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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
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Thom_Holwerda 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 14:26:28
#61 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Dec-2005
Posts: 98
From: Warmenhuizen

@ChrisH

I HAVE checked your sources. I do not just fling something on the front page of OSNews based on some random forum dude's post. The article carries the proper "this is not final, may change, etc." disclaimer, too.

Look, this is all information freely available in other places. You did a very nice job of consolidating all this into one item. I run a site called Operating System News, which has followed the Amiga scene for years and years now. It is my job to inform my readers about the future plans of the AmigaOS. There was nothing indicating you did not want this news spread beyond AmigaWorld.net. And since this is the internet, if you amend your post, so will I (which I did 5 minutes after you emailed me).

There's an interest in the Amiga on sites like OSNews. As such, I WILL post items about it - whether Hyperion, you, or anyone else likes it or not. I'm sorry if this sounds harsh, but it's just the way it is. None of this information is under an NDA or whatever, none of it was secretly stolen from Hyperion's super secret hideout, or whatever. This is freely available information, and I will treat it as such.

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drHirudo 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 14:40:28
#62 ]
Super Member
Joined: 26-Apr-2004
Posts: 1104
From: Sofia

@NovaCoder

Quote:
Also, why would the next update not be called 4.2...seems strange to call it 4.1.1


Yeah, this also seem strange to me and may be a nutpicking, but was the number.number.number a Linux standard of versioning, which the AmigaOS never used? It shall be version 4.11 or something (like 2.04, 2.1, but it was never 2.0.4).

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Antique 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 14:45:09
#63 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2005
Posts: 887
From: Norway

@drHirudo

Don't think it's 4.1.1.. It's 4.1 update 1. AmigaOs uses 4.1 4.2 .... 4.11....4.99..5.0 etc

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DAX 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 15:10:26
#64 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@Thom_Holwerda
I believe everyone agrees that having some exposition is good

I also agree that if Hyperion does not want people to know about version 4.1.1 then they should not allow people at different shows (Pianeta Amiga/Amiwest) to slip information and show the OS.

Last edited by DAX on 24-Oct-2009 at 03:14 PM.

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minator 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 15:13:25
#65 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@vox

Quote:
Indeed. Any board with these CPU's would be suitable.
Stop complaining about the ARM CPU's, I am sure that they
can`t reach that easily these hights:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titan_(microprocessor)

ARM has already announced a processor that will most likely match or beat Titan.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_microprocessor
Only accessible consumer versions are in the (pre-slim) PS3, otherwise you pay a lot more.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PWRficient
No longer available, unless you are the US military.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenon_CPU
This is a custom, Microsoft only chip.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_G5
Hard to get hold of unless you happen to be buying a Mac.
I expect the high clocked ARM Cortex-A9s will be into G5 territory.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/POWER5
So you're rich then...


There's no problem getting PPC CPUs, there's a whole bunch from AMCC, Freescale and IBM you haven't even mentioned here. The problem is building machines in sufficient volumes to get prices down to sensible levels.

Last edited by minator on 24-Oct-2009 at 03:14 PM.

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DAX 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 15:20:53
#66 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@minator
Quote:
ARM has already announced a processor that will most likely match or beat Titan.

First I strongly doubt it, it 's not a question of Ghz Titans have innovative technologies such as level 0 cache and the ability to do in 8 stages what other power PPC do in 14.

Even if they have "announced" something, sometimes it take years from announcements to delivery, Titans are shipping now (after a big delay).

Moreover (very important piece this one) we already have a PPC OS and we DON'T have an ARM OS. Put the piece of the puzzle together and you will see on one side a ready OS with shipping HW, and on the other pure vaporware...

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ChrisH 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 16:04:24
#67 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@Thom_Holwerda Quote:
There was nothing indicating you did not want this news spread beyond AmigaWorld.net.

I would direct that one at Hyperion. That seems to be THEIR complaint (or at least Rigo's). I agree with you that the info was public, and not under an NDA.

However, MY complaint was that an informal post I made, which was clearly INTENDED only for AmigaWorld.net readers, was paraphrased into a fully-fledged news item on an non-Amiga site - without even my being asked if I thought it was suitable for that! It even had my name on the news item, which could imply that I had OKed it.

Had I been asked, I would have said "Sure, happy to help, but please wait a day, so I have time to make some improvements & corrections. And I'd prefer if I could read your news item before it is posted, so that I can check whether your misunderstood anything I wrote".

Quote:
I HAVE checked your sources. I do not just fling something on the front page of OSNews based on some random forum dude's post.

Glad to hear it. Although I do wonder how thoroughly you checked the sources. There was a 1.5 hours (edit: originally 45 minutes) of video with bad audio to go through alone, and I went through it twice myself before posting informally...

Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Oct-2009 at 04:41 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Oct-2009 at 04:06 PM.
Last edited by ChrisH on 24-Oct-2009 at 04:05 PM.

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AmigaBlitter 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 16:27:46
#68 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 26-Sep-2005
Posts: 3485
From: Unknown

@Thom_Holwerda

Hi Thom,

nice to see you here.

OSNews is almost my second home.
Your articles are very well written.

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Stephen_Robinson 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 24-Oct-2009 16:42:12
#69 ]
Super Member
Joined: 29-Apr-2005
Posts: 1991
From: UK

@rigo

So will Amiupdate be in the contributions folder of AmigaOS4.1.1 then?

I think it should be. In fact I think it should, or something like it, should be an official part of the OS.

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DAX 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 14:59:07
#70 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@ChrisH
Thanks for adding the Radeon HD driver developments in the "related" section.

@Thread
As mentioned at Amiwest, we will eventually get a new graphics subsystem (a full port of MESA most probably) and for how much we all like Pixel and Vertex Shaders, we won't get anything without drivers for newer GFX cards (no matter if we talk SAM or Future Amigas).

I first noticed Hans/HDRLab developments thanks to the news item on page 6 of Amiga Future's current issue (#80) and I urge everyone that is not "in the known" of such developments to have a look at the links ChrisH posted (or better let me put them here for your convenience):

http://hdrlab.org.nz/radeonhd-driver/ (Overview of the project)

http://hdrlab.org.nz/radeonhd-development-log/ (Development Log)

I donated to this project a few weeks ago, please consider support

Last edited by DAX on 25-Oct-2009 at 03:01 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 16:50:46
#71 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@DAX Quote:
a full port of MESA most probably

I would just like to point-out that this is pure speculation, since they have not given any such details. Although I do hope you are right, since it has been on their "to-do list" for some years!

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NoName 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 17:30:18
#72 ]
Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2009
Posts: 26
From: Unknown

There are three modes of communication within organizations.

Official information:
Made by authoritative sources for organizational consumption.

Grapevine:
Information passed on by informed and senior members to gauge interest and support for an idea.

Rumor mill:
Totally unsupported information counter to the goals and viability of an organization.


Wherever there is a lack of information regarding subjects of key concern to an organization the rumor mill will come into action, invariably damaging the the organization.


Apply these concepts to Hyperion and Amiga OS and you will see parallels. Unfortunately Hyperion is not doing enough to dispel the rumor mill. The rumor mill has been killing the Amiga brand for decades now. There is only one way to quell the rumor mill: Timely and useful information. Clear direction. In a word: transparency.

Does Hyperion even have communications or marketing staff?

Last edited by Jason on 25-Oct-2009 at 08:11 PM.
Last edited by Jason on 25-Oct-2009 at 05:38 PM.
Last edited by Jason on 25-Oct-2009 at 05:37 PM.
Last edited by Jason on 25-Oct-2009 at 05:35 PM.
Last edited by Jason on 25-Oct-2009 at 05:35 PM.
Last edited by Jason on 25-Oct-2009 at 05:32 PM.

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RedMelons 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 17:47:38
#73 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1062
From: Merrie Olde England

@Jason

Quote:
Does Hyperion even have communications or marketing staff?


I really hope they don't - small and medium sized companies who actually produce anything useful just can't afford the cost of carrying these parasitical hangers-on. I'd rather hear it 'like it is' from an engineer than 'marketing blether' from a snake oil salesman.

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DAX 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 18:33:44
#74 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@ChrisH
Yes, the MESA part is my own educated guess, but that wasn't actually the point, which is, no matter what kind of graphics subsystem we get, having the possibility to use a latest generation GFX card will make all the difference in the world!

By the way, I mentioned MESA because there was a topic a while back about current status of OS4 OpenGL and Hans replied that Hyperion (or was is just Rogue? I can't remember) has mentioned its intention to port it a long ago. Since at Amiwest they talked about a new graphics subsystem one must wonder: is it that they are on the right track with Mesa or is it something else?

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minator 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 19:27:31
#75 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 23-Mar-2004
Posts: 989
From: Cambridge

@DAX

minator: ARM has already announced a processor that will most likely match or beat Titan.

Quote:
First I strongly doubt it, it 's not a question of Ghz


According to the marketing blurb they're both rated at 2MIPS/MHz.
OTOH Cortex-A9 has a vector unit whereas Titan doesn't.

Quote:
Titans have innovative technologies such as level 0 cache


or put another way, they have slow (5 cycle) L1s.

Quote:
ability to do in 8 stages what other power PPC do in 14.


That's the use of Intrinsity's dynamic logic tech, they're not the only company using that though, ATI, Intel and IBM (Cell, POWER6) use the same techniques, as do some of the firms that do ARM chips. I don't believe they applied it to the 2GHz A9 but if they did that could be very interesting indeed.

Quote:
Even if they have "announced" something, sometimes it take years from announcements to delivery, Titans are shipping now (after a big delay).


Titan is *sampling* now, that's not the same as shipping. It's meant to be shipping in Q1.

Quote:
Moreover (very important piece this one) we already have a PPC OS and we DON'T have an ARM OS.


You also don't have an OS that runs on POWER5 or Xbox360 either but that didn't stop you mentioning them.

Quote:
Put the piece of the puzzle together and you will see on one side a ready OS with shipping HW, and on the other pure vaporware...


Don't you mean an OS that could be ported to Titan? You'll need drivers for all the interfaces before you can actually run anything...

You also need chips that are in the right price range, Titan has been designed to be cheap by using an old process (90nm bulk), but is that cheap enough for a Sam board?


Your point was that ARM can't match it and I replied. Don't get me wrong, Titan sounds like an ideal processor for an Amiga.

Titan is actually quite impressive, it'll most likely outgun Atom at the same clock and power level. However Atom requires a 2 generation ahead process to do that.

Last edited by minator on 25-Oct-2009 at 07:28 PM.

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DAX 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 20:31:51
#76 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@minator
Quote:
Titan is *sampling* now, that's not the same as shipping. It's meant to be shipping in Q1.

That's still way better than just announced wouldn't you agree?

Quote:
You also don't have an OS that runs on POWER5 or Xbox360 either but that didn't stop you mentioning them.

It wasn't me mentioning them

Quote:
Don't you mean an OS that could be ported to Titan? You'll need drivers for all the interfaces before you can actually run anything...

It's still a PPC core (we already have a godzillion routines for PPC), the other is ARM completely different (=Harder and longer).

You are right in saying that Titan propose its own challenges, and by the way we basically want like the same thing (new HW that would do our beloved OS good), I just would prefer something that, while exiting, would not put even more hurdles on Hyperion than those they are already facing.

Titans would be the sweet spot between something new and exiting and development costs. If they had to choose just the easiest path, than a 1.2GHZ 460EX would be ideal, but certainly not as satisfactory.

The hardest path (ARM/x86) would be too much to handle for a company that has around 16 people working on the OS (as mentioned at Amiwest).

As I said in other occasions, to do OS migrations of this caliber, you either have the workforce of a NASDAQ company (read: Apple) or thousands of programmers working for free (read:Linux), Hyperion has neither

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ChrisH 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 21:00:52
#77 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@minator & DAX
OFF TOPIC! Please take your "my CPUs bigger than yours" size competition elsewhere - thanks!

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DAX 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 25-Oct-2009 22:08:59
#78 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Sep-2009
Posts: 2790
From: Italy

@ChrisH
Fine with me (I did not introduce the subject anyway...).

To get back on topic I must say that if we combine all the "sure things" (those that we know are coming 100% sure including FireFox, etc. excluding 4.2 tidbits) in your first post, go back in time, say, 2 months, and tell people that the sum of those exiting developments were the MAP, I believe many would have been thrilled.

Now we are at point where we know 100% sure they are not. That alone is nothing short of amazing IMHO.

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Dandy 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 26-Oct-2009 5:50:38
#79 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Mar-2003
Posts: 3049
From: Cologne * Germany

@amije

Quote:

amije wrote:

- Multi-core (SMP) support!

but where is the right hardware to run on?



here

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HKvalhe 
Re: OS4 roadmap (from AmiWest & Pianeta Amiga)
Posted on 26-Oct-2009 9:27:49
#80 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Apr-2009
Posts: 483
From: Norway

@Dandy

Quote:
Multi-core (SMP) support! but where is the right hardware to run on?


That power house might be expensive, but i believe SMP-technology will be tested with such hardware to see how effective it can become in AmigaOS 4.2..

There will be cheaper multi-core hardwares which will make it very attractive to the Amiga home market, just like the time of Amiga 500 and Amiga 1200 made an impact at the home market late 80-ies and the early 90-ies.

Last edited by HKvalhe on 26-Oct-2009 at 09:33 AM.

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