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PosterThread
TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:10:46
#181 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
And the Amiga Inc Hyperion agreement explicitly stipulates that Hyperion DOES NOT(!!!) own the source 3.1 source code, which is kind of funny!


Exclusive licence...


Right to use. But not ownership. Granted by Amiga Inc.

The difference becomes very obvious in a number of legal situations.

And to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced Amiga Inc had any mandate to make such grants in the first place...

Quote:
Quote:
The 3.1 sources are Cloanto's sources!


First, there is no proof it is so.


It is Cloanto's formal, public claim. And my guess is that they have their papers in order, their skills in copyright detective work is proven time and time again. And I'm pretty sure that if necessary they will smack anyone contradicting this in a formal dispute with all the proof needed!

http://amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2015-02-00027-EN.html

Quote:
Second, Hyperion´s licence to OS3 sources is EXCLUSIVE.


They have an agreement with Amiga Inc saying that they have an exclusive right to use the sources, and the agreement also explicitly stipulates that Hyperion DOES NOT own anything 3.1 related ("the Software").

Cloanto are the owners of 3.1 (and earlier version, and the later version they call 3.X that they have continued to expand and improve for many years now).

Quote:
Third, if (still hypothetical) transfer of ownership of OS3 souces was realised after 2009 Settlement Agreement, Cloanto would be bound by it (sources would be then of no use).


Fourth quarter of 2014: Cloanto releases Workbench 3.1 disks with the following updates/enhancements:

- Updated C/Version (Y2K patch)
- Addition of Libs/workbench.library (for A-4000T 3.1 ROMs and 3.X ROMs)
- Updated S/Startup-Sequence (for 3.X ROMs)
- Updated Installer 44.10 and FastFileSystem 45.9 (to support larger disks)
- Installer itself is now part of the system installation (inside the Utilities directory)

Well look at that. A new, updated version of 3.1 released in 2014. By Cloanto. The exclusive OWNER of the OS for Amiga's.

Last edited by TRIPOS on 03-May-2015 at 08:55 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:16:07
#182 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
And to be honest, I'm not entirely convinced Amiga Inc had any mandate to make such grants in the first place...


If you see your point was hollow, you try another way. Good.

Quote:
It is Cloanto's formal, public claim.


Nothing about OS sources there...

Quote:
Cloanto are the owners of 3.1 (and earlier version, and the later version they call 3.X that they have continued to expand and improve for many years now).


Nothing against that.

Quote:
Third quarter of 2014: Cloanto releases Workbench 3.1 disks with the following updates/enhancements:


It seems like new distribution of old licenced components, rather than something build from OS3.1 sources (eg. in 3.9BB2 was Installer 44.11, not 44.10 like there...).

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cgutjahr 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:22:02
#183 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

Quote:

So we can only be sure Cloanto owns Kickstart up to version 2.04.

Nothing about source code...

The US Copyright Office says Cloanto owns the copyright to Kickstart 2.04. You apparantly don't understand what that means, otherwise you wouldn't be asking about "source code".

2.04 is Cloanto's property. Period.

Quote:

Again, nothing about 3.1 source code.

Their updated 3.1 distribution contains (amongst other things) an updated version of c:version. They're also distributing this, and here's a description of 3.X included with Amiga Forever.

How's any of this possible unless Cloanto has rights to modify and distribute 3.1?

Quote:

Quote:

Ben Hermans didn't publicly oppose their claims

Why he should?

Why would I know? I only know he usually did, so him not doing it in this case is evidence.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:22:09
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@pavlor

you are speculating too now

You want to believe certain things too

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-May-2015 at 04:23 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:23:33
#185 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@TRIPOS

to clarify: it is another Olaf not me




Quote:
interesting... that would mean the heritage (except "Amiga" in name) is based on post-Commodore time


Yes indeed!

Workbench 1.0
Workbench 1.1
Workbench 1.2
Workbench 1.3
Workbench 2.0
Workbench 2.04
Workbench 2.05
Workbench 2.1
Workbench 3.0
Workbench 3.1
Workbench 3.X

That's your lineage, right there. The [reeel!!1!] original source code. And the [reeel!!1!] name!

Anything called "Amiga OS" is forked and not the official Workbench, as it turned out, hehe...

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:25:46
#186 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Their updated 3.1 distribution contains (amongst other things) an updated version of c:version. They're also distributing this, and here's a description of 3.X included with Amiga Forever.


But these are all old components (some even older than 3.9BB2)!

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:26:10
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
you are speculating too now


Talk is cheap.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:32:25
#188 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
(eg. in 3.9BB2 was Installer 44.11, not 44.10 like there...).


But "AmigaOS 3.9" was a fork made by the third party publisher Haage&Partner (and AFAIK both are dead/obsolete now)! Maybe you should have a look at the official Workbench 3.X instead? I'm sure AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS and AROS has their own versions for various OS components as well, right?

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cgutjahr 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:41:25
#189 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

But these are all old components (some even older than 3.9BB2)!

What's that got to do with anything? I'm just saying there's plenty of evidence that Cloanto has the rights to modify 3.1 if they feel like it.

I never claimed Cloanto has access to any 4.x modules - they would have to license these from their respective authors first (provided said authors did not license them exclusively to Hyperion, which is unlikely). But as I stated repeatedly, that's unlikely to happen IMHO, for a several reasons.

Could we all ignore takemehomegrandma, please? He's banned, isn't he? And, as usual, he's making it hard to follow the actual discussion.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 16:45:19
#190 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
What's that got to do with anything? I'm just saying there's plenty of evidence that Cloanto has the rights to modify 3.1 if they feel like it.


I never disputed their right to modify 3.x distribution. I disputed their control over OS sources.

Quote:
Could we all ignore takemehomegrandma, please?


OK.

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damocles 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:00:29
#191 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2007
Posts: 1719
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Why not Amiga OS 3.1.1?

_________________
Dammy

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cgutjahr 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:22:53
#192 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

I never disputed their right to modify 3.x distribution. I disputed their control over OS sources.

Then you need to be more precise what "control" is supposed to mean.

Can they distribute 3.1? Check.
Can they modify the scope of the distribution? Check.
Can they modify actual 3.1 modules? Check.

If I can distribute a modified C:version command that means I have the sources, I have the right to modify them and I have the right to distribute the modification. What kind of "control" are you missing in this context?

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Rob 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:23:02
#193 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6079
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

Quote:
Commodore died before any AmigaOS 3.1 was sold as a stand-alone product (a custom version for CD32 aside). It's as simple as that.


Yeah, I know the history but it's still funny to see you scramble to say OS4 isn't "teh rael" after all these years.

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:27:44
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5941
From: Unknown

@Rob

and it is as funny to see how important "heritage" is on the other side. If I remember right even Haage & Partner is mentioned as one of the AmigaOS contributors that is certainly not true just to proof the heritage.

here:
http://www.amigaos.net/content/11/credits

it is at least misleading because Haage&Partner has certainly not contributed to 4.X but if you do not know you could think that

All for "heritage"

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-May-2015 at 05:34 PM.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:38:10
#195 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Can they distribute 3.1? Check.


Not disputed.

Quote:
Can they modify the scope of the distribution? Check.


Not disputed.

Quote:
Can they modify actual 3.1 modules? Check.


Not disputed (if meant change for another).

Quote:
If I can distribute a modified C:version command that means I have the sources


It could be version command from 3.9 (like other components).

Quote:
What kind of "control" are you missing in this context?


Source codes.

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cgutjahr 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:47:08
#196 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 950
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

Source codes.

I asked you to be more precise, you just repeated what you already stated a dozen times.

Are you concerned if they have access to the sources (in a technical, not a legal sense)? Everybody has that, as the sources were leaked to the warez scene in 1997.

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number6 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 17:50:10
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@cgutjahr

Quote:
I asked you to be more precise, you just repeated what you already stated a dozen times.


Yep. I'm confused too.

Perhaps by control he means absolute control preventing anyone else from touching the sources. *shrug*

#6

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 18:00:53
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@cgutjahr

Quote:
Are you concerned if they have access to the sources (in a technical, not a legal sense)?


In both technical and legal sense. My English is rather bad, sorry.

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pavlor 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 18:02:27
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9252
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
Perhaps by control he means absolute control preventing anyone else from touching the sources. *shrug*


No, not at all. I meant: they can legaly use OS sources, or not?

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 3-May-2015 18:09:13
#200 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@number6

If Cloanto gets his rights from Amiga Inc. then they can
use it only for emulation not making use on REAL computer
as real OS (think of AmigaDE or AmigaEnywhere and compare
to Amiga Forever).

Only one that "owns" all AmigaOSes (the old REAL!!!111) ones
is Hyperion , trademarks are trademarks , source codes are
source codes , you can get trademark or source code but getting
one doesn't give you another automatic.

Hyperion has all rights but "bare" ownership (think about this like this
you have a car and can do what you want with it but the only thing you
can't do it is sell it as owner , you can rent it though).

Hyperion has Kick 3.1 which arguably (but not so much) is the same as
having same license for all previous ones up to Kick 0.1 if it ever existed.

So if Cloanto made new updated WorkbenchTM it could only use it for
emulation (even transparent).This is what documents show.

Who owns more rights ? HYPERION !

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