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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 14:29:06
#381 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
If Hyperion wants to earn money by selling licenses they will have to offer a workaround/patch for that.


Exactly.

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HammerD 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 16:26:12
#382 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 901
From: Ontario, Canada

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@Hypex

Toni is WinUAE, his interest is emulating Amiga and Amiga is not PPC but 68k to him (like many others in the community). He cannot solve the limitation introduced by Hyperion when running the "classic version" that is Hyperions turn. They also get the money for AmigaOS (not Toni).

If Hyperion wants to earn money by selling licenses they will have to offer a workaround/patch for that.


Note: this is my own personal view here, not Hyperion's or anyone elses.

OlafS25, it is not really fair to say this is a limitation by Hyperion. The hardware itself on the Blizzard PPC and Cyberstorm PPC is limited to 256MB and 128MB of ram respectively.

Sure, you could add Zorro 3 RAM and put it as main memory. We actually tested this multiple times during development. The problem is that Zorro 3 memory is on the order of 10X slower than accelerator ram, and believe me, the system slows to a *CRAWL* when this memory is accessed directly. The system becomes nearly unusable. So it was decided to use the memory as SWAP, which I gather is accessed differently than main memory, and works at a somewhat tolerable level.

Now, Toni stated many times in the past there would *never* be PPC emulation. This only changed relatively recently, already far into the development cycle of AmigaOS 4.1 Classic and FE.

Toni has done an amazing job getting it to work - I'm really impressed, but you can't really fault Hyperion. Hyperion's AmigaOS 4.1 Classic (and FE) are designed for Blizzard PPC and Cyberstorm PPC based Amigas.

The limitations come from the design of the Amiga itself and the speed of the motherboard memory and Zorro 3 bus, not from Hyperion. Will things change in the future? Who knows. If sales of Final Edition are good it would certainly help things.

Last edited by HammerD on 06-Dec-2014 at 04:33 PM.
Last edited by HammerD on 06-Dec-2014 at 04:32 PM.
Last edited by HammerD on 06-Dec-2014 at 04:31 PM.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

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HammerD 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 16:30:22
#383 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 901
From: Ontario, Canada

@pavlor

I would rather turn this around and say if sales are crap there is *ZERO* chance any update/change would happen. Holding Hyperion out for random against this feature before the product is even available is not a strategy I would take.

Rather, good sales and user feedback from those sales would be a course of action that may work.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

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Tuxedo 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 16:38:42
#384 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2324
From: Perugia, ITALY

for sure better thing to do was emulate AmigaOne/Pegasos2 or Sam system to have an emulator that give us full AmigaOS4.x experience...

If WinUAE wont, well...hope that someone will consider use qemu to do the job!

_________________
Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 17:07:31
#385 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@HammerD

Quote:
Sure, you could add Zorro 3 RAM and put it as main memory. We actually tested this multiple times during development. The problem is that Zorro 3 memory is on the order of 10X slower than accelerator ram, and believe me, the system slows to a *CRAWL* when this memory is accessed directly. The system becomes nearly unusable. So it was decided to use the memory as SWAP, which I gather is accessed differently than main memory, and works at a somewhat tolerable level.


As I wrote that is understandable for classic hardware. However, Z3 RAM in WinUAE is as fast as Fast RAM. You say you tested Z3 RAM as Fast RAM, isn´t there some "secret" switch to activate Z3 RAM as normal Fast RAM?

Quote:
Will things change in the future? Who knows. If sales of Final Edition are good it would certainly help things.


My money is still waiting for FE!

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 17:11:02
#386 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Tuxedo

Quote:
for sure better thing to do was emulate AmigaOne/Pegasos2 or Sam system to have an emulator that give us full AmigaOS4.x experience...


Without full GFX card support (compositing/3D) it would be very similar experience to WinUAE.

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Tuxedo 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 17:21:30
#387 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2324
From: Perugia, ITALY

@pavlor

wasnt possible to use directly a real gfx card inserted on the host pc?
I mean use directly from WinUAE/qemu a Radeon4xx0 for example so we can have full AmigaOS composite/3D(wen availabe) support...

_________________
Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 17:23:47
#388 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Tuxedo

Quote:
I mean use directly from WinUAE/qemu a Radeon4xx0 for example so we can have full AmigaOS composite/3D(wen availabe) support...


Not in QEMU system emulation. It would require similar approach as late Amithlon - certainly doable, but I don´t think Hyperion will invest resources into such huge project.

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Tuxedo 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 17:29:15
#389 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2324
From: Perugia, ITALY

@pavlor

well....maybe it costs really lower than an underpowered ppc mobo...

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Simone"Tuxedo"Monsignori, Perugia, ITALY.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 17:38:23
#390 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Tuxedo

Quote:
well....maybe it costs really lower than an underpowered ppc mobo...


X1000 or X5000 would be still faster, but it would probably kill low-end hardware market (SAM460).

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HammerD 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 6-Dec-2014 23:29:59
#391 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Oct-2003
Posts: 901
From: Ontario, Canada

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@HammerD

Quote:
Sure, you could add Zorro 3 RAM and put it as main memory. We actually tested this multiple times during development. The problem is that Zorro 3 memory is on the order of 10X slower than accelerator ram, and believe me, the system slows to a *CRAWL* when this memory is accessed directly. The system becomes nearly unusable. So it was decided to use the memory as SWAP, which I gather is accessed differently than main memory, and works at a somewhat tolerable level.


As I wrote that is understandable for classic hardware. However, Z3 RAM in WinUAE is as fast as Fast RAM. You say you tested Z3 RAM as Fast RAM, isn´t there some "secret" switch to activate Z3 RAM as normal Fast RAM?


No, there isn't So don't bother to try once you get FE. However, there are unannounced features in the Classic version of FE that should make some people happy. Once the product ships I'll be able to tell you about them.



Last edited by HammerD on 06-Dec-2014 at 11:32 PM.

_________________
AmigaOS 4.x Beta Tester - Classic Amiga enthusiast - http://www.hd-zone.com is my Amiga Blog, check it out!

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Hypex 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 5:20:34
#392 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10023
From: Greensborough, Australia

@pavlor

Quote:
What more could he do?


Have an interest in doing it for one thing. He didn't spend time putting it in for the sake of emulating PPC. It's just a side affect that it emulates a PPC accelerator. He just needed to get this boot ROM working which started on the PPC CPU of the BlizzardPPC board. So that's why PPC was added.

Spending half a year on getting the boot ROM of an accelerator working so the board emulation can be added to the list is a lot! Almost sounds too much. Of course, the CPU emulation already existed, he just had to configure it so it worked like an Amiga board.

Last edited by Hypex on 07-Dec-2014 at 03:06 PM.

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Hypex 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 5:52:15
#393 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 6-May-2007
Posts: 10023
From: Greensborough, Australia

@OlafS25

In that case there shouldn't be any emulation of any "foreign" accelerator boards. Some boards were bridge boards, with an x86, are these supported? Then there are Mac boards. The Amiga never had an official 68060 CPU model, just like the Mac didn't, so they should be crossed off. Most video cards tended to use a VGA chipset which is certainly not Amiga so cross those off the list. The PPC cards here would fail the test, even if the CPU was used as a co-processor. so scrap that as well.

Forget Mediator. I've heard from a friend of certain Amiga people only like real Amiga hardware and the Amiga chipset but then plug in a Mediator to use PC cards. That certainly is not real Amiga hardware!

Quote:
He cannot solve the limitation introduced by Hyperion when running the "classic version"


OS4 Classic is designed to run on the Blizzard and CyberStorm PPC. So how well does it run on the actual hardware? It isn't meant to run on anything better. The fact it now runs on UAE is just a side effect. Just like UAE supporting PPC now is just a side effect. Not exactly planned, a happy accident.

But, it's emulation after all and bonus features can be added in like 8MB chip RAM. So why not emulate a Blizzard or CyberStorm PPC with a 1GB memory map if possible? More likely than creating a "fake" PPC card with 2GB RAM.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 8:58:17
#394 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@HammerD

Quote:
No, there isn't


I just tried...

Quote:
However, there are unannounced features in the Classic version of FE that should make some people happy.


Even my experience with current 4.1 Classic is good reason for me to buy FE. Good work you (all) did!

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 9:06:37
#395 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
Spending half a year on getting the boot ROM of an accelerator working so the board emulation ca be added to the list is a lot!


Boot ROM was working in nearly first (August? 2014) version. He then even added features to uncomplete PearPC CPU core, so OS4 could boot (August 14 2014)! In September 2014, Frode and Toni changed CPU core from PearPC to QEMU. Toni then did another small improvements to PowerPC emulation (eg. small compatibility issues).

Now, emulation is fast (faster than 460EX in some benchmarks!), stable and compatible (I didn´t find not working OS4 software). Sure, he maintains his public image "no PowerPC emulation ever", but his work is what really matters.

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 9:10:14
#396 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Hypex

Quote:
The Amiga never had an official 68060 CPU model


A4000T/060 was official model sold by AT.

Quote:
So why not emulate a Blizzard or CyberStorm PPC with a 1GB memory map if possible?


Toni could add more RAM to accellerator board. However, OS4 is limited by design to 128 (CyberstormPPC) or 256 MB (Blizzard603e). Again, it is up to Hyperion to solve this problem - if they want.

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OlafS25 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 9:57:48
#397 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5761
From: Unknown

@Hypex

most accelerators were third-party but they were running in the original hardware. Adding a X86 card in a amiga indeeds sounds a little strange to me too , but everyone how he likes. Toni will certainly not add such a card in WinUAE because it not really makes sense there.

Of course it was a big effort to add full PPC support just for being able to run some more software but I assume Toni became motivated to get it ready because people said it is impossible .

What I wrote was that it was not Tonis goal to run AmigaOS on emulation, it was a side-effect when he started with the project. So he is not responsible to solve limitations that arise now when using AmigaOS Final Edition on it. Hyperion has the sources of AmigaOS and can easy solve it, they want to sell the licenses and get the money from it. Toni already offered them a free lunch already (propably without getting any donation from Hyperion despite them benefitting already) so why should anyone expect of him to solve the problems of AmigaOS on emulation. People who want to buy or have already bought) AmigaOS should send requests to Hyperion so that they hopefully react. Toni is the wrong person to do it. Thus I do not understand why anyone might be disappointed of Toni, if it is not solved people should be disappointed of Hyperion (at best).

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pavlor 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 10:01:32
#398 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:
should be disappointed of Hyperion


As WinUAE is not officialy supported platform, Hyperion can´t be blamed if OS4 is limited there.

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Seiya 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 10:09:34
#399 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2006
Posts: 1416
From: Italia

@pavlor

WinUAE is indirect supported as it emulate 100% real hardware.
So OS4 in WinUAE works exactly like A4000 with Cyberstorm PPC.

_________________

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OlafS25 
Re: WinUAE with Cyberstorm Emulation.
Posted on 7-Dec-2014 10:37:58
#400 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5761
From: Unknown

@pavlor

you left away "at best"

If they want to sell licenses they will offer the changes, if not then not

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