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/  Forum Index
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      /  Every Day a New Surprise (Copyright Violations of muidev.de/MUI4)
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Manu 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 6:00:58
#41 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Feb-2004
Posts: 1561
From: Unknown

I also never heard about a classic Amiga, what's that ?

_________________
AmigaOS or MorphOS on x86 would sell orders of magnitude more than the current,
hardware-intensive solutions. And they'd go faster.-- D.Haynie

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Develin 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 7:54:57
#42 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Mar-2006
Posts: 443
From: Karlstad, Sweden

This is just an example how an incompatible class with higher revision can mess with a developer to be forced to patch it just to make the result to look the same :

http://www.onyxsoft.se/stefan/temp/aboutboxos4.png
http://www.onyxsoft.se/stefan/temp/aboutboxmorphos.png

I can understand that the revision might be automatically bumped when building the class, but still if it's intention to clone the feature it would be nice to have it equally on all areas.

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Nibunnoichi 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 8:19:56
#43 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 18-Nov-2004
Posts: 968
From: Roma + Lecco, Italia

@Manu

Quote:

Manu wrote:
I also never heard about a classic Amiga, what's that ?

If i'm not mistaken, i seem to recall that the wording "Classic Amiga" was introduced by Amiga Inc. in some old press releases... but i don't care to be honest, i simply call "Amiga" both my legacy (i have plenty) and my ng machines.

_________________
Proud Amigan since 1987
Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

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Trixie 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 8:47:28
#44 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 2084
From: Czech Republic

@Nibunnoichi

Quote:
If i'm not mistaken, i seem to recall that the wording "Classic Amiga" was introduced by Amiga Inc. in some old press releases.

You are not mistaken, I remember that too.

_________________
The Rear Window blog

AmigaOne X5000/020 @ 2GHz / 4GB RAM / Radeon RX 560 / ESI Juli@ / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition
SAM440ep-flex @ 667MHz / 1GB RAM / Radeon 9250 / AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition

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jPV 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 8:55:12
#45 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 11-Apr-2005
Posts: 786
From: .fi

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
Quote:

jVP wrote:
because it isn't the real MUI4. At least it confuses users who are misleaded to think that it's the real official MUI4 and at leat it isn't morally correct in my opinion...


Way is MorphOS version of MUI4.0 more MUI then AmigaOS4.1 version of MUI, is not just a fork?


Because MorphOS version of MUI4 was written by Stefan Stuntz, the original MUI author. He had the sources, design plans, visions etc himself and created the completely new version by those.

OS4 version was replicated much later for the parts which were needed to run Odyssey and MPlayer ports, but still not having full compatibility and it seems that it has even gone separate way with some incompatible features.


@OlafS25

Quote:
who cares if it is really "MUI4" or not? There could be only a confusion if there would be many projects that are developed cross-platform using MUI. I only recall OWB and Digibooster right now. People here have the desire to create problems where no real are.


And you are sure that nobody starts to develop any new cross-platform programs ever again, even when "MUI4" is now available on "all" platforms?

One thing which bothers me is the rewriting of the history. It was quite uncomfortable to read recent AmiKit8 news where you got the impression that MUI4 was originated from OS4, while it's been the killer feature and pride of MorphOS since ages. General audience don't know the history and if you tell things like that, it easily becomes a history. And it becomes even worse when you tell it's "the MUI4" even when it's partly incompatible reimplementation of the original.

_________________
- The wiki based MorphOS Library - Your starting point for MorphOS
- Software made by jPV^RNO

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ExiE 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 8:56:50
#46 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 450
From: Czech Amiga News

It is really sad read thread like this one. Anyway few thoughts

Word exclusive in Amikit announcement means the MUI4 68k was released exclusively for Amikit for NOW. As far as I know there is still missing AGA/OCS support in MUI4 68k so it can only run on machines with RTG support ie LIMITED exclusivity. Yeah kinda popular announcement but yes, it is interesting new feature of AmiKit and drag the attention.

You should also rememeber Jan Z. is not native english speaker.

"Classic Amiga" is widely used connection and everybody know it means 68k (even with various PPC expansions) and for me UAE too.




Last edited by ExiE on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:01 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 9:15:18
#47 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@jPV

the "news" was certainly not written by the "MUI4 AmigaOS team" so do not blame them for it and the man behind Amikit certainly did not think about what this might create (seen in this discussion). The Amikit news are recently always in that style. Do not take all too serious.

Regarding MUI4 and MorphOS, it is certainly a huge innovation, the problem is by keeping it closed and sticking to one platform with only a few hundred users (about +- 1000 users I have read) and not offering any binaries for 68k and other platforms it is only relevant if you write programs for MorphOS and are not interested in porting them to other platforms.

Yes I know what "classic" means (or better how it is used) but still the majority in the community use amigas.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:47 AM.

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rzookol 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 9:38:04
#48 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Oct-2005
Posts: 313
From: Poland, Lublin

@OlafS25

Morphos has more than 2000 users and constant registration growth.

http://mm.pl/~recedent/wykres2.png

Last edited by rzookol on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:39 AM.
Last edited by rzookol on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:38 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 9:40:37
#49 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@rzookol

I do not want to discuss it... it has (at best) 2000 registrated computers but even that is not true (or at least just a guess). It does NOT show 2000 users.

The counter can only grow (like a page counter in web). There was a discussion about this on morphzone and geit (who should know it) admitted that it is not showing real numbers. Everything else is speculation.

The only (more or less official number) were 800+ users based on downloads, are there official numbers by the team yet? I did not hear anything?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 10:01 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:53 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:44 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:43 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:41 AM.

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Chain-Q 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:00:50
#50 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@OlafS25
Quote:
Regarding MUI4 and MorphOS, it is certainly a huge innovation, the problem is by keeping it closed and sticking to one platform (...) and not offering any binaries for 68k and other platforms it is only relevant if you write programs for MorphOS and are not interested in porting them to other platforms.

Yes, but if they want to share it with someone else or not is still the decision which must be made by people who made it, or not someone else. Or the "MUI4 for AmigaOS' team is some kind of development-Robin Hood who took the valuables from the rich, and gave it to the poor, and that's fine?

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:04:20
#51 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@Chain-Q

if it is legal or not depends on the license they got. They should have called their branch different like the MUI implementation on Aros is called Zune. The MorphOS team can keep everything on their own (the same is true for AmigaOS team) but then they have no reason to moan that other implementations are different.

Standards are set by what is mostly used and available and not what is "best". If the MUI branch of AmigaOS team (as example) is widely available it has better chance to be used by software developers than a "MorphOS only" solution.

The rules of "normal world" are also valid for a smaller "hobby platform" like amiga. It all reminds me a little at "lord of the rings" and gollum always saying "my treasure". Here they say "my source" instead . That slows down development for the OSs and creates lots of problems for software developers.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 10:12 AM.
Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 10:06 AM.

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Chain-Q 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:09:44
#52 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@OlafS25
Quote:
I do not want to discuss it... it has (at best) 2000 registrated computers but even that is not true. It has NOT 2000 users.

Of course you do not want to discuss it, because you don't know, you just make empty claims. rzookol on the other hand is a MorphOS Team member...

Here's a random fact for you: There are over 2600 registration attempts, the majority of them are finished and from unique machines. Deal with it.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:14:56
#53 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@Chain-Q

Ok if you know it... then why no official numbers?

But even if 2000 users (the counter was about machines, has this suddenly changed?) if you are interested to cover most users it is still only a fraction of the community.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 10:16 AM.

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:21:30
#54 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@rzookol

ok you are "team member". The chart is about registrated systems and I have heard that many users own more than one (registrated) computer. So more than 2000 individual users is official?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 10:21 AM.

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Chain-Q 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:22:25
#55 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@OlafS25
Quote:
if it is legal or not depends on the license they got.

This thread started with an author posting his stuff found in MUI4 for AmigaOS, which he gave no license or permission. Your argument is invalid.

Quote:
The MorphOS team can keep everything on their own (the same is true for AmigaOS team) but then they have no reason to moan that other implementations are different.

There's a long (~20 years) history of developers hiding beind "official" AmigaOS badge inventing things being deliberately incompatible to established APIs. (MUI4 is an API established by MorphOS.) It's just history repeating itself again. There are still people who like what the Amiga once stood for, and want compatibility and cooperation. I think they better moan, because if they stop doing so, the world will be a little bit worse place for all future Amiga users. Yes, the 3-5 us, using all different incompatible platforms. Nevermind...

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

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Chain-Q 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:34:04
#56 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@ExiE
It's not about or against AmiKit of course, or about the press release. The only reason this dragged in the attention of MorphOS' developers, because on the long run it could seriously affect the 68k Amiga compatibility of MorphOS, if an API which was established by them is implemented in an incompatible manner on a system they want to stay compatible with.

And because they found their stuff without permission in the "MUI4 for AmigaOS' distributions, but that's again, nothing AmiKit specific.

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

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OlafS25 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:34:15
#57 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6279
From: Unknown

@Chain-Q

I wrote about MUI-source itself so it IS valid. BTW why do you think that big companies like Adobe support different platforms? Take PDF as a example, do you think it would have established as standard without free reader for all relevant platforms. Here everything pretends rules of normal life would not be valid but they are. If you want standards set them and take care that they are available everywhere. GUI toolkit is such a standard. If everyone keeps everything on its own everyone else does it different. Why do you think we have such a variety of different incompatible implementations. is it legal? Of course. Does it help to get more user (for anyone)? No. Does the situation give any benefits to users? No. Does it slowdown development? Yes. Does it make situation more difficult for software developers? Yes.

I do not understand the stubborness in the community (perhaps I was too long away). In the real world people are more pragmatic because they have to otherwise it is "game over" for them. Here people seem to celebrate that even.

"future Amiga users" What future Amiga users? The platforms are rapidly heading in different directions, there will be point in future where they will not have much in common if attitudes do not change. But if I read comments like yours it does not seem that people change mind.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 10:49 AM.

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Jupp3 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 10:37:26
#58 ]
Super Member
Joined: 22-Feb-2007
Posts: 1225
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:
If I develop something for MorphOS it does not automatically mean I want to share it with the whole world. I can, if I choose to do so

And of course the sources for the vast majority of software out there never gets shared with any "Amiga-like" systems (and might not be too portable anyway)

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Chain-Q 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 11:06:47
#59 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 31-Jan-2005
Posts: 824
From: Budapest, Hungary

@OlafS25
Quote:
The platforms are rapidly heading in different directions, there will be point in future where they will not have much in common if attitudes do not change. But if I read comments like yours it does not seem that people change mind.

I was porting Free Pascal Compiler to all Amiga platforms (MorphOS, OS4, 68k even AROS lately), all Amiga platforms can use a single implementation, because they're compatible - except OS4. They invented something different (interfaces), which are a pain in the ass to support if you're targeting multiple platforms and you're not using the official SDK (which you can't if you have your own compiler), and they declared it's the Amiga standard now. Fortunately, no one else cared. But it's still a problem, when it comes to supporting OS4.

Result: I dropped OS4 port from Free Pascal. It's just too much hassle to maintain compared to other systems. (Well, technically it's not dropped, so the source not deleted, I just stopped maintaining it.)

In other words, there's only one Amiga platform where people deliberately working against compatibility, and do kind of stuff you claim: it's OS4. I see this OS4 attitude now polluting 68k. Which as a classic *and* MorphOS user and developer, pisses me off. And I'm not alone. The awful silence from anyone OS4 or "MUI4 for AmigaOS" official in this thread is quite telling too...

_________________
MorphOS, classic Amiga, demoscene, and stuff
"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

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ExiE 
Re: Every Day a New Surprise (Not One of the Good Kind)
Posted on 10-Dec-2014 11:08:32
#60 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 18-May-2004
Posts: 450
From: Czech Amiga News

@Chain-Q
Quote:
The only reason this dragged in the attention of MorphOS' developers, because on the long run it could seriously affect the 68k Amiga compatibility of MorphOS, if an API which was established by them is implemented in an incompatible manner on a system they want to stay compatible with.

It is nice MorphOS want to stay compatible, but you have to understand there is also demand for some development on the other side too. 68k users are stuck with MU3.8 for ages and MorphOS devs did nothing to help on that matter. So no wonder people started looking elsewhere.

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