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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 20:53:15
#241 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@number6

Well , having the same attorney as Couri family might
get you some business weight so I see no reason for
Bill not to hire him if he was given the chance.

As for debts of Amiga Inc. I'm pretty sure that even the
most persistent followers of their claims might have
already wrote them off.

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jorit2 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:04:23
#242 ]
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Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Since you seem to share the assumption that the Settlement Agreement is complete and correct ... you also go along with the assumption, as stated in the Settlement Agreement that Amiga was the owner at the time.

In other words, with the settlement agreement as a reference, Cloanto must have acquired the rights they claim, from Amiga Inc.

You may want to look at the Settlement Agreement again, it states kinda unequivocally the terms under which a sale of assets by Amiga (including the Collateral) can occur. It doesn't leave too much room for interpretation.

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 04-May-2015 at 09:09 PM.

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number6 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:04:30
#243 ]
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Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@blizz1220

Quote:
As for debts of Amiga Inc. I'm pretty sure that even the
most persistent followers of their claims might have
already wrote them off.


Forgive me. I guess I'm not being clear here.

Kouri paid for AmigaOS4, therefore since he didn't receive said AmigaOS4, there is a debt. Since Pentti passed away, this debt is to the family/family trust.
Since Darren still acted for their interests as well as the interests of Amiga Inc., this really isn't something being written off.

That's why I mentioned before that buying Amiga Inc. is more than just buying Amiga Inc. as a company.

@TripOS

That's Evert Carton formerly of Hyperion Entertainment and obviously aware of the settlement agreement details. But go ahead and continue to prove why your theory holds more weight than his opinion of his own settlement agreement. Heh.

#6

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:11:17
#244 ]
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Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@number6

I'll take your word for it but I doubt that money or AmigaOS4
will ever be given back to those who paid (and they would get
how much of the investment 1.5 % ? ).

@Jorik2

You hinted twice that settlement might not be legally correct
in all it's aspects (erroneous).You got me worried now :)

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eliyahu 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:12:17
#245 ]
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Joined: 3-Mar-2010
Posts: 1869
From: Waterbury, Connecticut (USA)

@number6

Quote:
That's Evert Carton formerly of Hyperion Entertainment and obviously aware of the settlement agreement details. But go ahead and continue to prove why your theory holds more weight than his opinion of his own settlement agreement. Heh.

comedy gold!

-- eliyahu

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number6 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:13:40
#246 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@blizz1220

Quote:
I'll take your word for it but I doubt that money or AmigaOS4
will ever be given back to those who paid (and they would get
how much of the investment 1.5 % ? ).


I understand that reality.

Perhaps it was you? but we mentioned the term "negotiating point" before. What they want and what they get are 2 different things, yes.

#6

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:29:01
#247 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@number6

Well to complicate things further

In what form was money given by Couri to Amiga Inc.
and can anyone find that contract for me to look at ?

I'm speculating wildly but if Mr. Couri was investor and all
that was promised at the side of A.Inc. was that final Amiga
OS 4 (be it Morphos or Hyperion's AOS4) will be delivered
"when it's done" or even worst "if it's done" and without
putting his own money and estate as collateral then Bil
could possibly have a very nice way to say sorry to investor
and get off the hook.

@TRIPOS

Court settlement and court verdict have same legal power ,
and no later contracts between Amiga Inc. and Cloanto could
go against that unless they just wanted for someone to sue them
in which case they would loose (source : publicly revealed legal
stuff).

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jorit2 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:30:18
#248 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@blizz1220

Quote:

@Jorik2
You hinted twice that settlement might not be legally correct
in all it's aspects (erroneous).You got me worried now :)


Hineininterpretierung I guess

I simply wanted to emphasize the premise under which I made my posts.
Sorry if that didn't come across as I intended.

Either way ... whether you question it or not, the agreement does stipulate the terms Amiga Inc and Hyperion committed too. Both parties agreed to this, in other words it does control the terms under which Amiga Inc may sell assets.

Evert

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:33:18
#249 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@jorit2

Ah sorry , back to normal now :)

Thank you for any scrap of info on the matter

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number6 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:34:59
#250 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@blizz1220

Quote:
In what form was money given by Couri to Amiga Inc.
and can anyone find that contract for me to look at ?


All pertinent docs are direct linked at:

http://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/

btw-an addition to the site was made recently that is more to the Cloanto topic:

Quote:
At the Saku 2014 event in Finland, Cloanto president Mr. Mike Battilana described [228] how the 1997 agreements opened the door and "allowed to build on that license and later slowly acquire some things".


#6

Last edited by number6 on 04-May-2015 at 09:37 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:51:27
#251 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@jorit2

Quote:
Since you seem to share the assumption that the Settlement Agreement is complete and correct ... you also go along with the assumption, as stated in the Settlement Agreement that Amiga was the owner at the time. In other words, with the settlement agreement as a reference, Cloanto must have acquired the rights they claim, from Amiga Inc.


They probably acquired it from Amiga Inc, if they were the owners (and if there were any doubts, or more than one rights holder, they probably made deals with everyone imaginable in their usual "carpet bombing" strategy of securing legal rights from any and all involved parties, as we have seen in their "Workbench 3.X" building process).

But the only way "the settlement agreement" would have any impact at all in this discussion, is if Amiga Inc made Cloanto sign a contract to honor what that piece of paper stipulates. And again, maybe they did, and if so, I bet my left pinkie-toe that Cloanto will honor it to the letter. Because they are the honest guys here, the good guys. But if they didn't, they are in no way bound to its contents, since they are not part of that agreement.

It was an agreement between Amiga Inc and Hyperion, nobody else!

Quote:
You may want to look at the Settlement Agreement again, it states kinda unequivocally the terms under which a sale of assets by Amiga (including the Collateral) can occur. It doesn't leave too much room for interpretation.


But again, it's only a contract between two parties, not a common law for everyone to follow. If one party is pissed off at the other for any reason, then sue them. But any third party (that never was bound by the agreement) is obviously out of reach.

And have a look at this:

1) "Amiga Inc. owns the domain name amiga.com as well as all remaining Amiga-related trademarks (partial list, PDF). They do have a license from Cloanto for their activities on the BlackBerry platform, but no license for any other platforms." Link.

Amiga Inc has to ACQUIRE 3.1 licenses from Cloanto!(!!!) And they have been granted a license for their activities on the Blackberry platform, but not for any other platform. What does this tell you? They DON'T have the rights to 3.1 (or "the software" as your "settlement contract" calls it) any more. It's NOT theirs. They have to ask Cloanto in order to use it! And it turns out Cloanto has been issuing at least one license (to Amiga Inc).

2) Cloanto put to market an updated release of the OS version 3.1 (now called Workbench 3.1) in October last year. They released it in several forms. They seemed to be free enough to do so! Probably because they are not bound by any deals whatsoever that Hyperion might have with Amiga Inc, since they are not par of any such deals.

Both sub-licensing the IP to a customer, AND a new updated OS release on the open market based on what you call "the software", the IP that was "esclusively licensed to Hyperion by Amiga Inc".

Both these things suggests (at least in my eyes) that Cloanto does not feel particularly bound by the contract Hyperion has with Amiga Inc. And why should they? They were never part of that agreement, never signed that contract.

This is the point I'm trying to make! Do you see it now?

The Amiga Inc < - > Hyperion settlement was a contract made between... well, Amiga Inc and Hyperion! And no-one else! Third parties can never be liable or bound by contracts they are not part of. It's as simple as that!


@number6

Quote:
That's Evert Carton formerly of Hyperion Entertainment and obviously aware of the settlement agreement details. But go ahead and continue to prove why your theory holds more weight than his opinion of his own settlement agreement. Heh.


I know perfectly well who jorit2 / Evert Carton is, thank you. Don't go get starstruck now. Heh.

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jorit2 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 21:54:26
#252 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 243
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:

Cloanto is probably the least "crooks" in the entire Amiga community, they are the definition of honesty and good will.


I never said the contrary ...

Anyway my post was not about condemning or judging, it was merely about injecting some more ideas/input about the situation, starting from a document I happen to be somewhat familiar with, and one that is at least somewhat relevant, even more so since this is not a simple agreement, this is court stipulated ...
(thx blizz1220 for emphasizing this, so obvious i forgot to mention it)

Evert

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number6 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:03:20
#253 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@TRIPOS

Quote:
And it turns out Cloanto has been issuing at least one license (to Amiga Inc


For what? Sorry, but if this ties in with what I attempt to report re:WRIT/AmigaGamesInc./RetroInfinity and something I missed that is relevant, I'd like to add it.

Nevermind. You were referring to blackberry.

#6

Last edited by number6 on 04-May-2015 at 10:07 PM.
Last edited by number6 on 04-May-2015 at 10:04 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:15:24
#254 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1154
From: Unknown

@jorit2

Quote:

jorit2 wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:

Cloanto is probably the least "crooks" in the entire Amiga community, they are the definition of honesty and good will.


I never said the contrary ...

Anyway my post was not about condemning or judging, it was merely about injecting some more ideas/input about the situation, starting from a document I happen to be somewhat familiar with, and one that is at least somewhat relevant, even more so since this is not a simple agreement, this is court stipulated ...
(thx blizz1220 for emphasizing this, so obvious i forgot to mention it)

Evert


... but ... it ... is ... between ... ... ... (drum roll) ... ... ... Amiga Inc and Hyperion!

Not anyone else! And it's a license agreement between those two entities ONLY. It is in no way a common law for everyone to follow. If Hyperion would be unhappy about how Amiga Inc fulfills their end of the bargain, well, talk to Amiga Inc, or take them to court in a law-suit! Maybe you will find a heart beat in some low cost rent-a-file-cabinet in the Caribbean somewhere...

Workbench 3.1 however, is now in the hands of Cloanto.

Maybe Hyperion should ask them politely for permission/license to use it as a base for some derivative work? Just to be sure?

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OlafS25 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:16:49
#255 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5934
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

my last lections in law are some time ago but

If I think right there is A (Hyperion) has a settlement (=contract) with B (AmigaInc.). B has a contract with C (Cloanto). If contract between B and C was signed after the contract between A and B the settlement is of course relevant for the new contract, if the contract was signed before settlement and Cloanto got all rights and freedom to do what they want then it would certainly depend on if AmigaInc. really had the rights to act this way.

That all is only guess and personal amateur basic knowledge from years ago, it might be different from country to country and it depends on the legal situation. All we cannot judge.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 04-May-2015 at 10:18 PM.

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Boot_WB 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:18:17
#256 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@number6

Quote:

number6 wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
And it turns out Cloanto has been issuing at least one license (to Amiga Inc


Nevermind. You were referring to blackberry.

#6


Indeed, this falls squarely within Cloanto's known pre-existing license to use it for emulation purposes, and also suggests that license gives them the right to sublicense (obviously)

Last edited by Boot_WB on 04-May-2015 at 10:20 PM.

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:18:51
#257 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:
ll pertinent docs are direct linked at:
http://sites.google.com/site/amigadocuments/
btw-an addition to the site was made recently tha
t is more to the Cloanto topic:


I just went casually through this and this tells me
that Couris weren't just investing bystanders.They
even worked in some of Bill companies and at some
point took his CEO place.

I can speculate that since it was Bill loosing money there too
,in legal eyes, it would be really complicated to say if he
still owns anything legally to Couri estate.

So can you tell me @Number6 are there any debts to be
paid to Couri estate by Amiga Inc. ? (my eyes hurt )

Last edited by blizz1220 on 04-May-2015 at 10:21 PM.

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:25:07
#258 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS
Cloanto Amiga Inc. agreement we are talking about could
have only come later if settlement is correct.Otherwise it
would be mentioned there as limitation on Amiga Inc. side
but also as limitation for Hyperion.

Since it isn't I'll trust official word of the court for now.

Last edited by blizz1220 on 04-May-2015 at 10:31 PM.

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blizz1220 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:25:50
#259 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

double post

Last edited by blizz1220 on 04-May-2015 at 10:26 PM.
Last edited by blizz1220 on 04-May-2015 at 10:26 PM.

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number6 
Re: Amiga name, assets and IP today: how much is worth?
Posted on 4-May-2015 22:30:28
#260 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 11259
From: In the village

@Boot_WB

Quote:
Indeed, this falls squarely within Cloanto's known pre-existing license to use it for emulation purposes, and also suggests that license gives them the right to sublicense (obviously)


We are in danger of crossing over into discussing off-the-front-page stuff now. Heh. Obviously it's that other little license that would have made things easier for the WRIT fellas.

@blizz1220

Quote:
So can you tell me @Number6 are there any debts to be
paid to Couri estate by Amiga Inc. ? (my eyes hurt )


Kouri, not Couri btw.

Honestly, the way the company has acted since I've been here, I've seen the most nefarious if not downright dishonest ways to avoid debt put into practice. That's why I wrote a lot about unpaid developers while hopefully expressing MUCH disgust. All of this is well documented on AW.

So, since I don't trust any statement made about willingness or desire to pay debts, I'll sadly have to tell you I don't trust any information I receive on the Kouri topic either. Zero credibility in my book. I feel sorry for his family.

#6




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