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      /  WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 2-Aug-2014 22:07:27
#21 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@phoenixkonsole

Quote:
If i multiplicate 729*3(because it was nearly 3 times faster) i get roughly 2.2GHZ g3 with a i7 4790k.

Quote:
The Wii uses a similar to ATI9250 GPU which should come handy.


Even with low-power CPU (laptop) it could deliver G3 1 GHz class performance (eg. like A1-500), support for 3D GFX is nice bonus.

Quote:
now the question is when offers 1/10 more value than the real thing.


For some people, never. Emulation simply is not "the real thing".

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wawa 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 2-Aug-2014 22:12:01
#22 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:
@itix

Quote:
I think their brand is better than AmigaOne brand


For Amiga user? I don´t think so.


for me as amiga user names like sam, amigaone, pegasos or whatever are completely meaningless. for me morphos, os4 or aros might run on whatever hardware it wouldnt make any difference.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 2-Aug-2014 22:15:30
#23 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
for me as amiga user names like sam, amigaone


Well, I clearly see Amiga in AmigaOne name.

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phoenixkonsole 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 2-Aug-2014 22:17:30
#24 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Nov-2009
Posts: 1758
From: Unknown

@pavlor
Than don't call it emulation : )
I have a mini loader ready which theoretically could fit as payload into a BIOS Rom.
That way you would think that there is no emulation involved.

Make a mainboard with integrated catweazel and you are done.
Of course as soon a user would try native aros he would not go back to os4 : p (kidding)

_________________
AROS Broadway - AEROS - Aminux - AmiCloud - indieGO! Appstore - AmiWallet - VAN lossless video codec - AMC Amiga media Center -KrypUnite - LibertyNet - MinX - amigaNX

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wawa 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 2-Aug-2014 22:19:06
#25 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@pavlor

and where is amiga in "sam" or "pegasos" ? or do you want to imply that those running os4 on those machines belong to some other inferior class of people?

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 2-Aug-2014 22:44:40
#26 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
and where is amiga in "sam" or "pegasos" ? or do you want to imply that those running os4 on those machines belong to some other inferior class of people?




Did you read our discussion with phoenixkonsole? My point was: Although lower-end OS4 market would be affected by possible PowerPC emulation, there are still people willing to pay for dedicated Amiga branded computers.

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matthey 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 3:58:32
#27 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 655
From: Kansas

Quote:

hotrod wrote:
I don't know if I'm right or wrong but the feeling that I've had for some time now is that things are not going as Hyperion had hoped or wanted it to. I might be completely wrong so don't be mad if I am, it's just a feeling. What I'm thinking is that maybe they've contacted him and wanted this since he said that it would never happen but suddenly changed his mind? It would make sense because AOS isn't gaining new people.

Just a thought. If it's good or bad I don't know but "I got a bad feeling about this".


Well, let's see. UAE PPC with AmigaOS 4.x could allow:

1) ECS and AGA Amiga chipset compatibility
2) fast Windows and Macintosh compatibility
3) laptops for AmigaOS 4.x
4) cheaper low end AmigaOS 4.x computers
5) Macintosh PPC computers to use UAE+real PPC
6) Wii, PS3 and XBoX to use UAE+real PPC
7) virtualization capabilities with multiple operating systems
8) multiple cores/threads to be used
9) more memory to be used
10) more hardware options

Toni has opened up all these opportunities for AmigaOS 4.x. Tight fisted and controlling Hyperion has nothing to worry about .

Last edited by matthey on 03-Aug-2014 at 04:04 AM.

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Hans 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 5:00:40
#28 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4915
From: New Zealand

@phoenixkonsole

Quote:

phoenixkonsole wrote:
@pavlor
Yep.. now the question is when offers 1/10 more value than the real thing.

If i multiplicate 729*3(because it was nearly 3 times faster) i get roughly 2.2GHZ g3 with a i7 4790k.

The Wii uses a similar to ATI9250 GPU which should come handy.


JIT emulation can play all sorts of tricks on performance benchmarks, so I'd be very wary of drawing such conclusions.

Hans

_________________
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https://keasigmadelta.com/ - More of my work.

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itix 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 6:34:53
#29 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Dec-2004
Posts: 3398
From: Freedom world

@pavlor

I doubt it. I think majority of OS4 users are using SAM or Pegasos 2. A1-500 is very rare and by numbers AmigaOne users are minority. And the brand name loyalty has its limits. If there are users who ditch OS4 there are users who ditch dedicated AmigaOne hardware. It is the OS an the AmigaOS name that matters anyway. Everything else is just small extra.

But it depends on how fast WinUAE can execute PPC code if ever. We dont know yet.

_________________
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Amiga 500, Efika, Mac Mini and PowerBook

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 7:30:29
#30 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
I doubt it. I think majority of OS4 users are using SAM or Pegasos 2.


But that is what I wrote in my post 10:

If emulated CPU is fast enough (and it seems PearPC core is), it would certainly destroy low-end OS4 hardware market.

Quote:
But it depends on how fast WinUAE can execute PPC code if ever. We dont know yet.


Exactly.

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matthey 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 8:37:08
#31 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 655
From: Kansas

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
If emulated CPU is fast enough (and it seems PearPC core is), it would certainly destroy low-end OS4 hardware market.

Quote:
But it depends on how fast WinUAE can execute PPC code if ever. We dont know yet.


Exactly.


Even if the WinUAE PPC emulator can't execute code fast enough on non-PPC processors, cheaper existing PPC computers (PPC Macs and consoles) can be made to use the existing PPC processor at full speed or nearly full speed. Who is going to pay $1000 for a SAM when they can buy a G4 Macintosh for $100? Plus the AmigaOS 4.x classic version is cheaper (and just went up in value). Plus UAE can seamlessly emulate the ECS+AGA Amiga chipset and WarpOS. Also, a UAE+AmigaOS 4.x+ G5 Mac could potentially outperform an Amiga X1000 for a fraction of the price. It is not just the low end OS4 market that is threatened, but the whole OS4 market and Hyperion marketing model.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 8:53:46
#32 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@matthey

Quote:
cheaper existing PPC computers (PPC Macs and consoles) can be made to use the existing PPC processor at full speed or nearly full speed


How?

Quote:
Also, a UAE+AmigaOS 4.x+ G5 Mac could potentially outperform an Amiga X1000 for a fraction of the price.


There is no such solution. Toni just want to add PowerPC emulation to WinUAE, not to port OS4 to PowerPC Mac. I repeat, it is PowerPC on x86 emulation, not some kind of virtualisation on PowerPC (like ShapeShifter on 68k, or SheepShaver on PowerPC was).

Quote:
It is not just the low end OS4 market that is threatened, but the whole OS4 market and Hyperion marketing model.


Not yet.

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OlafS25 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 8:57:19
#33 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5668
From: Unknown

@Pavlor

"Not yet" how you wrote

WinUAE is base for most other UAE emulations like FS-UAE and others. So "changes" he is doing now will certainly be ported. Matthey should have wrote "potential threat for...".

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:06:20
#34 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
So "changes" he is doing now will certainly be ported


Sure, but not in sense of some clever virtualisation on PowerPC based Macs (although that wouldn´t be bad).

Is there any such open-source CPU virtualisation solution for PowerPC? As for emulators: PearPC (as tried by Toni now) supports only x86, Dolphin x86 and ARM. QEMU has support for many host CPU architectures, but not in sense of virtualisation in case of PowerPC.

Note: OS4 needs also PowerPC MMU. If desired emulation solution doesn´t support this, OS4 will not run.

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OlafS25 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:11:20
#35 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5668
From: Unknown

@pavlor

if you google both PearPC + MMU you get hits so I would say yes. It was developed to emulate Apple PPC hardware on X86 and I do not think that Mac OS worked without MMU

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amigang 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:28:24
#36 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jan-2005
Posts: 1476
From: Cheshire, England

I kinda always thought he had to do it at some point as really he was running out of things that need to be emulated on UAE. Best of luck with the project.

_________________
AmigaNG, YouTube, LeaveReality Studio

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:29:20
#37 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Apple PPC hardware on X86 and


Yes, that is what I say - PPC hardware emulation on x86, NOT PowerPC virtualisation on PowerPC. I fear my English language skills are weak.

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OlafS25 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:35:19
#38 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5668
From: Unknown

@pavlor

I think that the full PearPC package is a kind of emulation of the Apple PC hardware like some of the amiga emulators emulating a complete PC. Toni takes the CPU part from it (not the full package).

Last edited by OlafS25 on 03-Aug-2014 at 09:36 AM.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:45:05
#39 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9081
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
Toni takes the CPU part from it (not the full package).


Exactly. matthey´s point was to use such impoved UAE on PowerPC Macs to run OS4 - nonesense in case of PearPC CPU core.

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matthey 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 3-Aug-2014 9:53:44
#40 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 655
From: Kansas

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@matthey

Quote:
cheaper existing PPC computers (PPC Macs and consoles) can be made to use the existing PPC processor at full speed or nearly full speed


How?


Making PPC code execute near full speed on a real PPC processor is simpler than coding a PPC emulator. Some PPC processors would need patching while others would need practically no changes.

Quote:

Quote:
Also, a UAE+AmigaOS 4.x+ G5 Mac could potentially outperform an Amiga X1000 for a fraction of the price.


There is no such solution. Toni just want to add PowerPC emulation to WinUAE, not to port OS4 to PowerPC Mac. I repeat, it is PowerPC on x86 emulation, not some kind of virtualisation on PowerPC (like ShapeShifter on 68k, or SheepShaver on PowerPC was).


Not yet but the necessary coding is not rocket science and the UAE sources are freely available. Most of the needed code may already be available from other open source projects. Is the code for SheepShaver open source?

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