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   /  Amiga OS4.x \ Workbench 4.x
      /  Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
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broadblues 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 10:41:46
#181 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 20-Jul-2004
Posts: 4427
From: Portsmouth England

@OlafS25

AREXX is not lost.

There was an update to the public version as late as last february. rexxsyslib is now at version 53.4

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TRIPOS 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 11:07:17
#182 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:

Icaros is still based on X86 and that means limit is 4 GByte. As far as I know it is still ahead there because f.e. MorphOS only supports 1 GByte or 1.5 GByte


Well, it's an Amiga thing ; the Amiga has 31-bit addressable RAM, meaning 2GB. Within this space there must be memory reserved for the expansion slots, i.e. PCI (and possibly some reserved for Quark stuff as well, but don't quote me on that). How much memory this requires depends on the hardwaer in question. On most hardware, 0.5GB is needed for this, meaning you will have maximum 1.5GB left.

On a system that doesn't have to follow the Amiga specs and cater for high legacy compatibility, it's easy to go beyond this. There is no problem to have full 32-bit or 64-bit memory space (or SMP etc) if you accept to adapt/recompile all applications for the "new" OS. But if your aim is to provide an Amiga environment as pure and close to the original as possible in order to maximize legacy compatibility and make it possible to run old Amiga applications unchanged, out of the box, then the situation is different.

(And this has little to do with "being ahead" or not, it's just two different approaches that has sprung from different design goals)

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KimmoK 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 11:18:11
#183 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5205
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@OlafS25

> I am personally more interested in 68k (and all related developments) so I do not care much about it .

From 68k I would like to see FPGA 68k + FPGA AGA board to replace my aging classics.
For modern stuff the PPC is good enough (better) for me.
(and AOS4 is not too far away from the original feel, even if it requires improvements ... not sure if improvements are possible with all the legacy stuff)

>I personally do not think that any of our platforms will ever becoming mainstream again...

Neither do I expect that.
But I do not know either what is in the mainstream after a few years.
ChromeOS? Google CPU? GoogleApps?
Are they already the mainstream?

To me it would be enough if we get "some more users". (10 000 active ones would be pretty ok)
(so far AOS that needs a thousand euro dongle might not be the best way ... it's interesting how RPi has sold so well even when it has only 50% of the power of my SAM440 etc... For example with T1022 based system for about eur200 one should have far better possibility to get new users than with our current offerings.)

>Even Linux has not a big standing in the "desktop market" that is dominated by Windows.

One reason is that Linux desktop mimics Windows. Why average user would use Linux when the same sh*t happens also on the real thing and linux does not give any real extra, except being slower as well. (things were different at least with Ubuntu in y2008, not any more)
(+ not needing to learn those other problems after learning windows problems at work)

One should try to be interestingly different and search for emerging niches to grow etc...

About the topic:
-Are we going to have a SMP+64bit+MP AOS5alpha to play with or what?
(my life is so short to wait for fully legacy compatible Amigalike NG OS)

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 12:03:54
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11929
From: Norway

@KimmoK

Quote:
But most of those developers are alive. And PowerUP developers even active in our community.


Some joined the Hyperion team, and some joined the MorphOS team, and some who knows where they are.

Quote:
Yes. That's why I think the AMP implementation could now be taken to next level.
(things like seamless clustering over multiple heterogenous systems would be cool, so far clustering needs good amount of manual work to set up for the user, per application even)


Clustering can be done whit current OS, some has implement something like the SUN RPC, the SUN RPC allows codes to be sent from one computer (node) to another computer (node), then the code is compiled and executed at etch node the result is sent back, when the calculations are done, but anyway the workload has out-way the bandwidth needed.

The thing is that I don't think many in the Amiga community has a need for this kind of thing, network overhead is going to out-way the benefits for most multimedia applications, for scientific application it might have some uses.

At least we need to buy fiber-optic routers then maybe.

Quote:
(btw. on every NG HW, if I see standard MS-DOS like textual printouts when the system boots, 50% of the Amiga feeling is already lost, Amiga had graphical early boot display already in 1990, that kind of should be redone+modernized. yet another reason to have custom HW with our own wickedly fast BIOS etc.)


Well the option move the Kickstart to EEPROM, and people having to re-flash the EEROM when they get OS update, or do you remember the setpatch and all other patches in MC680x0/AmigaOS, to get 64bit device support and so on.

Put the Kickstart on the HD like they did with AmigaOS4, is the only way to be able to upgrade the OS, whit out the risk of having to send the computer for repair or replace EEPROM's.

http://en.kioskea.net/forum/affich-73142-laptop-won-t-boot-after-bios-upgrade

Quote:
To me it does not say it is not SMP etc.


I think they just don't want to put a label on it, I think they like me think its possible put the 2en core to use, anything more I don't know, they have listed a lots of nice stuff but what I don't know what this will apply to some processes and task or all processes and tasks, or if this will be some thing limited to thread or what. Whit out being a beta tester or seeing what they are working on its not possible to say.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2014 at 01:44 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2014 at 01:43 PM.

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megol 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 12:12:20
#185 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 355
From: Unknown

@elwood

Are you a moderator?

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 12:24:58
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11929
From: Norway

@KimmoK

Quote:
it's interesting how RPi has sold so well even when it has only 50% of the power of my SAM440


because Rpi is hobbies and electric enginers dream machine, lots of PINS to connect stuff to, make your own or buy sensors and addons, tiny easy to build into the car as a navigator, robotics.

The Sam440 is simply not as small, and it costs too mutch if you risk blow it up, while hacking and rewiring and doing that kind of stuff.

Quote:
T1022 based system for about eur200 one should have far better possibility to get new users than with our current offerings.)


It this not processor that only has double precipitation FPU instructions, it be dead slow on all normal FPU operations (As the instructions has to be trapped.), the work actually supporting the T1022 might be so much its not going to be so affordable, it be nice if some made PowerPC version of RPI, but most people don't know what AmigaOS is, they know what Linux is.

Shore the T1022 can be interesting from a hobbyist point view if they made it like the Rpi, but the market is not free from competition, the ARM chips are getting a lot of publicity this days, thanks to general public knowing there tablets and phones use this chips.

I don't know how interesting this is for future AmigaOS platform anyway, a PPC whit out FPGA not interesting to classic users, and a low end PPC not interesting to the AmigaOS4 users because it to slow and useless. But might sale a lot out side of the Amiga market as you say.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2014 at 01:05 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2014 at 12:26 PM.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 12:59:20
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11929
From: Norway

@megol

A warning has already been given about off topic posting by the moderators.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=38969&forum=14&start=80&viewmode=flat&order=0#733216

So Elwood is just repeating what moderators have been saying before, to remind people.

The subject is progress of AmigaOS4, not AROS vs MorphOS vs AmigaOS4, not Classic vs NG.

Reading between Yo comment and AmigaDave comment, it sounds to me that AmigaDave wanted this topic to be about only about progress of AmigaOS4, but Yo thinks its fine as long as people are constructive.

So this is a Q+A+S+Q (Questions + Answers + Speculations + and Quotes) or some thing like that.

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OlafS25 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 13:14:38
#188 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5942
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Those who know more will not answer (either not allowed to or not interested to answer) and the rest does not know. So we can only speculate at the end ( just two more weeks ).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 09-May-2014 at 01:15 PM.

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KimmoK 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 14:27:59
#189 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5205
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

@NutsAboutAmiga

>because Rpi is hobbies and electric enginers dream machine, lots of PINS to connect stuff to, make your own or buy sensors and addons, tiny easy to build into the car as a navigator, robotics.

Yep.
Ideally we should have RPi compatible pinout port and insanely good support SW for it on Linux & AROS & AOS & MOS etc..
(and for xena I think we should have had a port that is compatible with existing xcore toys)
(btw. I wonder if minimig+ will have any geeky I/O? RPi port would be cool.)

T1022 has 2*e5500 (1.4Ghz), the same that A-eon is using in Cyrus+, so the core should not give any headache (AmigaOS4 already boots on it, IIRC).
(single core T101x variants are in the pipeline as well, also those could be enough if Pi (+- FPGA GPU) kind of product is going to be made ...)

>ARM chips are getting a lot of publicity this days

Yep.
PPC64-Pi kind of variant's interest would mainly be in the different core (64bit core, nice PCIe, etc) and propably some power.org people would be interested in it. It would not be yet another ARM SBC (I believe the amount of ARM SBC variants for nerds starts to near 100).


UPDATE, bios & ROM & kickstart
"Put the Kickstart on the HD like they did with AmigaOS4, is the only way to be able to upgrade the OS, whit out the risk of having to send the computer for repair or replace EEPROM's."

Modern motherboards BIOS can be reflashed without sending the computer to repair.

And IIRC, x1000 already has kickstart on a memory card.

In some products (non-Amiga) there already is modified Uboot variants that only launch main OS kernell (residing on SD card / SSD drive, as an example) and the main OS later figures out the rest, speeding up booting a lot, no waiting of HDD spinup etc.
(user still can enter to boot options and boot to some other installed os in the old fashioned slow way.)

Last edited by KimmoK on 19-May-2014 at 09:20 AM.

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Vistaus 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 17:30:16
#190 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-Jul-2013
Posts: 332
From: Unknown

Regarding OS 4.2: I currently have 4.1 Update 6 on my AONE500, running awesome-ly :) When 4.2 comes out, will I be able to upgrade from 4.1 to 4.2? I assume it's gonna cost me money, which is okay. But I mean: I don't have to re-install everything?

P.S.: yes, I know most of you don't have information on 4.2, but most of you did go from 4.0 to 4.1, I presume so maybe you could tell me about that upgrade?

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kamelito 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 18:08:35
#191 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 26-Jul-2004
Posts: 776
From: Unknown

@broadblues

IIRC it still 68k, I don't think they got the right to make it PPC but I'd like to be proven wrong. So it's not as fast as it can be.

Kamelito

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pavlor 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 18:20:30
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9255
From: Unknown

@Vistaus

4.1 was new install (not upgrade of older 4.x). I expect 4.2 will be the same.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 9-May-2014 20:58:24
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11929
From: Norway

@Vistaus

Quote:
But I mean: I don't have to re-install everything?


I never do, I make backup of my System volume (Workbench:) some where safe (on different HD/USB/External HD)
programs I have on a different volume (Work:) so they don't get lost.

Most program will work after re-installing the OS whit out doing anything (no dependencies), some program will need special fonts or prefs files or libraries or MUI classes that was on old system, simply coping the missing files back from the backup solves the problem, (be careful not to replace new files whit old files.) I use snoopy to check if some thing is missing if the program does not start.

So re-installing programs after re-installing the OS should not be needed, (if you made a backup of the old system first.)

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 09-May-2014 at 09:00 PM.

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JosDuchIt 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 19-May-2014 7:14:42
#194 ]
Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2010
Posts: 12
From: Unknown

@Vistaus


Quote:
Why not a more low-level language like Python?

it's a very easy-to-learn language which could attract even some current AOS users w/o coding skills to start working on some simple apps.


That definition applies still more to Gui4Cli
(Gui for CLI-commands)
which has
- gui editing by drag & drop
- a basic like language
- possibility of adressing any Gui4Cli app directly through arexx (no need to add your own port)

- of course the possibility to launch (new or exisitng) scripts in any other language (python)
in 3 modes (run (asynchronous), cli (synchronous) , launch (asynchronous with a
- easy interaction with system
- lots of examples in the basic archives
- All needed information in one .guide manual. (btw translated in dutch mostly)

The OS3 version works well under AOS4.1 and the OS4.1 version continues to be developed.

If users with no programming skills want to get the kick of seeing they really can learn it quickly, what are they waiting for?

http://users.online.be/AD/
my blogs on
http://www.os4coding.net/

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olegil 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 19-May-2014 8:45:30
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@KimmoK


Quote:
T1022 based system for about eur200 one should have far better possibility to get new users than with our current offerings.)


It this not processor that only has double precipitation FPU instructions, it be dead slow on all normal FPU operations (As the instructions has to be trapped.), the work actually supporting the T1022 might be so much its not going to be so affordable


Same core as the P50xx, which is already supported by AmigaOS. So no, and no. A quick check with Google would have answered this for you, rather than jumping into the discussion with assumptions.

Recent cores from Freescale:
e500v1/v2: reduced FPU (low-end Pxxxx)
e500mc: full FPU at half of core speed (mid to high end Pxxxx)
e5500: full FPU at full speed (64 bit Pxxxx and low-end Txxxx)
e6500: full FPU at full speed, plus Altivec (also SMT, but this is just for load/store/branch/integer and simple fixed-point instructions. Mid to high end Txxxx).

Edit: Added something about where you'll expect to find the various cores.

Last edited by olegil on 19-May-2014 at 08:47 AM.

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redfox 
Re: Any progress updates for AmigaOS4.x???
Posted on 19-May-2014 16:02:51
#196 ]
Super Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 1883
From: Canada

@Vistaus

I assume OS4.2 will follow the same route as OS4.1.

We had to purchase OS4.1 ... It came on official CD with a manual.

When I upgraded from OS4.0 to OS4.1, I did a backup of my SYS: partition, followed by quick format and clean install of OS4.2 from CD.

Most of my applications were in a different partition and worked fine with OS4.2.

IMHO it is a good idea to make backups. I have all my applications on CD-R and keep current backups of all my scripts, settings, and work files. This was very helpful when I had to rebuild my system after my hard drive croaked from old age. It had spent many years in a PC followed by many years in my OS4 system.

---
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Last edited by redfox on 19-May-2014 at 04:18 PM.

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