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broadblues 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 0:18:58
#561 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4380
From: Portsmouth England

@cdimauro

Re last part of you last post about amiga brand.

If you really can't understand the difference between

AmigaONE is an Amiga brand, and AmigaONE is the same brand as AMIGA then you should desist from giving opions on the subject.

In fact I think you are more than inteligent enough to undertsnad the diffrence, thus you ignore it as it does not suit your agenda (what ever the hell that is).

@ Offtopic element of thread

Amiga users in the widest sense colloqually refer to theirs macines as their Amiga. from die hard A500 owners to X1000 owners to Itix as he admited earlier on his Mac Mini to some AROS user running it on the company Cray.

When they need tech help they will ofcourse refer to the exact model and OS variant. To the few that can't deal with the concept, and have to throw arround ridiculous accustiona of religious fundamentalism (about a computer?) tough, live with, go away and let us (of all sub types) have our fun!


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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 8:06:16
#562 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2088
From: Germany

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@cdimauro

Re last part of you last post about amiga brand.

If you really can't understand the difference between

AmigaONE is an Amiga brand, and AmigaONE is the same brand as AMIGA then you should desist from giving opions on the subject.

In fact I think you are more than inteligent enough to undertsnad the diffrence, thus you ignore it as it does not suit your agenda (what ever the hell that is).

Please, don't talk about "intelligence", but about facts. After that, everybody can make their own conclusions about the branding discussion.

A fact is that Amiga Inc. sub-licensed its Amiga brand, creating 4 new (sub) brands which Hyperion has exclusive license for.

Another fact is that "AmigaOne" (and the other 3 brands) is different from "Amiga". In fact, are the terms "inter-changeable", in some measure? Can I, for example, sell an AmigaOne X5000 using sentences like this: "Here's the new Amiga model"? If not, because the (current) "Amiga" owner can make a lawsuit, it's quite clear that two things are different, right?

More about this argument: http://www.amiga.com/sales/index.php?p=brand

"Amiga licenses its name or trademarks for association with selected consumer products including apparel, collectables and premiums. "

Pay attention to the "selected consumer products", which basically means creating new line of products using the same brand (or any sub-licensed one, of course). I think that the last part also speaks about itself; as an amigan I personally find it depressing (albeit it's my personal opinion).

That's from a legal point-of-view.

Now talking about a more practical point-of-view: http://www.amiga.com/shop/?prod_id=1 This is an Amiga. Not an AmigaOne: an Amiga.

And now another more interesting example: http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=7 This is an AmigaOne. And pay attention: no "Amiga" (alone) word is used here: even the mouse is called "AmigaOne mouse" and not "Amiga mouse".
More important is this: http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=hardware&pid=5 It's not an Amiga neither an AmigaOne and, in fact, you don't find the Amiga word, unless for the installed AmigaOS.
But the funny thing here, is that there are users that use the SAME motherboard and that cannot claim that their computer is an AmigaOne, because they haven't the proper sticker. You can have the SAME components (case, hard disk, video card, etc.), but without a sticker your computer with a Sam460ex cannot be labeled as "AmigaOne".

Stickers matter, right?
Quote:
@ Offtopic element of thread

Amiga users in the widest sense colloqually refer to theirs macines as their Amiga. from die hard A500 owners to X1000 owners to Itix as he admited earlier on his Mac Mini to some AROS user running it on the company Cray.

When they need tech help they will ofcourse refer to the exact model and OS variant. To the few that can't deal with the concept, and have to throw arround ridiculous accustiona of religious fundamentalism (about a computer?) tough, live with, go away and let us (of all sub types) have our fun!

A person can label as "Amiga" even a stone. That's a personal vision of the life, and I cannot complain about it.

But forcing the other people to have the same vision is a bit different, and can bring to religious fundamentalism when it's so much obsesive.

Yes, this can apply to me also: no exception. And that's why I think that it's better to stick with the facts.

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pavlor 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 8:48:08
#563 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8983
From: Unknown

@cdimauro

Quote:
A fact is that Amiga Inc. sub-licensed its Amiga brand, creating 4 new (sub) brands which Hyperion has exclusive license for.


So AmigaOne is Amiga brand after all!


Interesting enough, this brand was created in 2000 for third-parties to market AmigaDE (later AmigaOS4) computers. Idea working up to this day.

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broadblues 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 8:57:03
#564 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4380
From: Portsmouth England

@cdimauro

Quote:

A fact is that Amiga Inc. sub-licensed its Amiga brand, creating 4 new (sub) brands which Hyperion has exclusive license for.


This is not a "fact" but a carefully maniplualated pair of statements merged into one to give the an incorect impresions.


Amiga (as in which ever variataion in Amiga Inc it was at the time) created the AmigaOne brand. The brand was used a for a number of AmigaNG concepts before is settled on Eyetechs machines.

Then later after the lawsuit Hyperion gained lisense to use that brand.

I'm not sure what your other 3 brands are, well I suppose AmigaOS for sure I suppose, same aplies there this was not a brand created for sepaerate sublicense to Hyperion but a preexisting brand (older even than AmigaOne)


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pavlor 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 8:59:39
#565 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8983
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:
I'm not sure what your other 3 brands are


I think he means (hard to dig into his mind...) "AmigaOne", "Amiga One", "AmigaOS" and "Amiga OS".

Good to see he is able to understand (at least partialy) that AmigaOne is Amiga brand.

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terminills 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 12:25:08
#566 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1342
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Technically Amigaone is an Amiga Inc brand. Ever wonder why Hyperion settled on access to Amigaone in the settlement? Might be the fact that Amiga Inc had to use Amigaone vs Amiga for hardware.

The Cusa Amigas were never fully released. Barry was testing the waters to see if he would get sued over them by the actual owner of the Amiga wordmark(BTW I actually have a copy of some Cusa contracts). ;)

Last edited by terminills on 18-Oct-2014 at 12:28 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 12:30:05
#567 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8983
From: Unknown

@terminills

Quote:
Ever wonder why Hyperion settled on access to Amigaone in the settlement?


I think it was some sort of compromise - Amiga.Inc maintains Amiga name for its products and Hyperion gets "Amiga enough" but different name for future computers.

Quote:
The Cusa Amigas were never fully released.


There are (rare) owners of Amiga Mini.

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AP 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 12:44:37
#568 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 406
From: Vienna/Austria

@cdimauro:
>A fact is that Amiga Inc. sub-licensed its Amiga brand, creating 4 new (sub) brands which Hyperion >has exclusive license for.

A fact is that Amiga Inc. created AmigaOne (long before they give a license to Hyperion) as name for their NG-Amigas (first for a platform for AmigaDE, later for AmigaOS4). So AmigaOne is clearly an Amiga-brand for dedicated computer-systems, in one line with other Amiga-brands like Amiga 3000, Amiga MMC or Amiga Walker.

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wawa 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 13:42:17
#569 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6159
From: Unknown

@terminills

are you suggesting ainc may not even have valid access to amiga branding themselves? in that case the discussion if anything in turn licensed by them is a valid brand would be nil anyway.

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wawa 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 13:46:24
#570 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6159
From: Unknown

@thread, regarding branding

seems there are as many contradicting "facts" about wht amiga actually and officially is as opinions about it. i for my part will just stick to what is indisputable.

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itix 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 14:27:33
#571 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@wawa

Yeah, it is useless to argue about Amiga brands. Many Amigans have fundamentalist religion approach to branding and it is just better when they are ignored.

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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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pavlor 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 14:43:12
#572 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8983
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
and it is just better when they are ignored.


Exactly.

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number6 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 14:59:01
#573 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10624
From: In the village

@thread

Who owns what?
is a better place for further discussion of the usual off-topic content appearing here.

#6

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wawa 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 15:12:47
#574 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6159
From: Unknown

@number6

better yet, since this discussions take no end and nothing can be definitely claimed with that third hand knowledge that is available to us, we could completely refrain from trying to prove anything as an official and legitimate successor to amiga and accept that it is simply a matter of opinion.

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pavlor 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 16:11:12
#575 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8983
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
trying to prove anything as an official and legitimate successor to amiga and accept that it is simply a matter of opinion.


Well, AmigaOne/AmigaOS has no competition in this regard (no other faction claims to be official and legitimate successor to amiga).

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wawa 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 17:31:18
#576 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6159
From: Unknown

@pavlor

it would actually serve everybody best if they would stand on their own feet rather than try to disguise as something else.

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pavlor 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 17:42:23
#577 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8983
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
it would actually serve everybody best if they would stand on their own feet rather than try to disguise as something else.


I see, they possess something others do not.

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wawa 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 17:56:12
#578 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6159
From: Unknown

@pavlor

whether they do or not isnt an argumentation i am making my decisions upon, as some others do, because this is put up as a question of loyality. and i dont know any other place (except art and other collectors markets) where customers must be concerned to stand up for and to discuss and prove the legality of the product they are buying into, because if they lost the confidence in it then it might occured that the investment was in vain. and even in a collector market none will come up trying to sell an obvious modern reproduction or a work inspired as an original masterpiece. except it was as masterly made not to distinguish from an original even by an expert. right? ;)

Last edited by wawa on 18-Oct-2014 at 06:00 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 18-Oct-2014 at 05:59 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 18:25:25
#579 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 2088
From: Germany

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
A fact is that Amiga Inc. sub-licensed its Amiga brand, creating 4 new (sub) brands which Hyperion has exclusive license for.


So AmigaOne is Amiga brand after all!

Interesting enough, this brand was created in 2000 for third-parties to market AmigaDE (later AmigaOS4) computers. Idea working up to this day.

I reply only to you, because your post is the first, and other have replied to the same argument.

I have no problem to accept, and I've already stated, that the new brands (yes, the four ones that you reported later) were created by Amiga Inc. using the Amiga brand.

And yes, again: they were created before the settlement; with the later Hyperion "just" acquired the license to use them as it wishes. It was a mistake, no problem to admit it (albeit in my article I've reported the correct story; yesterday night wasn't a good time to write my posts here: better to sleep).

But the question, here, is that they are DIFFERENT names, as you then also reported. I quote you:

Quote:
I think it was some sort of compromise - Amiga.Inc maintains Amiga name for its products and Hyperion gets "Amiga enough" but different name for future computers.


Different. This is the key. And it's true, because they identify different products.

To be more clear, if a name has the "Amiga" work inside, it doesn't mean that this name identify an Amiga. The proof of it is very simple: AmigaOS doesn't mean that you identify an Amiga when you read it, only because it contains it in the name, but it's just the o.s..

Anyway, and to close the branding dispute, I already raised some questions, but, "strangely", nobody replied to them.

I repeat the most important one. If AmigaOne is brand that identify an Amiga, could the latter be used without problems. To be more clear: can the producer of the AmigaOne X500 claim that it's an Amiga, without having the risk to be sued by the owner of the Amiga brand? If the answer is yes, no problem: they can be labeled as Amigas. But if not, you can only PERSONALLY claim that it's an Amiga because "you think so"; despite the reality is very different.

My opinion is that the AmigaOne machines cannot be sold as Amigas. And I've showed that AmigaOne X500 page which accurately doesn't report Amiga in any place: only AmigaOne.

OK, I think that we've written a lot about the argument. There many facts that are on the table. It's only one doubt that needs to be clarify, to put a final end to this eternal discussion.

I'll not reply again until another FACT, which solves the above doubt, will be reported. I doesn't make sense, since the position of each one are well defined.

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number6 
Re: Trevor's Amiga Blog
Posted on 18-Oct-2014 18:33:59
#580 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10624
From: In the village

@cdimauro

Quote:
I'll not reply again until another FACT


Could we at least try to keep those in the thread I linked to in post #573?

It's not about preventing discussion. The thread exists in order to keep all on-topic info in one place for the sake of easier reference for all readers.
As it stands now, this topic gets splattered around in too many threads, where the posts are undoubedly lost for posterity, which is surely not the intent of anyone like yourself who is doing some research.

Thanks.

#6

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