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      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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Aslak3 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 23-Feb-2015 19:10:55
#141 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

This is the strangest thread since I started visiting this site. It should have died before the bottom of the first page....

Remember the lines from the Kipling poem, If:

"If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;"

I think some folks are way past being mastered by their dreams...

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Signal 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 23-Feb-2015 20:09:30
#142 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Jun-2013
Posts: 664
From: USA

@itix
Quote:
They can be good hobby operating systems and I see nothing wrong with that. And there a popular and/or cheap hardware helps a lot.


@BrianHoskins
Quote:

...but we'd still be talking about a hobby OS.

Nothing wrong with that, though?


Now we're talking sense, and it could be the best hobby OS ever.
The 'go to' fun OS.


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Dirk-B 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 23-Feb-2015 20:54:48
#143 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

@Signal

An OS with a soul?

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agami 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 0:30:46
#144 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Leo

I'll say it again,

I

know

what

memory protection

is

and

how it operates

and

the benefits

Quote:
With a memory protected OS you don't have to worry about this. And as you said, as an average user you should not have to worry about that. This is the OS'job not yours.


Who's worrying. As a user of Amiga OS for over a decade I never spent a second worrying about the lack of memory protection.

Developers might care. But the average user doesn't know what it is and is certainly not spending any time worrying about it.

And to my original point, they would not 'notice' it was missing.

Also, when a person picks up a box of the OS, or when they used to, when operating systems were sold in shrink-wraped boxes (Windows/Mac OS X) and they flip to the back to see the features, they are not looking to see if the OS has memory protection, and even if they were it was not a feature listed on the back of the box.

Secondly, I think you are confusing me with @KingKong

The question in the title of this forum thread is not mine. And I certainly did not make any claims about Amiga OS becoming an RTOS.

Quote:
No, it won't take two years to do what took a decade to Apple, Microsoft, Linux community...


I never claimed that it would take two years to do everything that is available in today's versions of Mac OS X, Windows, or a desktop Linux disto.

My statement was, and still is: With US$7M and two years, I can get an Amiga OS to be in the top 5 of that list of operating systems.

Last edited by agami on 24-Feb-2015 at 01:16 AM.

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agami 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 1:15:26
#145 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@hotrod

Quote:
Well, I'm a user and I find it usefull in Windows. I also find it usefull in MacOS X and in Linux.


Of course you do. I do too.
I never said that it is not useful. Features like that and others which other operating systems have would be very useful if they were in AmigaOS.

Quote:
Saying that memory protection is unnecessary

I never said it was unnecessary.

My main point was about how you said that people would 'notice' the lack of memory protection. All I was wondering is how 'people' would actually notice something like that. Because most people, like 95% of smartphone, tablet, and PC users don't even know what memory protection is. So unless it is written in a document, or a message displays on the device at the point of application crashing "Your systems has crashed due to the lack of memory protection", how would people notice that memory protection was the missing ingredient?

Or lets put it another way.
Of all the crashes on Windows (3.x, 9x, 2000, XP, Vista, 7, 8), Mac OS (System 6,7,8,9, OS X, iOS), and kernel panics on Linux/Unix (too many variants), how many of the people experiencing these crashes knew what was the underlying cause?

I'll tell you how many; A very small percentage. To most people a crash is simply just a crash. The only thing that people care about is how quickly they can get back to where they were before the crash, and that nothing was damaged in the process.

Memory protection can help in this regard, but so can many other things. The user experience (UX) is not a finite science. There are many ways to trick the user into believing they are having a positive experience.

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terminills 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 2:13:33
#146 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1474
From: Unknown

@KingKong


Format DH0: ....

Last edited by terminills on 24-Feb-2015 at 02:13 AM.

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Pleng 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 2:51:52
#147 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Nov-2005
Posts: 458
From: Unknown

@agami

Quote:

My main point was about how you said that people would 'notice' the lack of memory protection. All I was wondering is how 'people' would actually notice something like that. Because most people, like 95% of smartphone, tablet, and PC users don't even know what memory protection is.


You don't need to know what something is to notice its sudden disappearance. If somebody switches to an AmigaOS based device (for whatever reason) and fins themselves having to reboot two or three times a day, they will tell you "It's c**p, it keeps crashing and I always have to restart it".

They don't know *what* they are noticing, but they are most definitely noticing it.

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Dirk-B 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 3:28:29
#148 ]
Super Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1185
From: Belgium

The ideal thing would be that if you install AmigaOS onto a
pc, mac or linux system, an icon would appear on the screen
and when you double click it, AmigaOS would appear in a window.
And then from within that window you could do all your Amigastuff.

Like we have AmigaForever but much more integrated into other
systems then only the pc-systems now. So that you could setup
a real amiga-net to connect al those installs over de net.

So AmigaOS on whatever sort of hostsystem with the freedom
of a standalone Amiga-system.

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agami 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 3:36:09
#149 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Pleng

Quote:
They don't know *what* they are noticing, but they are most definitely noticing it.


Thank you. At least one person gets it.

(Though if your Amiga is/was crashing two to three times a day then maybe something else is an issue.)

Now, be perfectly honest, and tell me: Is implementing memory protection the ONLY way of fixing the instability?

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agami 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 3:59:44
#150 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@Dirk-B

That is definitely one tactic.
Many here will cite how BeOS 5 had a hosted mode, as does AROS, and these OSs aren't a "leading" operating system.

Given the power/cost of most x86 systems these days, implementing a hosted OS would be a very practical step on the way to a native hardware OS.

It could even be something along the lines of an advanced shell replacement. Back in the late '90s I ran the LiteStep (OpenStep/NeXTStep) shell replacement on a Windows 98 SE box. It was an amazing experience. The UI was much faster and way more practical than Windows 98. People would come to my desk an think I'm running some exotic UNIX desktop. "But how did you get WinAMP to run on your system?"

Like a combination of the old Desktop X from Stardock and WinUAE. If I were Cloanto that's what I would be doing.

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Thorham 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 5:10:30
#151 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
Aslak3 wrote:

This is the strangest thread since I started visiting this site. It should have died before the bottom of the first page....

Remember the lines from the Kipling poem, If:

"If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;"

I think some folks are way past being mastered by their dreams...

Indeed. It's nothing but fantasy island.

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kolla 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 5:23:09
#152 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 3064
From: Trondheim, Norway

@agami

Main reason for memory protection is not because programs crash, but because it helps security. Once you have AmigaOS in your top 5 list, you have a huge problem with security, since any software on an Amiga can read any memory of any other software running on the machine - meaning any silly javascript or whatnot can scan through all the memory on the box and ship off anything of interest to whoever.

From any kind of view, having an Amiga online is bordering crazy dangerous in the first place, the only thing keeping it off the radar of black hats is its obscurity. This would change once you put it in the top 5 list - it would be a disaster.

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resle 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 5:53:56
#153 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@Dirk-B

I do that with Windows already: one of the users on my system is "Amiga".
Log to that user, and Window's shell disappears.
WinUAE is launched as a shell replacement, full screen, transparently.
No part of the Windows GUI gets in the way, not even screen pointers.
One second and I'm into OS 3.9 - which I could upgrade to 4.1 now that UAE supports it.
When WinUAE is closed for any reason, the user logs off.

I get:
- The driver support of Windows for network, USB, etc.
- A faster Amiga than any of the classics and NGs
- Multi-user, because I can have N users launching into N separate instances of AmigaOS
- A way faster boot, if you care about such things (and INSTANT reboot)

To me, it doesn't get any better than this
(btw I also have separate C64 and DOS users behaving exactly the same)

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KingKong 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 5:56:20
#154 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

@Aslak3
Quote:

Aslak3 wrote:
Remember the lines from the Kipling poem, If:


Thanks, I did not know it before. Here it is:


If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don’t deal in lies,
Or being hated, don’t give way to hating,
And yet don’t look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream—and not make dreams your master;
If you can think—and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on!”

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
Or walk with Kings—nor lose the common touch,
If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds’ worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that’s in it,
And—which is more—you’ll be a Man, my son.

If—, If— By Rudyard Kipling

Quite nice, even very nice.


Quote:
I think some folks are way past being mastered by their dreams...


Funny - I wonder what I can do in the future. For now I think that people should be careful what they wish for me or me to do, because it could happen to them, especially if it's not nice (according to justice, I think, so good people must not worry). There are some interesting postings from me (only in German) I could link to ... but I fear that then some would run totally mad & bonkers (irrational, crazy). This is, because they have a wrong world view and fear to realize reality (in which they do not look so good as they wish/think). They are traped in their dream and wishful thinking, gabbling along, supporting each others wrong world view ... and than came I and they notice the danger (for them to wake up) ... but sooner or later most will wake up and if it's in hell. Look what only the technical proposal of AmigaOS becoming open source has done to them. Here's a single paragraph (translated from Dreamtime): "Do you have suggestions for improvement? See it like this: in a perfect creation, the best will become real and good ideas can therefor describe the future, seemingly create it - one can therefor kind of make (dream of) the (certain, predetermined) future." - well, like always, just my thoughts/opinion.


One advantage of open source is that one can then use all the other open source. Open source Amiga could simply copy some useful parts from Linux and modify/improve them (at least, I hope so). It is therefor important to choose the right licence policy.

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resle 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 6:15:57
#155 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2005
Posts: 500
From: shanghai

@KingKong

Quote:
Open source Amiga could simply copy some useful parts from Linux and modify/improve them


This. This is what I can't forgive and the reason why I can't help but reply to such threads.
This: people throwing themselves into long ramblings based on no know-how, expertise, or most basic foundation in the matter they're discussing.

It's unforgivable because, aside making your whole point laughable and useless, it's an insult to the people who spend years and years to build that expertise.

You're a preschool child going to a NASA forum and shouting "you should put bigger wings on your rockets, if you did we would be on Mars already! I believe it can be done! Listen to me, listen to me!" and dismissing engineers' polite explanations of why you're not making much sense as "bullshit"

Last edited by resle on 24-Feb-2015 at 06:17 AM.

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KingKong 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 10:28:33
#156 ]
Member
Joined: 21-Oct-2006
Posts: 95
From: Germany

AmigaOS should be (in the future) capable of fully sandboxed desktop applications:
First fully sandboxed Linux desktop app
Fully sandboxed, cross-distro Linux apps are almost here
Fortschritte bei Distributions-unabhängigen Apps für Linux-Desktops

Yeah, AmigaOS has currently other problems but let's collect good ideas for the future. Docker is also a good idea and an example for software, which could be integrated in an open source AmigaOS, which would probably be a problem for an closed source AmigaOS.

Another point is: the future may very well be open source and open hardware, because of security concerns (CIA/NSA-Trojan in firmeware/chip-microcode). Open source and open hardware may sometime be dictated by law - at least for all security-relevant devices, military, infrastructure, important industry and so on.

It would be a good idea for Amiga, not to miss this train (trend, development) ... because of Survival of the fittest.

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Cool_amigaN 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 12:11:19
#157 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Oct-2006
Posts: 1227
From: Athens/Greece

@Morphix

Quote:

Morphix wrote:
Switch to affortable hardware for everyone.
Re written from scratch, new kernel, memory protection, focus on stability.
Fit in todays standards.
Focus on performance for each and every task.
Focus on the daily needs of an end user.


Exactly. Though the list implies the existence of an investor with really deep pockets and a business plan focused outside our niche market. Someone who will try to market and sell a proper AOS NG for the masses. Still, if you get rid of 3.x compatibiliity (to achieve proper mp and multi processor support) I am willing to bet that the effort will get blasted by many name followers and "purists", imo.

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fishy_fis 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 12:11:51
#158 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Mar-2004
Posts: 2163
From: Australia

Funny thread.

So far it's been proposed that amiga os discard everything that makes it amiga os, that it goes open source, that it runs Linux and windows software, that it utilizes features that are used elsewhere, that it doesn't need to be amiga by name, etc,.etc.....

Now call me whacky, but doesn't this exist already? It's called Linux.
Now this isn't to say I'm a fan, or even regular user. Apart from dev. purposes Im not a fan.

As for open source amiga style os, that also exists and it's called AROS.

Flights of fantasy can be fun, but this is just weird.
A person who clearly has no idea about how an OS works, doesn't even know amiga os, has no amiga os system, wants it to be something else, and so on and so forth.
What exactly is it you even want from amiga os? And why amiga? If the name isn't important then why bother with it. There's a million and one options out there that are much cheaper, more mature, and cover the things being proposed. Why not just use them?

AmigaOS and derivatives are what they are. They work a certain way. This brings both the things people enjoy about them, but also almost ensures certain shortcomings. Doesn't stop them from being enjoyable though.
When I want to utilize cutting edge features or functionality I'll do it elsewhere. While Im all for any improvements to aos/aros/mos Im still capable of enjoying other platforms while enjoying what amiga-oid systems offer as well.

Last edited by fishy_fis on 24-Feb-2015 at 12:18 PM.

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Aslak3 
Re: How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 12:12:41
#159 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2012
Posts: 268
From: Southampton, UK

@KingKong

Quote:

Thanks, I did not know it before. Here it is:

...

Quite nice, even very nice.


It's generally considered one of the finest poems in the English language. Thanks for posting it in full, probs the most useful part of this thread. ;)

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Severin 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 24-Feb-2015 13:31:07
#160 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 2740
From: Gloucestershire UK

@KingKong
Rant mode on.

Get a life, we don't want a over complicated and slow OS like windows that you seem to want, so use windows and go away.

Some of your points are already addressed, like granite on os4depot which provides a firewall to alow/prevent any program accsessing the net. Most of your other opinions seem to be pointless or are being worked on.

As a beta tester I can say that my system is rock solid, I do get crashes but thats what I have to try to make programs do. I've not had anything crash that wasn't ealry alpha stage for a long time.

This thread is like a committee meeting, endless talking about doing something but never doing anything (life of brian anyone? What have Hyperion ever done for us?).

I've not read all this thread it's far to boring.

If you want to rip an OS to shreds at least be a user of that OS and stop waffling on about something you've never tried.

Rant mode off.

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