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      /  X1000 and OS 4.2
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sundown 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 2:59:56
#121 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5120
From: Right here...

@Arko

Quote:
When he said exactly this, it means the beta testers won't get their Nemo boards with AOS4.2, because they don't get a A1X1K.

Excuse me, you guys spend way to much time analizing a simple sentence into something totally wrong.


@TheKorn

Quote:
The beta testers are going to beta test something other then what we will be getting?

The public x1000 release will have os4.2, the beta testers will be beta testing what will become os4.2 before the public release.


@all

As a side note, linux was only used to test & validate the h/w before the beta build. It just doesn't get any simpler then that. If linux works without problems, then any os4 issues will be s/w & not h/w. It was this testing that took a lot of time & well worth the effort & the wait.

Last edited by sundown on 05-Aug-2011 at 06:56 AM.
Last edited by sundown on 05-Aug-2011 at 03:05 AM.

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TheKorn 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 4:44:07
#122 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 15-Oct-2008
Posts: 171
From: Texas

@sundown

Sorry, it was meant to be sarcastic.

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sundown 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 5:06:34
#123 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5120
From: Right here...

@TheKorn

Quote:
Sorry, it was meant to be sarcastic.

Ah, I will admit, Arko's post seemed like a contradiction to me & I didn't want others to get confused. I should go watch a move & have a beer or 12.

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Amigo1 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 9:39:03
#124 ]
Super Member
Joined: 24-Jun-2004
Posts: 1582
From: the Clouds

@amigakit

Quote:

amigakit wrote:
@nimrod7

I don't think my family would allow me to invade the house full of stock.


So you have another family? I thought we, the community, were your family.. I'm divorcing now! :-p

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Deniil715 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 13:20:30
#125 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-May-2003
Posts: 4219
From: Sweden

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I'm just thinking about some thing like Win32s, no point in loosing 32bit support because, you have a SQL database and few other applications like video editing software inn need of 64bit.


No of course not. In a 64-bit AmigaOS we would of course need to be able to run 32-bit apps as well, including the 32-bit 68k emulated apps. But all of this just makes it even more difficult since you need to either sandbox each 32-bit app, or make one 4GB sandbox for all 32-bit apps. In AOS it would have to be the latter since apps are allowed to share memory.

Quote:

4Gbyte for TAG list, List or Node is more then you need.


That's not the point! The point is that every pointer *will be* 64-bit whether you like it or not :) In 64-bit mode the CPU does not have a concept of 32-bit pointers, neither does the compiler. It simply doesn't exist. char *str="Hello World" will make str become 64-bit. If you like to put it in a taglist (and we do), the taglist needs to handle 64-bit data fields.

Same with List and Node etc. They will automatically become 64-bit when you recompile the program for 64-bit since every '*' (pointer in C/C++) will become 64-bit. Because of this everything will become incompatible with 32-bit.

The same applies to a 32-bit programs - you cannot make the compiler generate 16-bit pointers even if you are only going to store a few kB of data. They need to be 32-bit anyway. Same with 64-bit. It's all or nothing which is why I don't count on seeing this anytime soon in AOS. SMP is much more likely. It's just an extention to multitasking.

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Smurfen 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 13:47:57
#126 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 160
From: Unknown

@Deniil715

Interesting theories!
It would definitly require transitional functionality where legacy PPC/68K binaries, (i.e. compiled with 32bit pointers) would be treated as such by the OS.
As you stated, one 4GB sandbox for all 32-bit apps could most likely be used, and since this area would be allocated by the OS all old 32bit "TagItem->ta_Data" could be transformed to this area, by the underlying OS.

However new compiled binaries is a different story, it would be almost impossible (and not necessary) to reuse the same TagItem for programs compiled for 64bit.
A new "TagItem64" could be used.

But I guess soon we will se how the OS designers has solved this

Cheers

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michalsc 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 14:17:51
#127 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 14-Jun-2005
Posts: 319
From: Germany

@Smurfen

Quote:
But I guess soon we will se how the OS designers has solved this


I'm pretty sure they solved it by running the CPU in 32bit mode. Simple as that.

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Smurfen 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 14:37:48
#128 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 160
From: Unknown

@michalsc

Quote:
I'm pretty sure they solved it by running the CPU in 32bit mode. Simple as that.


Short term solution, yes...

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Leo 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 20:44:10
#129 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

including the 32-bit 68k emulated apps.

Why ? Lion which has just been released already stoped supporting PPC applications...

It's been about 10 years PPC OS has been released (not even counting the hybird kernels WarpOS/PUP): it's about time we dump 68k... At least as a core part of the OS... most applications have all already been ported/replaced by PPC native ones.

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billt 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 5-Aug-2011 20:59:50
#130 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3204
From: Maryland, USA

@Leo

Quote:
Why ? Lion which has just been released already stoped supporting PPC applications... It's been about 10 years PPC OS has been released (not even counting the hybird kernels WarpOS/PUP): it's about time we dump 68k... At least as a core part of the OS... most applications have all already been ported/replaced by PPC native ones.


Apple users also have an ongoing and thriving software industry, worth a lot of money to be part of, giving them all new stuff in x86. Our Amiga universe, however, has a miniscule software industry. Nearly everything we get these days are ports from open-source. And that's a glacier-like port schedule for anything substantial like Timberwolf, Open-Office, Java, etc. which we''ll be waiting for for quite a while.

Name the substantial apps and games in PPC that everyone uses.

Now, name the substantial 68k apps and games that everyone uses.

Compare those two lists, and try to convince us that backward compatibility to a couple decades ago isn't at all important for us.

Last edited by billt on 05-Aug-2011 at 09:00 PM.

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Leo 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 0:04:34
#131 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

@billt

Quote:

Now, name the substantial 68k apps and games that everyone uses.

People like old games/apps doesn't mean the OS should be compatible with these. As said above, keeping compatibilty with so old software makes it even harder for the OS to evolve and support new modern hardware (64bit...). The question is: what do people want ? New stuff ? or old one ?

UAE can be used to support all these games. And you know what ? UAE will run 99.9% apps most of which will never run on an OS-level emulation... So what's the point of keeping integrated emulation that will barely run 30% of all this software you like (and all these games you want me to name aren't part of these 30% unfortunately) when with emulation you could have more ?

If Apple had kept a classic kernel instead of going for a new improved legacy-free Darwin one, they sure wouldn't be running x86 today, not talking about 64bit... And they would be dead...

Last edited by Leo on 06-Aug-2011 at 12:06 AM.

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realize 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 0:27:56
#132 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

@Deniil715

I would love for any one of you guys to please explain to me why they are wasting development time on converting to 64bit when we dont even have any apps to use? Or any games? OS4 should already be super fast in 32bit on x1000 so why all of a sudden this need for 64bit? I'm really lost as to what the advantages are.. I mean damn man OS4 doesnt even support GigE and USB2 yet and its 2011 now everyone talks of SMP and 64bit???

meanwhile still no meaningful video promo or screenshots of x1000 and os4?

This whole business strategy is making zero sense to me..

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 1:01:42
#133 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12197
From: Norway

@realize

Argument Clinic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

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djrikki 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 2:08:07
#134 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Jun-2010
Posts: 2077
From: Grimsby, UK

@realize

Stop asking dumb questions. Anyone with a half a brain cell understands why as much of the latest technology as possible should be incorporated into an operating system.

Explanations aren't required.

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billt 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 2:18:13
#135 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3204
From: Maryland, USA

@Leo

Quote:
As said above, keeping compatibilty with so old software makes it even harder for the OS to evolve and support new modern hardware (64bit...). The question is: what do people want ? New stuff ? or old one ?


Well, Ubuntu amd64 does a pretty good job of running 32bit apps via ia32_lib. Centos5.x amd64 as done a pretty good job with its equivalent. I don't think that moving to support 64bit should be a barrier to 32bit apps running.

What other new things would get in the way of old stuff? Gallium? Why should it be a barrier to old stuff still working somehow? Multiprocessor? Multithreading?

I do think that progress is important. Do something new, and initially make decisions that may initially affect old stuff. Then write a wrapper, like a Warp3d wrapper around the new Gallium based graphics framework. I'd be surprised if there's not a way to do that. Like how WarpOS applications can run in OS4 now, even though OS4 itself dropped specific support for that a while back. It was doable by the OS team, and when they decided to stop, it was doable by someone else. Getting a Java system should not break everything else.

I do think that new apps should be able to get the highest possible performance out of new features. Old stuff may suffer a bit due to wrapper layers needed to run them. Oh well, at least they CAN work, and likely still pretty good compared to the CS-PPC or B-PPC cards they were made for. Priority should be for new stuff to be the best it can be, but I do think that a complete inability to run old stuff will leave us bored and wondering what to do half the time. Doom3 sources will be opened/released later this year, which will be pretty demanding of Amiga systems, for those that like this game. Warp3d support shouldn't get in its way, but I think should exist somewhere.

It'd be awesome to see so much new stuff rise to take the place of the old, but our market, our development resources, will have us waiting a while. Even something as new and demanding as Doom3 will hopefully be for us in the future, it's still already old, used up, and cast away by everyone else, who have moved on to other things we won't see for another decade.

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billt 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 2:24:02
#136 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Oct-2003
Posts: 3204
From: Maryland, USA

@realize

Quote:
I would love for any one of you guys to please explain to me why they are wasting development time on converting to 64bit when we dont even have any apps to use? Or any games? OS4 should already be super fast in 32bit on x1000 so why all of a sudden this need for 64bit?


Who would have made said 64bit apps or games without an OS to run them on? Really, the OS has to come first in this equation, and then everything else. OK, hardware ;ikely comes before the OS, or in conjunction with it, but OS before apps.

Yes, I know you meant 32bit apps. Well, with so many Amiga universe developers working on the OS, (heck how many are there in total anyway?) there's not a whole lot left for apps and games. Even if they all quit the OS and flipped full time to other things, there's not many of them and it'd still take a long time to see substantial stuff to run on the OS. Firefox, OpenOffice, Java, etc. are not weekend ports.

What would you like to see instead of continuing work on the OS?

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realize 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 2:47:50
#137 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Apr-2003
Posts: 1797
From: nyc

well judging from the responses to my query I can see that people are not really thinking things through. The reason the Amiga platform is almost dying off (loss of users/interest no new devs, no new users) is this mentality to "improve the OS" and "port to new custom hw" instead of focusing on cool apps or games.

You can have a full 64bit amiga os on a super duper fast X1000 box and WTF are you Going to Actually Run on it? Just the OS? That is pathetic and suicide for the platform.

We need real new OS features and ports. Period. Without software to run a super OS is utterly pointless.

If you guys cannot see the logic here I cannot make you see it.

you can lead a horse to water but...

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sundown 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 4:03:14
#138 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5120
From: Right here...

@realize

Quote:
I would love for any one of you guys to please explain to me why they are wasting development time on converting to 64bit when we dont even have any apps to use?

Because you're confusing a discussion with facts? The PA6T is 64bit, doesn't mean a 64bit OS is a priority or even being worked on yet.

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sundown 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 4:15:09
#139 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 30-Aug-2003
Posts: 5120
From: Right here...

@realize

Quote:
We need real new OS features and ports. Period. Without software to run a super OS is utterly pointless.

Good point & from what I've heard, thats exactly what their going to be doing with the x1000. Maybe the os4 developers are a lot smarter then ppl give them credit for?

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Leo 
Re: X1000 and OS 4.2
Posted on 6-Aug-2011 6:29:52
#140 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1596
From: Unknown

Quote:

I would love for any one of you guys to please explain to me why they are wasting development time on converting to 64bit when we dont even have any apps to use?

Same reason as to why we went PPC... Don't you wonder why ? Since 68060 was already fast enough ?

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