@OlafS25

What can you do on your "NG"-System that you cannot do on "Classic" (Natami)?

In fact I can do nothing on NatAmi now, as it only exists as two (correct me if I'm wrong in the quantity) prototypes. And if NatAmi was available? Final specs are still unknown, so the question is a bit hard to answer, but let me take the risk. I guess I cannot play Return To Castle Wolfenstein on NatAmi. I guess I cannot use Odyssey. I guess I cannot watch even medium resolution video.

Of course I may be proven wrong after finally NatAmi is available, but looking at the project, having master degree in electronics and knowing IT technologies a bit, I have serious doubts.

By the way, time is ticking and I do not want to wait. Wait another two years for hardware Z or software Y. On my MorphOS systems I can do what I want now.

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@Crumb

Quote:

Because the name. OS4 gets more publicity when anything is done even if it was already done on MorphOS years ago (or even if it was available on classics). Because some people care more about icons and backdrops than the OS itself (that's the reason some people is more concerned about OS4 having OS3.9-like icons than its bad compatibility with Amiga apps like DirectoryOpus5)

Since AmigaOS 4 started as an AmigaOS 3.0 (not 3.9) port and was plagued with court case for couple of years, its probably people love being able to catch-up. Some time more and that will no longer be the case as OS is really get advanced, stable and with apps as good on Classics and MOS (those who are stil developed).

Yes, some of the bad compatibiliy issues still bites it, but there is a way to enhance that too.

Back to the topic, if MOS is to spread to OS4 users:

a) Must target the same hardware, just like OS4 did with Peg2 port
b) It should have more news on all non OS4 centric websites (basicaly on
c) Maybe an Ambient downgrade option to look like WB?

Trying both worlds (and enjoying) is best way to end silly wars

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@OlafS25

Of course amigaos4 is not amiga. As morphos and aros. Or winaue and euea. Or natami or minimg. Amiga dead long ago. Its just some luck that there is still some kind of communities which have words "amiga" in mind. But i am sure, soon or later, morphos/aros/amigaos4 still will be here, but no one will mention "amiga" anymore, because it will be bad at all to mention it, and will point only on archaic and something very retro.

Back to topic, i lately ask myself many times, why i choice amigaos4 and for example morphos as my main os-of-interest (aros is out of question, just because i found it pretty buggy, messy and less-feature rich, except lately added 3d , in compare with aos4 and mos).

So, then why not morphos ? Which _cleary_:

-- Faster in all the areas (somethere a bit, somethere a lot (3d/usb2), faster booting ).

-- Have all that programms which must to have any os today (normal browsers, normal video player). While on aos4 we have only programmers who have no time to finish programms, who say that OWB is only core , so that is reassons to not add download-manager, who take a money for everything, but still we have in end ports from morphos (for free).

-- Have good programmers (kiero, fab, krashan, itix, piru, bigfoot, henes) most of who show back in the past their _real_ skills even on classic amigas (like for example piru with his blizkick, kiero with his demos for madwizards, fab with muiowb and mplayer).

-- mos boots faster (they found a time to make it boot faster, not just saying like os4 devs that "we can make it boots faser, its just not priority".

-- mos have good shell for years. Our one in developing for years and years, and even small single article about it take 1 year to be published. That also show something about current os4 programmer.

-- mos-team just port mos to apple HW, JUST TO GIVE USERS EASY HW SOLUTION, not like for long time was with aos4. Like want aos4 ? spend a lot of money , true amiga way !

-- mos have normal feature rich desktop integrated to system.


While on aos4 , we have all of this in the problems (most of them in development, or in fixing state, but that what we have now). And more of it, aos4 core coders:

-- not so worry about optimisation. that show us speed of usb2, 3d, speed of booting of os in compare with mos.

-- not so worry about LOGICAL DESIGN. I.e. mess with prefs files. No "themes" manager. If you want to change a look of the WB, you should close all the programms and windowses , because

-- aos4 users are in 30-50% dumbs and fanboys, who know nothing, and just follow to stickers. Who can't even dig in into OS, most of them looks like very non-advanced users.

-- aos4 integrate that SOBJ crap, which in end, give us only problems and bugs. That buggy libstdc++ which looks like will be there FORERVER. Those bugs with gcc in some areas. And they all _was_ reported, no one from core devs seems found necessary to comment out how fixing on those bugs is going on, and, if fixing are present at all or will be. Adding of versioning to SOBJS are easy, but that not done. Beause that not done on unix, so they fear to integrate something new looks like, dunno. And for what the hell, there was necessarity, to make SDK based by default on that .sobjest crap ? I.e. by default SDK programms compiles with SOBJS usage. For what ? To make problems for programmers who will in end understand that in end need to build everything static, and avoid sobjest as much as possible ? (Rogue itself confirm that, so what the point ? )

-- AOS4 workbench are very primitive , totoally unopimized and slow


After all of this, i asking myself why, just why you need all that crap, if you can just buy some cheap apple hw, and use mos on it, where problems are on other level, and you not need to worry about someting, which should be done years ago.

Why hyperion not make me beta-tester of their os for 1 or 2 years of asking, while its cleary how a lot i help with all the crap (for free). I.e. they just #### me off, but i still trying to help them (for what .. if i have nothing back from them ?)

And to be honest, i can't found any logial answer. Its like life with horse/bitch, who will be ####ed everyday by somebody, but you will still think, that she will be different someday. Its like live in some african country where is just only few houses and cannibals, but be in hope that someday they will civil, and do not live that country. Its like being amigaos4 user, and be in hope that someday , most obvious bugs will be fixed, more developers will be here, they will notice who should be betatester and who can help more than others.

I call it some kind of sado-maso. Or maybe just naive-over-postive vision.

From other side, i also do not like morphos (and most of their dev-team), its for their ego-child bashing of os4. Their all the time "hyperos" calls, their bashing of someone all the time (even if it truth, still be mature all in all). Their over-ego vision about everything, but not morphos. I.e. looks like not mature enough.

From other side, if i loose those 2 years with all the energy, motivation and working on morphos what i do for os4, i think i alredy can be betatester of morphos without problems

(the latest is hint to HyperionMP).

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@g_kraszewski

For sure there are limits even with 60060 CPU (otherwize there would be no 603/604 cards) GFX card and sound card. And that is a place exactly where PPC system jumps in and add extra speed, expansion and abilities as what was strongest Classic becomes starting AmigaNG system (as seen with OS4.0/4.1 Classic and MOS 1.x)

Its not a supermacy, we all love the Classics, its kind of progress. Sadly, it has not been followed up with soo many PPC native apps that its easy to see new horizons as many users quit since waiting and false promises were way too much. Soon MOS 3.x, AROS and AmigaOS 4.1.5/4.2 will be the sole survivors of this war, why bashing the old veterans that have gone where no man throught they will?

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@kas1e

Quote:

-- aos4 users are in 30-50% dumbs and fanboys, who know nothing, and just follow to stickers. Who can't even dig in into OS, most of them looks like very non-advanced users.

Quote:

While on aos4 we have only programmers who have no time to finish programms, who say that OWB is only core , so that is reassons to not add download-manager, who take a money for everything, but still we have in end ports from morphos (for free).

While agree with most of ponts taken as true
this was way too offensive, even it might be true (for example, I am not a programmer, depends what do you consider advanced user)

Quote:

I call it some kind of sado-maso. Or maybe just naive-over-postive vision.

Give OS4 people chance to try MOS without additional hardware
OR yes, improve OS4.

Quote:

and be in hope that someday , most obvious bugs will be fixed, more developers will be here, they will notice who should be betatester and who can help more than others.

Some of them are really being fixed. Not the fixes being perfect, too, but that is also a progress. Maybe being more polite and having this kind of clear ideas what should be done better with OS4 should really make you a beta tester. Sad it was never so, instead of complains people should contrubute. Its good to have ideas what is wrong in the world, but its better to help fixing them.

I believe OS4 become the choice nostly because it was
a) more official
b) acessible via more hardware platforms - PPC Classics - AmigaOne - SAMs - X1000 now, why many people never had change to get Pegs and support to Classics was out before people even knew about it.
c) now with Timberwolf and JIT enabled UAE for long time it will have some new features. Hyperion managed to keep the morale going on a hard road

Last edited by vox on 28-Oct-2011 at 11:26 AM.

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@vox

Actually I spent some effort to downgrade Ambient. It just doesnt help. There is always yet another esoteric Workbench feature you dont know about but want it exactly like it was implemented in 1.3/2.0/3.0/3.9/4.0 but not like it was implemented in 4.0/3.9/3.0/2.0/1.3. Instead implement Ambient our way and stick with it. If someone doesnt like it he can install Workbench/Scalos/Magellan/whatever.

I am more and more convinced that OS4 users are not our target group. Instead it is more important improve MorphOS for existing users and make it easier to use for new users.

And I am not sure if it is good idea promote MorphOS (or anything Amiga related) too much. Promotional press release when new release is available for download should be enough. And maybe 4 colour advert in Amiga Future once in a year.

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@vox

Quote:

I believe OS4 become the choice nostly because it was a) more official

I not sticker follower, and more of it any "official" = suck.

Quote:

b) acessible via more hardware platforms - PPC Classics - AmigaOne - SAMs - X1000 now, why many people never had change to get Pegs and support to Classics was out before people even knew about it.

All the amigaos4 HW not cheap. For me it was just luck, when i buy pegasos2 to run morphos (yes, that it), to just finish some diskmag (to make it works without bugs on morphos), and after few weeks aos4 was released for peg2. So, if was just luck.

Quote:

c) now with Timberwolf and JIT enabled UAE for long time it will have some new features. Hyperion managed to keep the morale going on a hard road

Timberwolf will not have flash, will have slow mediplayer, will not have native interface, will of course have bugs and problems (as any other programm). I.e. TW is not solution. I even do not know if TW will even better than mui-owb (seriusly doubt).

Jit-enabled EUE also not so matter , in case that i not use classic SW /Games anymore. Past is past (and all in all, i can use EUA and on morphos, with the same jit when it will be done, as it will be crossplatform).

I remember that i choice aos4 , only because that when i run morphos first time, evertyhing was too different in compare with aos3. It was just a bit more advanced than i expect , and very different in all the areas. Pluse, i have just few freezes and reboots right in the first days, so .. i somehow step back from it to aos4, and stick with it (sado-maso:) )

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@Amigadave

In addition to the (in my view) valid points mentioned by g_kraszewski, I'd like to add a rather simple one:

Persistency

There might be numerous reasons and personal stories why a certain user has chosen either the OS4 or MorphOS route. But once a user went that route, it is quite likely that he/she continues this path even if the reasons for that are not always purely logical.
Be it OS4 or MorphOS, a user quickly becomes acquainted with the community of that OS and mainly looks on the strong points, not the weaknesses of the OS. It is simply hard to stay completely rational with something as freaky and illogical like still using an Amigaoid OS these days... Necessarily, there must be a lot of dedication and fanatism (in a positive way!) involved.

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@Itix
Quote:

I am more and more convinced that OS4 users are not our target group. Instead it is more important improve MorphOS for existing users and make it easier to use for new users. And I am not sure if it is good idea promote MorphOS (or anything Amiga related) too much. Promotional press release when new release is available for download should be enough. And maybe 4 colour advert in Amiga Future once in a year.

More of it, better to not refer to Amiga via morphos anymore. Better to follow new road, and just forget about what amiga is it, as it only stuck morphos in past.

And then start promote work not in amgia-related mags, or forums, but instead on somethere real sites, somethere where users want to run on PPC some intersting OS, etc. I.e. found a new user based without reling to amiga at all.

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@vox

I have nothing against classic Amiga users. I understand their needs are different than my needs, so I do not try to suggest that MorphOS is better for them. It is not.

why bashing the old veterans

Where I'm bashing anyone? Olaf S25 asked a plain question and I've given a plain answer. Classic Amiga (and – judging from specifications – NatAmi) just doesn't suit my needs and expectations. Then I'm not interested. Simple as that. You may be sure I won't go to NatAmi forum and evangelize MorphOS there. I have my hobby, they have their hobby.

In fact it is the same with AmigaOS 4, which I've tried to say to amigadave. AmigaOS 4 users made their choice and directing any "MorphOS advertisement" to them is pointless. Whatever their reasons are. Of course it is good to announce MorphOS software or new features on multi-platform sites but any "direct marketing" will only create flamewars. If any AmigaOS 4 user decides to switch to MorphOS, it should be his own decision based on his own reasoning. Suggesting that "not using MorphOS is stupid" is, well, stupid .

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@g_kraszewski

that is perfectly ok. The only reason why i answered was that stupid "Classic=Retro/playing old games/not modern/must use NG for daily work..." stuff that you can read here and on other places because it is simply not true.

Everyone should decide her-/himself and not defend the decision or have the impression that other users look down on him/her. That could be seen as arrogance and certainly not creates new customers.

I personally think the OS4 Netbook (-500 $) a interesting thing and will look at it when it is available. I dislike Apple (Company and Products) and would not like to buy such a product (personal preference). And I have already installed Aros (X86) and Aros (68k). So I am not against "NG"-Systems. But personally I prefer to buy Natami. But that is my own decision and not against other users.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 28-Oct-2011 at 11:49 AM.

@OlafS25

Quote:

because it is simply not true.

Just to clear:

You can play hi-res videos, browse all internet sites on decent speed on a1200/a4000 ? (without winuae of course, just on classic).

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@amigadave

Big factor is brand new Hardware to run OS4.1 on over the last 3+ years.

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@kas1e

for me "Classic" is WinUAE and in future Natami. Old Machines are just for testing. That is my personal definition. And with my definition I can do all, yes.

i am preparing the distribution so i have a good overview over the software I think.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 28-Oct-2011 at 11:52 AM.

@OlafS25

With winuae of course. But as far as i remember, os3.x not have normal browser which support everything. I remember only very old webkit based port of OWB from joerg (right ?)

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@kas1e

there is Netsurf 2.8 that is the standard now

@kas1e

Good post. A bit bitter, but anyway.

To me it seems AOS R&D is moving to become more open than before (after ssolie took the R&D lead).

Users and developers needs & views should have more visible affect in OS development.

When users and application developers get the feeling that they are listened, they do more for the platform, etc.

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@OlafS25

Netsurf lack JS , what mean it's can't be used at most of the sites today. Some sites still works of course, but all those facebooks, youtubes and other popular stuff are not. Even on some amiga sites JS buttons are pressent (as well as on forums, all those reply/answer buttons most of time are JS). So, its not so "not truth". Right ?:)

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@Kimmok
Quote:

To me it seems AOS R&D is moving to become more open than before (after ssolie took the R&D lead).

Yes, that is on of positive moments. All that forums, blogs and so on. But they understand it only now (!). When it was cleary few years ago already, that without direct contact with users , everything will be slow and wrong. Its only now we can report bugs normally ! Really, some bugs which we disucss on forums a lot, was just not known by hyperion, till we not re-post them on their forum. Strange why only now .. But better later than never.

And yep, seems Ssolie do good move in terms of contacting with aos4 users, but still, he a bit not so right talks with customers (like that popular message on the forum, when someone ask why ibrowse and mui programms stop to working, he just say "its not our programms, write mail to the authors". but its cleary that if you include something to OS, and tested it, so then if user have problems, firstly talk with os4 developers, before writigin of such answers).

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