other cpu / os architecture in which the SDK kit might not be on. Making the SDK a cross-platform tool in a unified package. I can make work around solutions by taking the libraries and my source over to whatever cross-compiler that I so choose to use.

The kit only needs to be on a few good desktop OSs but the apps can be targetted to many more platforms.

I got a nice inside contact to talk to.

That aside, now to some of your points:

You got some good points but does it explain or really matter if you know how to program in C/C++ and use the AA API and write content and sell it yourself or put it up for download? There are certainly to much sense, plans to bring the SDK to more than one desktop OS platform and certainly more target CPUs (native binary formats). We can still use it right now with some little bit more meandering approach to cross-platform compiling of an app using the AA API. C/C++ is still the actual programming language.

So the language is C/C++ and it is well within reason with common steps and processes to use Java and C/C++ in one game. The AA API is mainly C/C++ classes in header files.

http://wildstar.emenace.com/AmigaAnywhere%20API%20library%20includes.JPG

If you take these over to your chosen cross-compiler and utilize your chosen cross-compiler, then all the better. It can be a C/C++ to Java Bytecode compiler and voila it runs on a JIT... in theory. ( Someone has to actually test it out to prove it but I read or heard something about C/C++ to Java bytecode compiling so that could work. It be an alternative to the AA fatso fat binary format and be alot like P-Code. (Not Microsoft P-code). C/C++ to P-Code is another approach.

Then you just need an interpreter/ ( pseudo-machine code such as Java byte code, P-code, ect. to true machine code ) compiler on each platform. That was what the intent player was. Since the real hw will only truly understand one language - its machine langauge. BASIC on C64 is exactly what intent player was in any sense. intent player just processes the VP code to ML. When you compile BASIC to P-code on C64, it integrate the P-Code interpreter "player" to the P-code program and when the program is loaded via the Kernal loader routines, the P-code player "interpreter" is execute and running the subsequent program. We don't have to be quite that way where the player is integrated into the program file but can be helpful sometimes if you want a one-filer EXEcutable.

Examples of software using AA.... well, there is the ones for download from Amiga Inc. website. Outside of that, the original game producer's website. I am not in my personal knowledge aware of too many places for downloading AA games outside of Amiga Inc. website. I also don't personally know all the software titles. We know that most of the games on the Amiga Inc. website sucks and sucks for any API. So new stuff has to be made.

Example of source codes for games using AA as an API... I can't honestly answer that because I haven't looked everywhere. Most of those titles produced where produced for sales and are closed source. Not too many that I know of have deliberately put their titles as PD with source code available. I could be wrong but some of these folks might have the source codes available somewhere and I just haven't plugged into Google the right keywords. This is a honest answer Pleng. There are still unknowns by me, personally but I'm separating my not knowing something from AA's technical features and capabilties.

One of the AA developers:
http://www.elysianlabs.com/

If you look around at each AA developer selling stuff through Amiga Inc. website.

Could one of them be releasing their source code... I don't know.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

One of the AA developers: http://www.elysianlabs.com/

Did you even bother to look at the 'products' page before posting that link?

As for your previous post, you've said nothing new. You've not answered any of the queries. You've again referenced a load of AA1 apps which are irrelevant and you've again not pointed out a single benefit of using AA.

Your posts on this forum are as irrelevant and make as little sense as they did on gp32x.

If you seriously can't understand what I and fastlane are saying about community and corporate technical support then there's really no point in discussing this any further.

Quote:

One of the AA developers: http://www.elysianlabs.com/

Seriously, is this a joke ?

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@Pleng

Quote:

Pleng wrote: @Wildstar128 Quote: One of the AA developers: http://www.elysianlabs.com/ Did you even bother to look at the 'products' page before posting that link? As for your previous post, you've said nothing new. You've not answered any of the queries. You've again referenced a load of AA1 apps which are irrelevant and you've again not pointed out a single benefit of using AA. Your posts on this forum are as irrelevant and make as little sense as they did on gp32x. If you seriously can't understand what I and fastlane are saying about community and corporate technical support then there's really no point in discussing this any further.

I just pointed out that is one of the developers and not all.

Just wait for your Pong

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 11-Jul-2009 at 11:51 AM.

@Leo

Quote:

Leo wrote: Quote: One of the AA developers: http://www.elysianlabs.com/ Seriously, is this a joke ?

There is Vulcan Software (didn't have the URL on hand) but they produced some AA games (whether it is AA1 or AA2, so be it).

There is also Cinemaware.

These are based on the developers who made some of the titles on Amiga Inc. website.

@Wildstar128

Games from Vulcan and Cinemaware aren´t based on AA technology.
(= old games + UAE)

@Wildstar128:
>Community is something that needs more work but that can be resolved with a real forum. We j>ust have to be willing to DO and not sit and wait around for Amiga Inc.

Sorry, but you sound like BillMcEwens PR-guy. Nobody was able to show us the benefits of AA2 in comparison to already existing solutions (most of them are free and can compile for many devices now).

Even worser: You have to do a contract with AmigaInc. to sell your stuff. So why should we (the so called "community") do this, if we are not AmigaINc.-fanboys?

I already use Hollywood4, a brilliant product. I can compile my apps/games for AmigaOS3.X, AmigaOS4.X, MOS, AROS, Linux (GP2x for example), Windows and MacOSX (PPC and Intel). Even better: I can use my Amiga or SAM/AOne with AmigaOS4.1 to create Apps for mainstream-OSes like Windows and MacOSX, so no need to use a Windows-box for developing apps.

_________________
AmigaOne X5000/40, 2.2 Ghz, 4 GB RAM, Radeon R9 280X, M-Audio Revolution 5.1, 240 GB SSD

@Wildfire:

Some years ago I was part of e development team, developing a medical appluicatione for an ARM powered device under Linux, we used x86 Linux PCs to develop the applications running under SDL, we could simulate the functionality on a common x86 PCs and cross compile the whole system for ARM Linux, we had excellent conditions by using SDL as API for GFX and sound.

So what coul be the benefit if using AA2 compoared to SDL ?


And before you answere, SDL is available for nearly evry modern platform including AmigaNG systems and it is free.

So waht does make AA2 better than SDL ?

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@linnar Quote:

I can not find anymore the link where to download Aa2

I find this a rather worrying sign.

(And maybe I can find the time to read the next 6 pages of this thread, to see if anyone else commented on this...)

_________________
Author of the PortablE programming language.
It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue...

@ChrisH

AA2 SDK can be downloaded from A.Inc. You fill in formular on their website. They send you SDA, then you sign SDA and send it through fax/mail to them and they will give you access to the SDK.

I must admit that this isn´t right way to gain a lot of developers.

@All

when I look how AA2 has developed since it was published, I got the impression of a dead system. Amiga Inc's website shows no new AA2 applications or games, it still only supports Windows related systems and I see no reason why I should use it instead of other existing APIs.

Maybe AA2 was just a test balloon, something that will get real support, if it generates at least some small interests, maybe it the lack of further development is caused by Pentti Kouri's death.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@ChrisH

It's there but he's not looking at the right spot.

Linnar - Look in the Developer's Exchange (sometimes you need to log in twice - same Amipass login. Look at message about Amiga Anywhere 2 SDK closed release. It is one of the attachments.

@ AP

Sorry if I sound like it. People want real sw examples not words and for me to show you sw with AA2, I'm going to have to make some programs and not just a pong game. That will take time. Since some games takes 9-12 months of development time to produce, for a team of 5-10 folks and some can take that long for a crew of over 100 and the game is alot more than just the coding.

If Hollywood4 is a C/C++ compiler then you probably could use it if you have the AA2 libraries brought over so you then just take care of getting your code compiled to a native binary or to a virtual processor's peudo-"machine language" or to some form of a fat binary format. That is exactly what I am talking about by using other tools then just the stock AA2 SDK kit. AA2 itself is just the libraries that are 'include'-ed into the C/C++ source code of your program.

The trick is making a kit for each desktop development platform with tools already available for that platform and be able to target out to other cpus and OSs. The SDK would include a C/C++ compiler to compile your program, some documentation, some example source code programs, and the AA2 library classes. (those .h header files).

So, with any of those tools it is potentially possible (because I don't have that tool to make a proof of example) to make a compile and work around the drawbacks of the AA2 SDK's cross-compiling ability. It isn't like I can't work around its drawback.

I would need each of these actual end-target devices or an emulator of such to be sure there isn't any bugs.

You are asking me to show you a bunch of examples of AA programs besides the ones on Amiga Inc. website. It will take time. I can NOT answer it by pointing you to a link because I don't have A) the source code for other's programs and 2) I don't know who all the other AA developers and C) I don't have all their URL. Without that at the moment, I have only myself and what is on Amiga Inc. website.

This topic is about Amiga Anywhere and not just AA2 but also AA1. There is more examples of AA1 stuff, though.

Why all this 'fanboy' crap? You sign an SDA to get access to the SDA and yes it would authorize then to be a distributor but you still decide what software (if any) that you want Amiga Inc. to distribute but you sure don't have to use them and only them. The point is, you ONLY have to send a portion of the net proceeds for each product (game/app) sold by and through Amiga Inc. If you choose to sell the games/apps yourself or through another distribution avenue then you don't have to loose any of your proceeds but the SDA is primarily so you can get the SDK free and use of the AA library classes into your apps/games.

If your are not an Amiga Inc. fanboy then you probably wouldn't sell your apps/games. Also, you don't have to be an Amiga Inc. fan boy to use AmigaAnywhere. Statements implying that you have to be an Amiga Inc. fan boy is just stupid. If you sign an SDA, it doesn't mean you are a fanboy. If you aren't anti-Amiga Inc. nor an Amiga Inc. fanboy, you can sign the SDA to try out the AA SDK and see for yourself and play with it and even make a game or app with it and not have to loose a penny of proceeds to Amiga Inc.

So what is there to really complain about.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 11-Jul-2009 at 09:09 PM.
Last edited by Wildstar128 on 11-Jul-2009 at 07:49 PM.
Last edited by Wildstar128 on 11-Jul-2009 at 07:49 PM.

Quote:

pavlor wrote: @ChrisH AA2 SDK can be downloaded from A.Inc. You fill in formular on their website. They send you SDA, then you sign SDA and send it through fax/mail to them and they will give you access to the SDK. I must admit that this isn´t right way to gain a lot of developers.

You can scan the signed document and email it. IIRC: I did that.

I first got the AA1 (version 1.52 SDK) which is downloadable in the My Cart area. You might get the 2.00 directly there. But you can get the 2.00 in the developer exhange under the topic regarding Closed Release of AmigaAnywhere 2.

I wrote:
If Hollywood4 is a C/C++ compiler then you probably.....

Ok, it's something a little different and also a little different then AA but can go hand in hand with AA quite nicely from what I can see.

Mixing APIs and doing it cleanly can produced interesting games. Using systems like OpenGL and/or Hollywood 4 to augment AA in the development of powerful games. You use and combine APIs to make the content. The content of the games/apps/ect. is more important then what API or combination of API. A good programmer can use any API and make a good game.

@Arko

Quote:

You wrote: Maybe AA2 was just a test balloon, something that will get real support, if it generates at least some small interests, maybe it the lack of further development is caused by Pentti Kouri's death.

Death of someone who is a major party could be part of days but not solely. It may have impacted the developers who are involved in the development of the SDK on the emotional side of things. Understandable.

It would be speculation at this time.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @Arko Quote: You wrote: Maybe AA2 was just a test balloon, something that will get real support, if it generates at least some small interests, maybe it the lack of further development is caused by Pentti Kouri's death. Death of someone who is a major party could be part of days but not solely. It may have impacted the developers who are involved in the development of the SDK on the emotional side of things. Understandable.

Yea it would hit them deeply in a very emotional way "Amiga Inc. is like the Titanic and no one is left to pay us" I bet this emotions made mast developers to leave Amiga Inc.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: If Hollywood4 is a C/C++ compiler then you probably could use it if you have the AA2 libraries brought over so you then just take care of getting your code compiled to a native binary or to a virtual processor's peudo-"machine language" or to some form of a fat binary format. That is exactly what I am talking about by using other tools then just the stock AA2 SDK kit. AA2 itself is just the libraries that are 'include'-ed into the C/C++ source code of your program.

Even reading hurts, Holliwood is available for more platforms than AA2, and it would be totally useless to work with AA2 if you allready have a good API. Working with AA2 seems to be a downgrade.

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: The trick is making a kit for each desktop development platform with tools already available for that platform and be able to target out to other cpus and OSs. The SDK would include a C/C++ compiler to compile your program, some documentation, some example source code programs, and the AA2 library classes. (those .h header files).

The trick ? There is now Trick ! AA2 exist for only two Platforms that already shares a lot of APIs without using AA2.

Read it again:
There is no AA2 for Linux, AROS, MorphOS AmigaOS4, AmigaOS3, Symbian, MacOSX or iPhone. There is nothing in AA2 that would make it more useful than SDL, a cheaper and better system that is available on more platform than AA2 was announced for.

Last edited by Arko on 12-Jul-2009 at 12:30 AM.

_________________
AmigaONE. Haha. Just because you can put label on it does not make it Amiga.

I borrowed this comments from here (#27 & #28):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=38873&forum=2&start=20&order=0

@Arko

Read again -

AA SDK is *currently* only available for Windows and the stock compiler only compiles to x86 or ARM.

Use another compiler that compiles to the target cpus of your choice and have the AA2 library copied over so that the other compiler can use it. Then you dealt with the target cpu issue.

Therefore, Linux, AROS, MorphOS, AmigaOS4, AmigaOS3, Symbian, MacOSX and iPhone.

As for cheaper - what is cheaper then $0? Are the SDL team paying everyone who develops with SDL to use SDL?

Seriously, the SDK is a kit but the libraries themselves already have Windows, Linux and AmigaOS planned support. AA2 is the libraries not the little MinGW compiler that is packaged.

All I need is a Windows cross-compiler for those target platforms above.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 12-Jul-2009 at 01:04 AM.