@ExiE

That said; I agree with Broadblues that removing an authors name seems very deliberate, and not even asking about using it .
Stepping on toes like that defintly wont help in "keeping the peace" between the socalled "camps".

@Chain-Q
Genuine question, since I dont know the people involved; Why should Official AOS people have an opinion beyond the one Broadblues has regarding the MUI? Is the MUI 4 AOS version developer(s) part of the core AOS team?

I often see the sentiment that unless X person takes a public stance on what Y have done, then by proxy Mr X supports whatever Y has done.

If I misread your post, then apologies

@ExiE
You don't have to explain that to me, I'm a classic user as well. The odds doesn't justify the means though. The fact is, there was absolutely no attempt of cooperation with MorphOS developers on this by anyone. Additionally, the people behind "MUI4 for AmigaOS' have a long history of basically hijacking MUI related projects.

They tied the versions of various NLIst (, etc) components to each other and the apps developed by them (YAM, etc), effectively forcing MorphOS to remove these 3rd party components from the default installation. They also tried to open source and hijack the development of AmIRC, without having rights to the source. Now this MUI4 fork is the next attempt. I'm sorry, but by no means I can approve this.

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@Overflow
Quote:

Why should Official AOS people have an opinion beyond the one Broadblues has regarding the MUI? Is the MUI 4 AOS version developer(s) part of the core AOS team?

At some point, MUI4 was pushed to users via official OS4 distribution channels. (AmiUpdate, or what it was.)

After they realized the legal problems with it (the shareware limits were "accidentally" disabled) they of course pulled it back... But at least the fact MUI4 was at some point available on official update channels shows some *possible* connections between "MUI4 for AmigaOS" and whoever is behind official OS4 distribution channels...

_________________
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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Overflow

Quote:

I often see the sentiment that unless X person takes a public stance on what Y have done, then by proxy Mr X supports whatever Y has done.

This what I'm thinking as well, I have registered MUI for AmigaOS4.1, (I have not got the Key yet), but I have payed for it. That's money I would not have given to Stefan Stuntz, if he did not support AmigaOS4.1.

What licence does AmigaOS 3.x/4.x MUI developers have?
Clearly they do are not allowed remove the registration system, and they wont have been able to work on MUI source code if they did not have licence.

Quote:

Wrote: jPV Because MorphOS version of MUI4 was written by Stefan Stuntz, the original MUI author. He had the sources, design plans, visions etc himself and created the completely new version by those.

Person X will be "Stefan Stuntz".

The thing that bugs me is, that because there are so many developers who works on it that do not agree on how MUI should be distributed, I don't think even Stefan Stuntz has right to the full source code.

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@Chain-Q

Quote:

MUI4 was pushed to users via official OS4 distribution channels. (AmiUpdate, or what it was.)

Anyone can push there software throw AmiUpdate, its as offical as OS4Depot.net or Aminet.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 10-Dec-2014 at 09:57 PM.

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Chain-Q

Ah, ok. Thanks for shedding some light on the twists and turns of the "Amiga" plaforms for the less informed.

@Chain-Q

BTW thank you for free pascal port

I wrote generally. In this case it is about MUI4 so it has to do with MorphOS but there are other examples related to AmigaOS. The problems you mention are one example for what I mean. If one side makes something different to the others it creates problems for everyone. I fear that MUI-implementations will become more and more different and it is (unfortunately) the only GUI toolkit available everywhere. In my view 3.8 is standard on 68k and will stay that because there are no new 68k MUI applications.

copy and paste of others work and remove the author is not ok that is what we all agree on. If they are legal to develope their own MUI branch based on the 3.8.-sources and call it "MUI4" depends on their license so I cannot say anything about it. I assume that it is legal otherwise members of "MorphOS team" would have certainly done something against it already. I personally would have used a different name just to avoid debates like this.

If the core OS developers of the different camps do not change mind all platforms will be incompatible in future and supporting more than platform will be impossible.

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Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 11:47 AM.

@OlafS25
Quote:

I fear that MUI-implementations will become more and more different and it is (unfortunately) the only GUI toolkit available everywhere. In my view 3.8 is standard on 68k and will stay that because there are no new 68k MUI applications.

It is questionable. Can be the reason there are no new MUI apps for 68k ported from other platforms outdated MUI3.8 or just nobody care about 68k anymore?

@Chain-Q

Quote:

Chain-Q wrote: I was porting Free Pascal Compiler to all Amiga platforms (MorphOS, OS4, 68k even AROS lately),

I so hoped for that to happen years ago
(on OS4 i mean)

On a side note, maybe you misunderstood this aspect, and from what i read sometimes you're not alone: AmiUpdate is open for every developer, in fact you receive updates for third party software through it, if the developer wants to use it. This doesn't mean that particular software is offical in any way.

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@OlafS25

There will be a little "chicken-egg" problems here since I, as a developer would like to use all of the latest feature of MUI4 but since I cannot trust the result of the cloned variants there can be a lot of extra work involved and therefor I can maybe settle for 3.8 as a base functionality or just don't bother to support the system.

@NutsAboutAmiga
Quote:

Anyone can push there software throw AmiUpdate, its as offical is OS4Depot.net or Aminet.

Interesting, during the AmiWest talk by the OS4 Team Lead, and when it was announced, it was official... All OS4 updates are also released through it. Additionally, MUI4 is an update to an OS4 part which was bundled with the system. Also, you had to be an OS4 customer to have access to AmiUpdate, IIRC.

Sorry, you can twist the words however you like, but it sounds official enough to me.

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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@ExiE

both propably

many developers who stayed changed to AmigaOS or MorphOS (the majority of them has dropped all amiga-related in the meantime). 68k was regarded (by those who were left) as retro, slow, oldfashioned so they did not care about it anymore, only few 68k developers stayed. Components like MUI (and others) were improved but never ported to 68k. "Too slow" and so on.

I would not say "nobody" cared about 68k but I would say "most of the active developers" did not care anymore.

Last edited by OlafS25 on 10-Dec-2014 at 12:05 PM.

@Nibunnoichi
There is still a version of FPC from 2006 on OS4Depot I did. I made the basic compiler working, but since OS4 was never my main platform, I was expecting someone to pick up and implement more headers and OS4 specific things (this is how we cooperate on AROS with Marcus Sackrow, and some other people). That never happened though. Then I stopped caring.

_________________
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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Develin

Yes that is the only chance. Drop all newer features and just rely on the "old" 3.8 features that are available everywhere. Or just develope for one platform. Not the best solution for everyone in my mind.

@Chain-Q

Quote:

There's a long (~20 years) history of developers hiding beind "official" AmigaOS badge inventing things being deliberately incompatible to established APIs. (MUI4 is an API established by MorphOS.) It's just history repeating itself again.

I'd agree with you, but in this case I think MUI4 for AmigaOS is actually trying to be compatible. However, because the MorphOS team don't want to share their source code beyond 3.9, they are having to re-implement. So it's incompatible unintentionally, not by design (AIUI).

Replacing a name in a copyright notice totally sucks though.

Quote:

There are still people who like what the Amiga once stood for, and want compatibility and cooperation. I think they better moan, because if they stop doing so, the world will be a little bit worse place for all future Amiga users. Yes, the 3-5 us, using all different incompatible platforms. Nevermind...

Yep.

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@Chris_Y
Quote:

However, because the MorphOS team don't want to share their source code beyond 3.9, they are having to re-implement. So it's incompatible unintentionally, not by design (AIUI).

A., MUI4 for AmigaOS is based on some early (2006) MUI4 source.

B., If it's not designed to be incompatible, why some 68k MUI4 demos refuse to start on MorphOS? Even with best intentions one can just say, they just didn't care, which is absolutely not an option considering the importance of MUI. However, considering the authors' history of tying versions of components and apps together as I detailed above, I doubt that.

_________________
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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)

@Chain-Q

MUI is officially a contribution to AmigaOS4, not part of the OS. Whilst installed by default it was housed in a separate directory so you could remove it if you are insane enough to want to.

3.9 was distributed with the OS you are right, and it was updated via the AmigaOS amiupdate server.

4.0 is till distributed with the OS as a contribution far as I can tell, but is now updated from a different amiupdate server it's no longer tested within the beta test system and has it's own seperarate bugtracking system.

@Develein

I think (though I'm not speaking for the AmigaOS MUI devs) compatability is the goal, your screenshots seem to show bugs rather than incompatabilty.

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@Chain-Q

Quote:

Chain-Q wrote: @Nibunnoichi There is still a version of FPC from 2006 on OS4Depot I did. I made the basic compiler working, but since OS4 was never my main platform, I was expecting someone to pick up and implement more headers and OS4 specific things (this is how we cooperate on AROS with Marcus Sackrow, and some other people). That never happened though. Then I stopped caring.

Too bad, i prefer wirthian languages to the other messed things around
I've never tried it because i always took for granted that it was alpha-unfunctional, then i switched to Modula2.

_________________
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Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote: @Chain-Q MUI is officially a contribution to AmigaOS4, not part of the OS. Whilst installed by default it was housed in a separate directory so you could remove it if you are insane enough to want to.

Not to mention the fact that you still need to buy a registration key, which wouldn't be the case if it was official, would it?

Last edited by Nibunnoichi on 10-Dec-2014 at 12:51 PM.

_________________
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Owner of various Commodore and a SAM440ep\OS4.1FE
See them on http://retro.furinkan.org/

@Nibunnoichi
Quote:

Too bad, i prefer wirthian languages to the other messed things around

Well, if there's a regular contributor stepping up, I'm still willing to cooperate. But I won't take the initiative again.

Quote:

I've never tried it because i always took for granted that it was alpha-unfunctional

Since Free Pascal is self-hosted, the OS4 compiler was actually built on OS4, using Free Pascal. That means it was functional enough to build a working version of itself. But indeed, it lacked most of the OS4 integration (header units for most system .libraries, except exec, dos and utility, IIRC, required for the compiler itself).

@Thread: Sorry for the offtopic, was my final post here regarding this.

_________________
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"When a bridge is not enough, build a Viaduct!"
"Strip the Amiga community of speculation and we can fit every forum on a 720k floppy" (by resle)