@Mechanic

You wrote:

No!

You don't get it. Hyperions business is their problem, not ours.

I want X1000. Not because of Hyperions business plans.

I will not buy a cusa product simply because they, or anybody else, sells a lot of product. What
the heck kind of hobby or enthusiasm is based on the number of units sold? That's just silly.
If that is the criteria for your enthusiasm then you should buy nothing but wintels

----------------------------------------------------------------

I do understand. I was referring to a business stand point in mainstream not just in the perspective of hobbyist so that you can see the world is bigger than the hobbyist perspective.

Commodore didn't sell the C64 or the Amiga or any of their computers in the 1980s and early 1990s for "hobbyist" purposes. The nostalgia / hobby is a byproduct of the demise of Commodore Electronics, Ltd. in 1994/1995. Commodore was in the business of selling computers to the masses not the classes. Hobbyists is just one of the classes.

I was using Commodore and Amiga since the 1980s.

Hyperion and et al can surely make limited money on these machines. Surely one can have enthusiam like playing the games and demos. Ok but if you are going to write software, you aren't going to be investing 40 hours a week for months to years on end for nothing.

I did some stuff for C64 stuff. I can't make a living for the C64 or the Amiga. There isn't enough user base. So, what are my choices for the enthusiam of programming and such? You see, I would have to work in other fields in other jobs to make a living. No one hires people with C64 or Amiga programming experience these days. ( Maybe a little of Amiga that would translate like C/C++ programming )

Who would want a C64 programmer? Sure, the hobbyists but who is going to pay my bills when doing these "labors of love". These labors of love will often become second to what pays the bills. This is why software development tends to drag-on for several years which in a commercial environment would have been done in 6-9 months.

Granted, Hyperion's business is their problem but when it is these businesses that are your only vendors for stuff, it would be a problem for you if they go out of business because they can't afford to be in business. I have seen businesses leave the Commodore and Amiga to be able to stay in business. Then what do we get?

Some degree of capitalizing on business viability will be important.

You maybe a hobbyist user, a developer and so on. Many faces, many hats. I have seen that. I think if you are a developer and want something that can help you make money that can help support your hobby support of classic then why not Commodore USA's system. Does this mean that you should stop using or supporting the classic systems... NO.

For pure nostalgic / hobby reasons, I would doubt you would need to buy anything other then what is for what you already have. I would hope to see some C64/Amiga devs support Commodore USA's system as a way to make some revenue which can surely help them support the classics. There is certainly passion for developing.

Ideally, it is just an avenue to explore but not necessarily mean give up on the classic. Could it work?

Maybe, but I don't think Commodore USA has any goals to shut down any of the folks like Hyperion and others. Commodore USA at this time doesn't want to invest any significant R&D for a limited number of folks. If you want some C= branded disks and some x-cables and the like and maybe a nice transfer program and such... maybe something that can be looked into. Some of it maybe there mostly but on a limited level. However, you would obviously not expect millions of dollars of R&D be dropped into something without ever any ROI in a business realm.

Hobbyists can often have a hard time understanding 'business' because they don't care to. This is part of why we lost so many businesses over the years.

Yes, I am emphasizing the business perspective. I am aware of hobbyist thinking to. I collect C= and Amiga. I just can't validate investing from a business perspective for any commercial activity on just a limited group from a software standpoint. Even if I take the minimum wage level of $8.50 an hour and assume the software or game takes me 1000 hours to code and probably a team of 5 individuals (coder, graphics, music, sound effects, ect.) - the invested time would be upwards of 5000 man-hours. Being commercial activity, they would want to be paid. If luck to even get them to work minimum wage level (that would be $42,500 + $5 per disk package spent. Now, if I sell at ordinary price of software at say $20 with about $15 of profit. I would assume that I would have to sell like 3780 but probably closer to 5000 disks to start making a profit and also pay the folks. So from a serious perspective, I would need to look at 10,000+ disks to be sold to be viable. This means, I would have to realistically see 100x as many people. Assuming only 1% would buy the software. So where are the 1 Million users that can be the potential 10,000 customers?

So it all boils down to economic analysis in commerical / professional software development. Otherwise, it is more or less amateur hobby work and not professional - even though the quality could end up being of professional quality outcome.

@pavlor

Pavlor, every PC made since 2001 is as much Amiga if not more an Amiga then Amiga. All of them have some form of blitter technology. All of them can do multiple screen planes. Most of them can do just about every function an Amiga can do. Difference is it isn't a 68K processor or a PPC. Don't you realize there was some sort of intel processor module made for Amiga at one time.

Ok, we know from a technical standpoint, it isn't classic Amiga. Even the PPC Macs are not "real Macs" which has to have a Motorola 68K processor if you take a purist perspective.

The specs of these Amiga lines are subject to change as they have not been put on the assembly line. What you see is an early 3d model of what the units could look like. It maybe revised as he design is worked through. The hardware specs are very preliminary but even then it could be revised.

Some would like AROS... ok. If we can get AROS all the drivers and software necessary to be commercially ready and meet 2011 computing standards and serious apps and games for it (all done in the next 6 to 9 months then perhaps) - Are you guys up for the challenge?

Since it can run on top of Linux, it would already be runnable on Commodore OS from what I can tell.

Using Icaros Desktop, alright. Can it be packaged for free? Well, it would be nice for the AROS team to get paid something. These are part of the considerations and because it is just a bunch of folks and not a central entity, it is hard for there to be formal agreements made and all.

What would you guys consider as Amiga enough?

@AmigaHeretic

Quote:

So let's see these 60,000 items then! WHOOO HOOOO!! GO CUSA GO!!

FWIW, I have seen them, it is real.

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@Wildstar128

Quote:

What would you guys consider as Amiga enough?

Amiga branded computer powered by AmigaOS.

Simple, isn´t it?


Hardware is not problem. Amiga computer can have 68k, ARM, PowerPC or even x86 CPU and it will be still "Amiga enough" for us - it only needs to have right "Amiga feeling". As I wrote many times before, don´t search reason in it.

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote: @vox hey, why dont you drop your annoying "1&1" stuff (mistake intended). are you somehow sworn to that? the only effect it has, the regular reader (me) thinks you are taking yourself (and few other things) a little too serouusly..

Nope, its I&I representation and part of Patois dicalect of English.
I&I do not intend to correct your typos. By the time you will learn
its "I and God within" not "two eyes" or "two i". Learn
and here is a bit of help from UK based DeeJay Macka B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5cRxP3H8WE

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@Wildstar128

Quote:

Commodore was in the business of selling computers to the masses not the classes.

I like this quote. But I liked Steve Wozniak's reply to it more, when Tramiel rattled it off while they were sharing a panel or something:

"The Apple II sold for three times as much as the Commodore, but we wanted to build a company that would be around for awhile"


And I'll just briefly risk getting drawn into this thread to say that I agree wholeheartedly with Sundown at post #464.

@vox

you are free to correct my typos, i dont care to accentuate them every post. in case you miss capiltlizing, well, bad luck with me, sad lazyness. but just three weeks ago you have not used this 1&1 nonsence, are you *new born* rastafarian, and insisting? little late, id say??! whatever your deejay says, i have listened to marley in the 80ies too, dont need to take philosopical guidance f rom some musician today, in particular stoned ones. no offence, was good stuff, but grow up a little and choose more appropriate reference.

@pavlor

It will probably be there at a point but here is the thing... Amiga OS 4 would be impossible because Hyperion. However, the OS could be renamed to Amiga Workbench OS or something like that and port the Amiga OS.

However, can you run Amiga OS on it... sure. You can run 3.0 and probably 3.1. Until an outright buyout of both Hyperion and Amiga Inc. but then there is all that hard-coded software that is going to be a bit of a pain in the butt. Including the chipsets which are outdated in any modern sense.

So, could we have 3.0 and 3.1... sure. Hyperion doesn't have exact control of that. Some labeling issues may appear but it would probably be via emulation like the 68K Amiga stuff on those PPC SAM/AmigaOne. Real Amigas had a 68K processor if you take a purist standpoint.

I don't recall seeing new GHz 68Ks in multi-core fashion.

Will it have the Amiga feeling.... in the "Commodore OS" (the OS name that Commodore USA is using for the systems) can surely have that feeling. Maybe it can be one of the selected "themes".

However, the 68K stuff would be ran in a Emulator which is in itself a Virtual Machine (key component of an emulator). Emulating PPC might be somewhat slower than an native PPC system like the 2 GHz AmiigaOne x1000. PPC emulation might be comparable to a 400 MHz SAM440ep on the available dual core x86-64 if lucky. Hard to say.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @pavlor It will probably be there at a point but here is the thing... Amiga OS 4 would be impossible because Hyperion. However, the OS could be renamed to Amiga Workbench OS or something like that and port the Amiga OS. However, can you run Amiga OS on it... sure. You can run 3.0 and probably 3.1. Until an outright buyout of both Hyperion and Amiga Inc. but then there is all that hard-coded software that is going to be a bit of a pain in the butt. Including the chipsets which are outdated in any modern sense. So, could we have 3.0 and 3.1... sure. Hyperion doesn't have exact control of that. Some labeling issues may appear but it would probably be via emulation like the 68K Amiga stuff on those PPC SAM/AmigaOne. Real Amigas had a 68K processor if you take a purist standpoint. I don't recall seeing new GHz 68Ks in multi-core fashion. Will it have the Amiga feeling.... in the "Commodore OS" (the OS name that Commodore USA is using for the systems) can surely have that feeling. Maybe it can be one of the selected "themes". However, the 68K stuff would be ran in a Emulator which is in itself a Virtual Machine (key component of an emulator). Emulating PPC might be somewhat slower than an native PPC system like the 2 GHz AmiigaOne x1000. PPC emulation might be comparable to a 400 MHz SAM440ep on the available dual core x86-64 if lucky. Hard to say.

Nintendo Wii Dolphin emulator says Hi i.e. emulates PowerPC G3 class CPU @ ~729Mhz on Intel Core 2 Duo P8700 @ 2.53Ghz.

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@T-J

Sure. They are just different products with different market and production / and sales objectives. The topic was already going so oh well.

In my opinion, if you are selling a machine for the masses, it would be aiming for something that you can sell 100,000+ units in a year. Hyperion's business is around supporting a limited number of people.

In fact, you wouldn't want another company stepping in and competing. If CommodoreUSA did that, it would probably kill Hyperion faster. Commodore USA still having the C64x, Vic-pro and Vic-slim. If Commodore USA was going to introduce a PPC "AmigaOne" type computer, it would probably kill Hyperion and effect A-Eon significantly.

In any case, there isn't enough market for two cooks in this small kitchen that is the classic/PPC Amiga. It would already make a money hole even more a problem for Hyperion / A-Eon. There is hardly that many folks to sell the units too. Of course, it wouldn't be sustainable.

If we were to emulate an Amiga 4000 and the PPC cards (then perhaps in an emulated environment) AOS 3.5,3.9, 4.0, 4.1 could be ran on these units. The Amiga line may probably be equipped with quad core cpus and such.

Since AROS and the IcarosDesktop package is available and I don't see any issue of using AROS or packaging AROS with Commodore OS. Of course, AROS would have to be called Aros Research Operating System.

It can be a path to handlng Amiga classic stuff on x86. However, it would be helpful to get the AROS team and Icaros Desktop team together.

But Commodore OS would obviously be the underlying OS for Commodore USA machines for obvious reasons and at this time with AROS needing more drivers for a self-boot.

So maybe, there is a way to package AROS.

Last edited by Wildstar128 on 12-May-2011 at 10:55 PM.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @linnar It was simple: Best feature to price basis for the goal and objective. 68K was the best choice for what the Amiga would be at the time. 65c816 (the best 65xx alternative to the 68K was cheaper but didn't quite have the feature muscle needed or desired for the Amiga. Intel was more expensive and surely had higher clock frequencies available then the 7.xx Mhz ( 8 MHz...10 MHz) but the Intel had some notorious cycles per instruction and was a bit pricier. Today's x86-64 processors has all the functional capabilities of every 68K processor on the face of the earth. It has the power to do whatever we can desire. I think it was a design choice based on options at the time for a leading end game console that would be revolutionary then it transitioned into full fledge computer. I don't have any personal issue with Hyperion and surely Hyperion can support the limited 100 folks who will buy the AmigaOne x1000 and the limited number of folks using PPC Amiga. They are small and the will always remain small because the market is small. They will hardly be full-time businesses. You don't think the owner of Hyperion is making his mainline of income through AmigaOS. You can't spend more then 100 hours of time without breaking the ROI where the Return is less then the Investment. That is part of the primary problems of making a living doing work for the classic. I can't possibly hope to make any money on classic Commodore 8-bits or Amiga in the realm of software. My time investment value would be 10-100+ times the value of and proceeds.

I agree!

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@Hammer

Ok, but it is emulation of an entire system not just the PPC cpu. Don't forget about the emulation of the OCS, ECS and AA chipset.

So, I am giving a conservative effective comparison.

Thanks for the information though.

@Daedalus

Quote:

Daedalus wrote: @linnar Quote: linnar wrote: @_Steve_ Totally wrong and unfair treatment by the exec! AW has improved a lot recently. Why ruin it? Really? Try taking an objective approach and read over eXec's posts from the last while. He's made his point again and again, and again. People get tired having to sift through the same tunnel-visioned opinions all the time, just to read the genuine posts in the thread. Maybe the more reasonable people can have a few days of relative peace with more coherent threads which aren't full of blind ranting. *That* would be a nice improvement to AW...

I shall read your advice and read through his posts when I get time.

I think different people express themselves differently. Some repeats itself frequently, while others leave out so much that you do not understand what it means etc.. A normal human variation simply. I think we must accept this variation. There are also those who deliberately ridicules posts pointing in one direction. It is intentionally done and should be "punished". The "punishment" as well, but only if it comes from the "wrong direction". Clearly, if you yourself are "wrong team".

It was worse before, much worse on this forum. Now it has started to correct itself in that area. The moderators do a top job for the most part but sometimes an accident, unfortunately.

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@vox

Quote:

vox wrote: @tommywright Now I&I should feel protected? CUSA isnt and will never be part of Amiga history simply because it has no Amiga related product. How it will do in x86 competition we will see in year or two. However, mind in that user vote has turned out that CUSA commercials should not be allowed, so size and matter of this discussion is guided by moderation.

This isn't going to be about an us and them situation. We have already made it clear that certain areas of the site are the place to hold C=USA discussions and threads, and they have as much right to post them as anyone else does to post on AROS/MOS/AOS or anything else technology related in the relevant area.

One thing that is annoying is any thread on a given topic being used to push certain agendas, or being taken over by off-topic or unrelated posting to the point of the thread being spammed.

This thread has had more than a fair share of spamming, and one of the parties has been restricted. Please also find yourself on a 7 day posting restriction for the same reason.

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@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @Mechanic You wrote: No! You don't get it. Hyperions business is their problem, not ours. I want X1000. Not because of Hyperions business plans. ---------------------------------------------------------------- I do understand. I was referring to a business stand point in mainstream not just in the perspective of hobbyist so that you can see the world is bigger than the hobbyist perspective. Some degree of capitalizing on business viability will be important. You maybe a hobbyist user, a developer and so on. Many faces, many hats. I have seen that. I think if you are a developer and want something that can help you make money that can help support your hobby support of classic then why not Commodore USA's system. Does this mean that you should stop using or supporting the classic systems... NO. For pure nostalgic / hobby reasons, I would doubt you would need to buy anything other then what is for what you already have. I would hope to see some C64/Amiga devs support Commodore USA's system as a way to make some revenue which can surely help them support the classics. There is certainly passion for developing. Ideally, it is just an avenue to explore but not necessarily mean give up on the classic. Could it work? (snip) So it all boils down to economic analysis in commerical / professional software development. Otherwise, it is more or less amateur hobby work and not professional - even though the quality could end up being of professional quality outcome.

Your writing style looks familiar.

First point. The classics, been there done that. Maybe NatAmi after awhile. Right
now it's X1000 for me.

Second point. How will buying a Cusa computer and not a X1000 help keep what I
want moving forward.

Third point. Just because you and others see more profit in Bluegrass why must
I give up The Rolling Stones?

Fourth point. As a software developer looking to make a living at it, I encourage
you to go where the money is, but If your passion keeps tugging you back here, you
must either deal with the trade-off, or live in both worlds. As with business
problems........not my problem.

Last. All this business model stuff smacks of some guy from down under that was
here several months ago peddling the very same FUD. He even had his studies to back
up his claims.


Bring on Mick. Let's Rock & Roll

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @Hammer Ok, but it is emulation of an entire system not just the PPC cpu. Don't forget about the emulation of the OCS, ECS and AA chipset. So, I am giving a conservative effective comparison. Thanks for the information though.

For graphics acceleration, Dolphin Wii emulator also uses DX9 class GPU.

From memory, using PearPC 0.4pre JIT and AMD Athlon 64 3200+ roughly runs like 400Mhz PPC Mac (with MacOS X 10.2).

My current PC is either Intel Core i7-740 (Clark Field) quad core based laptop or Intel Core i7-2600 (Sandybridge) quad core based desktop.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:08 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 01:36 AM.

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@Mechanic

First off, I'll try to answer your questions.

Regarding first point: That is fair enough and I am not suggesting you buy Commodore USA's product vs. Hyperion / A-Eon's product. Just do know that there is different pros and cons for each product. Maybe, in your particular case, the x1000 from Hyperion/A-Eon is right for your needs at this time.

Your second point: It depends on what you need. If you want to run classic A1000-4000T software and emulate various PPC cards but also need a PC that will be able to function for your day to day needs in the mainstream computing and have good computing performance and a ISA (Instruction Set Architecture) that is here and now and be able to use modern off the shelf peripherals with relative ease, then I would probably recommend CUSA. If you are already running on SAM 440 or similar PPC computers on the Amiga OS 4.x then perhaps you may want to continue along the x1000 line for now. It depends on your needs. The PPC ISA is somewhat lagging and is kind of on the losing end of the CPU architecture for desktop computing so there will probably not be that many models generations after the x1000 and current PPC models. It depends on the market. Probably does not equal absolute.

As for your third point: That is fair enough. I wasn't suggesting you to give up "Rolling Stones" for "Bluegrass" in other words - I wasn't suggesting you as a developer to give up pn supporting the Amiga classic when developing also for Commodore USA products. In other words, why does it have to be one or the other? Can it be both ! ! ! !

Developing for one can inadvertantly financially help you develop for the other.

On your fourth point: You are on mark and I think you are on the ballpark to what I am saying.

Well Leo is from down under (Australia). Not sure if same guy. Well... I think there is some misunderstanding of certain issues but to simply make the point: I think it is important to study the situation and see where people are. Is servicing the classic Amiga at this time a viable option? Well, it depends on what you do. There is enough cooks in the classic Commodore and Amiga kitchen that it would not be sustainable for Commodore USA and it would be detrimental to the current businesses that services these systems in any competitive manner.

To produce some low cost accessories and limited level of software development.... maybe. Jumping it might give a small quick buck but if it destroys other small businesses supporting the C=/AMIGA... is that good either?

@Hammer

Hammer, it wasn't the native chipset of any concern but the chipset that is to be emulated. Those things are CPU emulated because in general that is the only thing that can be programmed to.

So I am considering the cpu overhead in number of clock cycles required to virtually emulate the Amiga chips and translate from one binary to another including emulating the 68K and PPC simultaneously and the chips in a clock cycle accurate manner. With Amiga software, that is critical due to the low-level hardware accessing that was commonly done.

@Wildstar128

Quote:

Wildstar128 wrote: @Hammer Hammer, it wasn't the native chipset of any concern but the chipset that is to be emulated. Those things are CPU emulated because in general that is the only thing that can be programmed to. So I am considering the cpu overhead in number of clock cycles required to virtually emulate the Amiga chips and translate from one binary to another including emulating the 68K and PPC simultaneously and the chips in a clock cycle accurate manner. With Amiga software, that is critical due to the low-level hardware accessing that was commonly done.

It would be a bold claim to say WinUAE-JIT + CyberstormPPC (604e @ 233Mhz) JIT-emu exceeds Sony PS2 emulation workloads.

Dolphin program emulates the GameCube/Wii/Tri-Force game consoles not just the CPU.

Nintendo Wii has two CPUs i.e. Starlet (ARM 926EJ-S @ ~243Mhz) and PowerPC-based "Broadway" processor @ ~729Mhz. "Broadway" CPU is similar to G3 class PowerPC and includes custom 64bit SIMD.

SAM-Flex's PowerPC 440ep (G2 type) is not even the same PowerPC class as Wii's "Broadway" processor. Furthermore, Classic Amigas/neo-Amigas does not process MacOS X bloatware.

PS; PearPC emulates PowerPC's MMU.

Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:48 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:38 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:36 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:34 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:32 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:29 AM.
Last edited by Hammer on 13-May-2011 at 02:26 AM.

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@Hammer

But the question lies with cycle exact accuracy of everything including the emulation of the mechanical timing and behavior of the floppy drive. Now, that is some tight emulation and that some of the state of the art in C64 emulation so imagine the Amiga. Even then, it might be close enough for now and as with future models it would be even faster and more accurate emulation of everything. But then, you probably wouldn't need to worry too much for these things. It isn't like you are trying to make a 2000x faster A4000T+PPC. There is breaking point for time sensitve code that is running at god knows what speed so it will be alright with what emulation is available. The best emulation software is well available.

Then emulating a SAM440ep at the speed of the SAM is fair enough for PPC and 68K stuff. Then anything really needing 2 GHz can be well ran on the 2GHz Amiga. If we implement an appropriate emulation platform for handling Amiga OS 4.0 and 4.1 then perhaps we can support Amiga OS but you would have to purchase the Amiga OS 4.0 or 4.1 from Hyperion (at this time) unless you already have it and install it via a PM.

If all you are going to use in computing is an Amiga OS 4.1 then you might want to buy the AmigaOne x1000 for price benefit but if you want to run AmigaOS 1.0 - 4.1, C64, and Windows, AROS, Linux, etc. from one PC and you don't already have an equal or better hardware then perhaps buying an Commodore USA computer could be something for you. It all depends on what you need and willing to spend. Other than my own Amiga 1200.... I might go for one of the Commodore USA's Amiga line models with Amiga emulation interface for various Amiga models upto say the SAM 440ep. running on top of Commodore OS.

Then I can also have nice Newtek software such as Lightwave 3d 10 or 11.

But I think it is easy enough to be able to provide sufficient "kickstart" roms with the emulation. The stuff is there but it would be something to look into. These wouldn't be beyond reason to achieve.

If it can be adequately handled on a quad-core cpu set running at 2-3 GHz would be something. I would suspect the Amiga models shall be a little beefier than the Commodore 64x, Vic-Slim and Vic-Pro models.