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/  Forum Index
   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Warp3D driver status update
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thellier 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 31-Dec-2012 13:24:56
#21 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 260
From: Paris

@Kicko

Jupp3 was meaning "make a (new) minigl that will do
minigl->mesa3D->gallium3D"
instead of
minigl->Warp3D
(as most of the games/apps/demos call minigl so dont call Warp3D directly so will still works with such a wrapper)

but as gallium3D is not available for OS4 ... so off topic :-/

> "apps/demos/games that requires warp3D normally"
I dont know if there are much os4 apps/demos/games that call Warp3D directly...

Anyway I think that using directly Warp3D is more a true demo-scene-coder way

Alain Thellier - Wazp3D



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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 31-Dec-2012 13:30:46
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 12103
From: Norway

@thellier

Quote:
minigl->mesa3D->gallium3D


That looks like slow implementation, way not just stick every thing on gallium3D, as this is the new low level 3d drivers.

Way not:

mesa3D->gallium3D
minigl->gallium3D
Warp3D->gallium3D

instead of

minigl->Warp3D

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klx300r 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 31-Dec-2012 14:03:34
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 4-Mar-2008
Posts: 3735
From: Toronto, Canada

@Karlos

You're probably right as I have no clue but love the fact progress is being made

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thellier 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 31-Dec-2012 15:09:04
#24 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 260
From: Paris

@NutsAboutAmiga

>That looks like slow implementation, way not just stick every thing on gallium3D
Because minigl and mesa3d are almost the same api (=OpenGL) so doing minigl->mesa3D is almost doing nothing (just convert an Aros library api to an OS4 interface) this kind of wrapping will not use ressources

>mesa3D->gallium3D
This one exist now in Aros
>minigl->gallium3D
much difficult for certainly no speed gain against the minigl->mesa3D->gallium3D solution
>Warp3D->gallium3D
I agree it may be interesting for demo coders .... but very hard to do
Gallium3D is a low level 3D driver so looks like Warp3D
but Gallium3D use shaders for all so will need to write shader-code to implement standard blend functions,fog,zbuffer,gouraud,etc.. to emulate Warp3D

Anyway this is just my opinion and I am not an OS4 dev.... so I just wait & see ...


Alain

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Karlos 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 31-Dec-2012 20:48:03
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 24-Aug-2003
Posts: 2286
From: As-sassin-aaate! As-sassin-aaate! Ooh! We forgot the ammunition!

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:

Way not:

mesa3D->gallium3D
minigl->gallium3D
Warp3D->gallium3D




Unfortunately, it's not that simple. If you transition completely to Gallium3D in the simplistic manner you suggest above, then all those with anything less than R300 are done for.

Personally, I think the way forward is to turn Warp3D into an abstract factory which, depending on the availability of Gallium3D initialises one of two different versions. The existing one for all those with hardware unsupported by Gallium3D and a wrapper version for those with. This would be a library level abstraction. Clients would open Warp3D.library as they do now, but what ultimately ends up implementing the IWarp3D interface is decided internally.

A similar approach could be made for a newer MiniGL implementation, which would either talk to Gallium3D directly or Warp3D, depending on what is available.

Something like this: http://extropia.co.uk/img/os4_concurrent_3d.png

-edit-
It's an old diagram, Cube2 is not a good example application - you'd want to compile that against something like Mesa as an interface to Gallium3D, but I digress. The point is that you provide a replacement for MiniGL that can adapt to either Warp3D or Gallium for applications that aren't statically linked to older versions of it.
-/edit-

Although the diagram suggests multiple layers (to indicate dependency / selection), in reality, an actual implementation could directly patch the library interface such that openers of (new) MiniGL or Warp3D are talking directly to the implementation that was selected when the library was first opened and the check for Gallium3D support was made.

Not that it matters especially as interface calls aren't particularly slow anyway.

Last edited by Karlos on 31-Dec-2012 at 09:17 PM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 5-Feb-2013 20:17:07
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@

A welcome update
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 0:36:32
#27 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Will Warp3D for Radeon HD live up to my expectations ?

Using Windows Passmark 3D scores comparing various Video cards :

Some current cards for a Baseline

Radeon 9250 = 1
Radeon 9800XT= 181

Some Radeon HD cards that will be supported by Warp3D for Radeon HD cards

Radeon HD6350=205
Radeon HD5450=234
Radeon HD6450=293
Radeon HD5550=455
Radeon HD5570=704
Radeon HD6570=748
Radeon HD6670=1043
Radeon HD5670=1056
Radeon HD6770=1667
Radeon HD6850=2213

Some Radeon HD cards in use but not supported by Warp3D for Radeon HD cards

Radeon X1300=138
Radeon HD4350=179
Radeon HD4550=244
Radeon HD4650=349
Radeon HD4670=534
Radeon HD4850=1043
Radeon HD4890=1515

Last edited by Spectre660 on 03-Apr-2013 at 12:47 AM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 03-Apr-2013 at 12:39 AM.
Last edited by Spectre660 on 03-Apr-2013 at 12:37 AM.

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mr2 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 0:45:06
#28 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 691
From: Poland

@Spectre660



What?! My R9250 scored '1', you mean 'one'???

LOL, Im doomed...

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fishy_fis 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 1:45:14
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2004
From: Australia

@Spectre660

Gallium/mesa wont give these sorts of performance figures. In a best case scenario expect somewhere in the middle between warp3d and the figures you've quoted. Also, the best performing cards under gallium/mesa are those that are about 2-3 years old. Theoretical hardware speed doesnt apply here as a gpu needs good driver support, and it takes time to reverse engineer newer hardware.

There's benchmark figures out there if a person is interested enough to check them out, although deduct a little from them as even X1000 is quite slow compared to the sorts of hardware that these benchmarks are typically done with.

Even so, gallium/mesa can give reasonable results that are enough for users of systems whose software base is significantly behind what is available for mainstream systems (ie. no need for the power to play Crysis2/3, etc.).

Last edited by fishy_fis on 03-Apr-2013 at 01:47 AM.

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Seiya 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 2:18:42
#30 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2006
Posts: 1424
From: Italia

here my old test with gallium and nvidia driver on linux mint

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=35363&forum=9#658104

Last edited by Seiya on 03-Apr-2013 at 02:19 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 2:21:51
#31 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@fishy_fis

I do not expect PC performance on Amiga NG machines.
I am gathering data to see the ratio of performace across the various cards in the Windows world. We can then see how it is across the same cards under the new Warp3d drivers and across different OS4.x machines.The big question is how much faster than a Radeon 9250 will a Radeon HD540 be and what level above that will each category of HD5xxx and HD6xxx cards be on Amiga NG machines .

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umisef 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 2:30:59
#32 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1677
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Spectre660

Quote:
I am gathering data to see the ratio of performace across the various cards in the Windows world


Why?

Not only will absolute performance be different between Windows and Warpd3D, but also relative performance.

Warp3D is, essentially, a simple triangle renderer. It supports what 3D cards did roughly 15 years ago.
Modern 3D cards do triangle rendering almost as an afterthought. They spend the vast majority of the resources on stuff that's at a considerably higher level of abstraction, all the way to modelling physics of movement. And, of course, modern 3D benchmarks measure their performance doing those things.

Warp3D won't be making use of any of those resources. So whether a particular card has 5 vertex shaders or 5000 makes no difference whatsoever to Warp3D.

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 2:34:50
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@Seiya

The Geforce FX 5900XT would have a Windows Passmark G3D score of less than 33.

Quote:

Seiya wrote:
here my old test with gallium and nvidia driver on linux mint

Last edited by Spectre660 on 03-Apr-2013 at 02:38 AM.

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fishy_fis 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 2:40:57
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2004
From: Australia

@Spectre660

Sure, but part of my point was that under Gallium/mesa newer doesnt always mean faster. In fact usually newer means slower as drivers havent matured yet.
A geforce 8400gs is much faster than a gf 570gtx under gallium/mesa for example, despite the latter being 5 or so years newer and dozens of times more powerful hardware. The same applies for AMD hardware.

You simply cant make comparisons using mainstream systems as a reference.

edit: ah, sorry, despite warp3d being in the thread title I've been focusing on mesa/gallium.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 03-Apr-2013 at 02:46 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 2:50:51
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@umisef

Thanks for the explanation.

As to the why, I like to compare numbers to keep my mind active.


Quote:

umisef wrote:
@Spectre660

Quote:
I am gathering data to see the ratio of performace across the various cards in the Windows world


Why?

Not only will absolute performance be different between Windows and Warpd3D, but also relative performance.

Warp3D is, essentially, a simple triangle renderer. It supports what 3D cards did roughly 15 years ago.
Modern 3D cards do triangle rendering almost as an afterthought. They spend the vast majority of the resources on stuff that's at a considerably higher level of abstraction, all the way to modelling physics of movement. And, of course, modern 3D benchmarks measure their performance doing those things.

Warp3D won't be making use of any of those resources. So whether a particular card has 5 vertex shaders or 5000 makes no difference whatsoever to Warp3D.

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Plexus 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 7:27:59
#36 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Sep-2003
Posts: 287
From: SWEDEN (Sverige)

@Spectre660

Will Warp3D for Radeon HD live up to my expectations ?

Will Opel Astra 1.6 liters - live up to my expectations???


Ferrari F50 GT1 4.7 V12 year 1996
Formation: V12 | Aspiration: N/A

Transmission: 6 speed/ Manual
Top Speed: 234 mph (376.5 kph)
0 to 60 mph (96.6 kph): 2.9 secs
0 to 100 kph (0-62 mph): 3.0 secs
0 to 100 mph (160.9 kph): 0.0 secs
Power: 750 bhp (559 kW) @ 10500 rpm
Torque: 384 lb-ft (1016.8 Nm) @ 7000 rpm
Kerbweight: 907 kgs (1999 lbs)
Drive: RWD
Engine Location: M
BHP Per Ton: 826.9 bhp
Torque Per Ton: 423.3 lb-ft

Last edited by Plexus on 03-Apr-2013 at 07:29 AM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 11:05:36
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@Plexus

When you get it let me know.
In my case I currently have 5 Radeon HD cards that will support Warp3D for Radeon HD and two NG Sams . So I will be able to see for myself.

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Spectre660 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 20:15:18
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3891
From: Unknown

@mr2

Just out gunned.

By the way do you know how hard it is to find a new pci 9250 dual voltage card now?


Quote:

mr2 wrote:
@Spectre660



What?! My R9250 scored '1', you mean 'one'???

LOL, Im doomed...

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utri007 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 20:43:39
#39 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Aug-2003
Posts: 1041
From: United States of Europe

@Spectre660

I bought mine from Amazon couple months ago, it wasn't hard or expensive.

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mr2 
Re: Warp3D driver status update
Posted on 3-Apr-2013 20:58:28
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 3-Feb-2004
Posts: 691
From: Poland

@Spectre660

Yes Amazon, there are some offers. Some of them are 5V but the rest are dual voltage...

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=9250+pci

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