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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 10:45:33
#621 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:


Quote:
Right.... but positive things could possibly happen. CommodoreUSA has a license to use the Amiga "trademark" for the particular application without issue but Amiga Inc. owns the trademarks. It is a licensure deal.


Correct. But then I have to question what might be the resulting changes in everyone's plans based on the sale of the Global IP Rights to the Iconic Amiga Computer Brand
Although the intent is quite clear as to why they are doing this (both in their words the reality of their financial condition):
Quote:
Amiga Inc., who is also actively seeking investment capital to fund the ongoing development of their enabling technologies

I still see the potential resulting sale throwing yet another set of variables into the mix. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate your enthusiasm. I just see another great unknown here.

Quote:
In other words, move forward past the Hyperion-Amiga debacle which had - I would say hampered both for way too long.

It destroyed more opportunities than most people will ever know.

Quote:
Now that chapter is behind us (Amiga Inc, Hyperion and rest of us), it should be now the thought to move on and move forward.

With multiple threats being made in these very forums by Hyperion against C=USA indirectly and against AI directly, and nothing as yet recanted...can one really say the chapter is behind us?

Quote:
I don't expect or necessarily want this to immediately become a Million units a year run-away situation with media attention every which way you turn and allow some growth.

Reasonable thought, but to date it seems they have gone out of their way to institute press releases, which belie your thought that they should be "low key" in approach.

Quote:
( Not to confuse Commodore USA with Commodore Licensing B.V. / Commodore International Corporation [formerly Yeahronimo] ) have some reasonable ways to approach the technology issue by not trying to make or reinvent the wheel on technology hw.

Asiarim/Commodore Licensing B.V./C.I.C./Yeahronimo are the ones not trying to reinvent the wheel. C=USA is just following their game plan atm, imo. If anyone fine tunes that plan, I would expect it to be C=USA. It's clear that they are the ones exploring the possibilities and taking the heat in doing so on this very website. Whether they are looking at alternatives partly on behalf of Asiarim or not, is unstated, but I don't see Asiarim as being in a position to take any risk at this point.

Added upon rereading your post:
If you look at all of this strictly from a business perspective, you can make certain deductions. However, if you ignore the human element, you are only seeing one side of the problem and a very narrow set of solutions. I've written many times about ego (a necessity for those who have survived to this point), but an impediment to co-operation if its negative sides go unaddressed.


I do agree that depending on who buys the Amiga IP which can be interesting game plan. If I had the capital, I would grab the IP and all if I can build into it - COMPLETE indemnification of everything Amiga Inc. has attached to it.

In ANY case, it will just be something to look at and keep our eyes on.

The Amiga.com website would be part of that - I am pretty sure.


Last edited by Wildstar128 on 22-Nov-2010 at 10:57 AM.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 12:00:24
#622 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@Wildstar128 #620

I agree!

What I write about Hyperion aims to highlight their problems with the changing focus of interest.

Commedore and co have a lot of money compared to what is customary in the Amiga team but they have not enough to start with hardware and software of this from the beginning. Then it's smarter to use it as is and do something good and sustainable in time of it.

Last edited by linnar on 22-Nov-2010 at 12:01 PM.

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ChrisH 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 13:38:18
#623 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@linnar Quote:
Hyperion agreement with Amiga Inc. is now a straitjacket.

I don't see how: With the settlement Hyperion can do pretty-much what ever they like with AmigaOS4, including porting to ARM or x86 if they wanted to.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 17:48:00
#624 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@ChrisH

Quote:

ChrisH wrote:
@linnar Quote:
Hyperion agreement with Amiga Inc. is now a straitjacket.

I don't see how: With the settlement Hyperion can do pretty-much what ever they like with AmigaOS4, including porting to ARM or x86 if they wanted to.

I have not seen the agreement but I have allowed me to understand that the agreement only applies to PPC.
If there are other interpretations may be the subject of an interesting Discussion in another thread. I do not want to start another thread in the thread.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 18:09:00
#625 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9253
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:
I have not seen the agreement but I have allowed me to understand that the agreement only applies to PPC.


No. Simply wrong.

Here is September 30 Settlement Agreement.

The most important parts are:
1) Hyperion owns AmigaOS 4 partialy based on AmigaOS 3.1
2) Amiga.Inc owns the "Software" (de facto AmigaOS 3.1, but Amiga.Inc can´t use AmigaOS name)
3) Hyperion can use the "Software" for development of its AmigaOS 4
4) Hyperion has exclusive licence for AmigaOS, Amiga OS, AmigaOne and Amiga One names and non-exclusive licence for boing ball logo

Quote:
If there are other interpretations may be the subject of an interesting Discussion in another thread. I do not want to start another thread in the thread.


It is rather common practice here on Amigaworld...

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 20:37:17
#626 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@pavlor

#625

Thank you for picking out the core content.

I do not have time to read it now but is it really is expressly that it also applies to x86?

In addition to this agreement there is an agreement between Hyperion and Amiga Inc.. If I understand correctly, it is the underpinning of what Hyperion can do and not do.

As long as we do not know all the parts of the agreement between the two I go to the line that it does not apply to x86. I also think that Hyperion action provides little support for this.

I may be wrong!

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 21:03:22
#627 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9253
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:
I may be wrong!


Yes you are.

Quote:
In addition to this agreement there is an agreement between Hyperion and Amiga Inc.


Where? Old November 2001 Agreement is now null and void. Hyperion really can select every CPU architecture they want - even x86.

Reasons not to go to x86 are known - developers and representatives of Hyperion mentioned them even on this site:
1) Port itself will stall current OS development
2) x86 port will be rather useless without 68k and PowerPC compatibility (doable - if you have enough milions EUR for developers and technology...)
3) PowerPC still has some future (Freescale´s P40X0 and P50X0 platforms etc.)

I agree with you that x86 port would be the best solution for current hardware problems (expensive and underpowered hardware), but we aren´t in charge. Hyperion has very limited resources, they can do small miracles (like virtual memory in OS4.1), not wonders of god-like power.

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 21:52:38
#628 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@pavlor

I would say that when it comes to x86, go with AROS. Amiga Inc. owns everything from the Workbench line (original Commodore Amiga operating system line up to 1995). So, if Amiga wants to re-write and translate it into a new Amiga operating system line - then they can proceed with that over time. Perhaps using the AA API platform along with SDL and such.

An alternative might be that they can build their own "desktop" much like Icaros is (I'm talking about the desktop itself not the AROS core). Icaros Desktop is to AROS as KDE is to Linux. So, there is an option there. Making a distro that includes AROS, Icaros and say Amiga's own custom desktop (maybe something innovative in design style).

Why reinvent the wheel... AROS is essentially Workbench re-written from scratch on x86 with some modifications of course. So R&D can be reduced and they can move in the x86 direction, right from the get go.

In any case, it would make a pragmatic choice to not reinvent the wheel if you don't have to.


Last edited by Wildstar128 on 22-Nov-2010 at 09:55 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 22:03:05
#629 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9253
From: Unknown

@Wildstar128

Quote:
Making a distro that includes AROS, Icaros and say Amiga's own custom desktop (maybe something innovative in design style).


Amiga.Inc is probably the only company in the world that can´t use AROS on its computers. According to the September 30 Settlement Agreement A.Inc can´t market software architecture similar to OS4...

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radical 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 22:16:19
#630 ]
Member
Joined: 12-Feb-2010
Posts: 40
From: Unknown

@pavlor
In the end it comes down to money, if there's a willing investor then anything in past "agreements" is negotiable.

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 22-Nov-2010 22:26:32
#631 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Well..... could be.

Then a new OS could also be made but Amiga could support AROS nevertheless in the meantime.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 7:11:11
#632 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

Here is September 30 Settlement Agreement.

I'm at work now (my programming job is a job tonight) so I can not open files of this size.

Is this document the secret documents Amiga Inc. and Hyperion signed outside the trial?

As I understand it is only Hyperion and Amiga Inc. who know what it contains!? Is it released free to the public to read?

I have not been active for one year here so I have not complied with. When I read the latest on this document was not released freely to the public.

Last edited by linnar on 23-Nov-2010 at 07:11 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 7:29:07
#633 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9253
From: Unknown

@linnar

Quote:
Is this document the secret documents Amiga Inc. and Hyperion signed outside the trial?


Secret documents? What secret documents?! Source for your claim?

Quote:
When I read the latest on this document was not released freely to the public.


Again, where you read "latest on this document"?



I think both parties (Amiga.Inc and Hyperion) are bound only by this:

"Judgment is accordingly entered in this matter with the Settlement Agreement among Amiga, Inc., Itec, LLC, Amino Development Corporation and Hyperion being attached to and incorporated into this judgment as Exhibit A. The rights and obligations of Amiga and Hyperion with respect to the matters in dispute in this suit are determined as set forth in that Settlement. All claims, counterclaims, cross claims, and third party claims (including any amendments) are otherwise hereby dismissed with prejudice. This case is dismissed without an award of fees or costs to any party."

STIPULATED JUDGEMENT by RICARDO S. MARTINEZ (UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE)

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 7:30:29
#634 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@All
When it comes to contracts and agreements are not contracts carved into the stone. Everything is negotiable (is often about money).

The 'Wildstar128' writes about AROS operating system for x86 Amiga is interesting.
I want to pull out the idea a bit more. It is possible to make AROS for Amiga official operating system for x86. What is needed is to Amiga Inc signs agreement with AROS in which it is declared as official Amiga operating system and then give all the support AROS.

If it happens it will be interesting to participate in the development of AROS. I think many feel the same.


There is also begun operating in Amiga Inc. "OS5". I wonder how much development has gone with it?
Can interesting elements included in AROS?
Has progress reached so far that it would be worthwhile to continue developing "OS5" ready?

Could it be an Amiga operating system on Linux? Amiga Inc. was in the period. Similarly QNX.


There are many questions to answer!
But one thing is quite clear to me: An Amiga x86 running Windows or Linux (which does not look like Workbench) is no Amiga.


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ChrisH 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 8:57:34
#635 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Jan-2005
Posts: 6673
From: Unknown

@linnar Quote:
But one thing is quite clear to me: An Amiga x86 running Windows or Linux (which does not look like Workbench) is no Amiga.

That I can agree with! Although C=USA may have other ideas...

_________________
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Troels 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 9:04:21
#636 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1994
From: Unknown

@linnar
Quote:
When it comes to contracts and agreements are not contracts carved into the stone. Everything is negotiable (is often about money).

Of course Amiga Inc is free to ask if it is possible to pay Hyperion for allowing them to produce and market an Amiga like operating system again but I suspect it would cost them a lot of money and Amiga Inc seems to have no money at all.

Quote:
The 'Wildstar128' writes about AROS operating system for x86 Amiga is interesting. I want to pull out the idea a bit more. It is possible to make AROS for Amiga official operating system for x86. What is needed is to Amiga Inc signs agreement with AROS in which it is declared as official Amiga operating system and then give all the support AROS.

Amiga is not allowed to market or produce any Amiga like operating system (unless they negotiate like we discussed). Even declaring AROS the official Amiga Inc OS might be called marketing and wouldn't change anything for neither Amiga inc or AROS.

What support should Amiga Inc be able to give AROS, they never published a single interesting line of code for desktop users.

Quote:
If it happens it will be interesting to participate in the development of AROS. I think many feel the same.

I think you can rest assured that if Amiga inc was to make an AROS distribution everybody in the community would stay clear of it and just work on other AROS projects. I don't think many feels like you do.

Quote:
There is also begun operating in Amiga Inc. "OS5". I wonder how much development has gone with it? Can interesting elements included in AROS? Has progress reached so far that it would be worthwhile to continue developing "OS5" ready?

OS5 doesn't exist and unless Amiga Inc proves me wrong I don't believe a single line of code was ever written specifically for any OS5 (by A.inc).

Quote:
There are many questions to answer! But one thing is quite clear to me: An Amiga x86 running Windows or Linux (which does not look like Workbench) is no Amiga.

I agree on both of the above statements.

Have you considered the fact that Hyperion could actually make an AROS version and call it AmigaOS4 (or 5...etc)? Contrary to Amiga Inc who is not allowed to do any Amiga like operating system, no one (perhaps the AROS license?) could actually prevent Hyperion from doing that.

Last edited by Troels on 23-Nov-2010 at 09:05 AM.

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polka. 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 9:58:32
#637 ]
Super Member
Joined: 13-Oct-2005
Posts: 1820
From: Tortuga

@linnar

Quote:
There is also begun operating in Amiga Inc. "OS5". I wonder how much development has gone with it?


None. But it's already better than OS X.

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Wildstar128 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 10:56:03
#638 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2006
Posts: 178
From: Unknown

@Troels

There is NOTHING barring Amiga Inc. from producing an Operating System. They just can't officially market it using the verbage - "Amiga operating system" as that can be construed as confusing with AmigaOS by Hyperion.

Amiga can use verbage like "Amiga Workbench Operating System" or "Amiga Research Operating System" by allowing the AROS team to use the AMIGA trademark. Amiga can build an entirely new operating system and if they want - call it something else.

No Judge can legally stipulate more then what the Judge stipulated. It is SPECIALLY that Amiga can not call their OS - "Amiga OS", "Amiga OS" or "Amiga operating system" or "Amiga Operating System". The key is "OS" or "Operating System" directly following "Amiga" or "AMIGA". ANY word placed inbetween "AMIGA" and "OS" or "Operating System" will legally make it not DIRECTLY but INDIRECTLY following. DIRECTLY means that the word IMMEDIATELY follows not a word or two down. NO U.S. Court judge may stipulate that Amiga can not produce an operating system. The only impediment is the substantially similar - clause issue. However, being the ultimate owner of the base code all the way back to Amiga Workbench 1.0 is different. AmigaOS line is PPC code for the most part but Workbench 1.0 is 68K code and they can go about and rewrite it with to a new platform with substantial improvements that can extend beyond the scope of substantially similar. However, the U.S. Copyright laws doesn't exactly use those words - Substantially Similar. So, it can be as close as MS-DOS is to CP/M. Lets remember, precedence does make some issues for the Judge to have to consider.

Being a prime owner of the original operating system for the Amiga computers, Amiga Inc. technically has fundamental authority to the original code set and can take it whatever way they want and do it entirely on the AA API. So it is conceivable to be done this way. If they go they direction, I would suggest they might want to be innovative with environment.

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 10:58:59
#639 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

When I write about AROS as official Amiga operating system, so I think AROS developed as usual, but that it now can be called anything Amiga name (except that Hyperion has the right to) for example, "Amiga Workbench".

The ownership of rights to AROS should not belong to Amiga Inc. but AROS. AROS has no agreement with Hyperion to develop not one AmigaOS as long as it is called AmigaOS or similar. The only thing that is changed is the name AROS for Amiga Workbench or the like. AROS may be retained as the project name.

I do not think Amiga Inc will be active longer than other IP owners and lessors of rights.


AROS should therefore continue to be an association for the development of AROS (probably can not change that).
Such a development would make me and many others (I already have some names that claim to do the same thing) to join the AROS Association to begin to develop there.

My thought behind this is:

1 - Getting around the law to develop an operating system for x86 Amiga.

2 - Create a central administration that is not locked into a company's (whimsical) ways to go. This administration (available today) to determine how the operating system developed with great sensitivity to what people think.

3 - The development is done on a voluntary basis in the same way as Linux (almost).

4 - Those who got right to the Amiga hardware should also provide AROS with selling computers. They should also actively support the development of AROS.

5 - AROS is not a replacement for AmigaOS, but a complement.
Perhaps in the future we see a cooperative agreement between the two.

By such a design (which is already available) will society get something to rally around and lots of interesting issues to discuss on the various forums. We will also see a sharp increase in number of users of the Amiga in the future. Where is the Commodore a tool for this but not the one who leads the work, it makes AROS Association.





It was commented a little about Amiga OS5 in the thread:
I do not know if there is no such OS but I have seen around 200mb binary files and related header files and some other things that are said to be a part of OS5 code. The code will undoubtedly from Amiga Inc and is professionally made.
Amiga Inc has thus produced code to a large extent. The question is how far they got with "OS5".
LyssnaLäs fonetiskt

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linnar 
Re: Amiga.com down?
Posted on 23-Nov-2010 11:04:59
#640 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Dec-2005
Posts: 923
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

"Judgment is accordingly entered in this matter with the Settlement Agreement among Amiga, Inc., Itec, LLC, Amino Development Corporation and Hyperion being attached to and incorporated into this judgment as Exhibit A. The rights and obligations of Amiga and Hyperion with respect to the matters in dispute in this suit are determined as set forth in that Settlement. All claims, counterclaims, cross claims, and third party claims (including any amendments) are otherwise hereby dismissed with prejudice. This case is dismissed without an award of fees or costs to any party."
STIPULATED JUDGEMENT by RICARDO S. MARTINEZ (UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE)


Jus the "Settlement Agreement" is what I am talking about. Is it public now? It was not before.

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