@Signal

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on AOSxx all programs are native or don't run.

Well that is what I call Next OS,
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If 68k can be re-written for AOSxx... whoopee! Otherwise run it on 4.1fe after a re-boot.

I don't understand way you don't won't run this in some kind of VirtualBox or emulation.
I for one won't to have hardware visualization in new OS, I do not see way you should design a new OS that does not support hardware visualization in 2015.

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Keep PPC on the desktop for as long as practical, but the first jump to another architecture is done on a embedded board.

It's bit like saying I'm going to drive in direction of the cliff as long as I can, and when I'm on the edge, I'm going to break and turn around and drive the other way.

So you have spent many hours driveling in the wrong direction, and you have to make up for it by doubling back, if you haven’t already fallen of the cliff.

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something more than a Rpi, but not more than the Intel Galileo.

That exclude it from server market, the desktop market and game market. Bad idea if you like the OS to be leading operating system, a new motherboard should have CPU socket, put whatever is the best CPU on the market on it and sell it.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 08:39 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 04:05 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 04:04 PM.

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@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote: That exclude it from server market, the desktop market and game market. Bad idea if you like the OS to be leading operating system, a new motherboard should have CPU socket, put whatever is the best CPU on the market on it and sell it.

Sounds expensive.

I agree with your wishes for a new OS.

I am just talking about a first step to a different architecture. Something low cost, available, saleable, and useable although perhaps not as a full desktop system.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

@KingKong

Quote:

KingKong wrote: I think that it's better to improve AmigaOS instead of starting from scratch, because with AmigaOS there's already something to use and work with. Memory protection and SMP would be nice but that should be possible and then AmigaOS is good enough for a while. The next thing should be porting more software and thinking about a NG (new generation) Amiga (OS and hardware). What could be super features? - modular, - real time, - userfriendly, - very secure with ECC and bottom up public checksums, - chip integrity verification, for external hardware (SSD, USB) also (as much as possible, there could be cooperations with hardware companies). That's pretty much and in a world full of backdoors, computer viruses, Trojans, etc. a real (even from CIA/NSA) secure computer is the new killer feature. Another thing to think about is 40/48 bit computing - that could be an advantage in price, energy consumption and performance. With any luck no one else will venture this, because in view of 64 bit it seems unnecessary ... but some real good 40/48 bit CPU/system-design with state of the art production could very well be a considereable advantage - think of super computing at home and AI (well, not know but perhaps in some decades and bevor AI there could be VR). See (sorry, only in German): Lieber mehr echte universelle Rechenleistung bis hin zur KI and faszinierend. Amiga should stay with PowerPC - support for more CPUs would be nice and should be done but AmigaOS must also have a unique hardware, a superior speciality ... and the base could be PowerPC with AltiVec and perhapse some further ideas/features (last but not least 40/48 bit computing). Speculative execution is probably a mistake even it could gain some extra speed, because it costs more energy and transistors ... or in other words: it is inefficient and therefor not suitable for Amiga. An Amiga-CPU most be as perfect as possible, so remember KISS. Two things are very important: Performance per watt and security/reliability - it must be nearly impossible for the hardware to make an undetected error. EPIC is a good idea. "... EPIC implements a form of Very Long Instruction Word (VLIW) architecture, in which a single instruction word contains multiple instructions. With EPIC, the compiler determines in advance which instructions can be executed at the same time, so the microprocessor simply executes the instructions and does not need elaborate mechanisms to determine which instructions to execute in parallel. The goal of this approach is twofold: to enable deeper inspection of the code at compile time to identify additional opportunities for parallel execution, and to simplify processor design and reduce energy consumption by eliminating the need for runtime scheduling circuitry. ..." (Itanium). Well, that's my opinion and not to forget the first step: AmigaOS has to become open source.

So, it's quite evident that you do NOT read what others have said, and repeat again the SAME absurd things. You even reported EPIC/Itanium now, which was and is a failure, and that will likely be abandoned in a few years (like many rumors reported)...

Either you're a troll, or simply for you every day is an April foul day...

@Signal

Quote:

and usable although perhaps not as a full desktop system.

Yes, it might be idea to take short cut into game console market.
That way will not need to have too many applications; you can even drop the desktop.
Team up with LG or some big companies that might like to challenge Microsoft / Sony.

All you need is a nice menu system, and some thing that is easy to control by remote control.

You get bush of game players, who do not even know what they are using to fund development.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 07-Mar-2015 at 12:09 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 09:02 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 09:00 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 08:57 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 06-Mar-2015 at 08:56 PM.

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@KingKong

OK, it's crystal clear that you have very little understanding of computing architecture. Your writing reminds me of that scene from The Internship when they have the assignment to find the bug in the audio driver; You are saying lots of things very fast that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. Go find professor Xavier at Stanford, bold British guy in a wheelchair, and have him punch you in the balls.

Furthermore, you have no experience in constructing a logical argument. You get excited about things you read and then think how cool it would be to have that in the next über Amiga. And you contradict yourself all time:

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Amiga should stay with PowerPC...

and

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... not to forget the first step: AmigaOS has to become open source.

Even if your GNU/GPL license specifically states to keep it on PowerPC the first thing people are going to do is port the OS to x86 and ARM.

And can you pleeeeaaaaase stop harping on about how secure the new OS/HW needs to be so that intelligence agencies can use it. You obviously have no idea how highly secure government departments procure technology. What is it you think they are running right now?

EPIC is a good idea, and maybe some day in the future someone will have another go at it. The issue with epic was iA64 and the Itanium.

So are you saying the über Amiga should have multiple EPIC versions of the Power8 CPU? With a 48bit architecture, everything encrypted with unbreakable encryption, everything firewalled including the PCI bus to memory bus, running a new Amiga-like RTOS, which is modular, user friendly, and open source?

And somehow this all intersects with Goldblum?

Last edited by agami on 07-Mar-2015 at 11:59 AM.
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Last edited by agami on 07-Mar-2015 at 11:58 AM.
Last edited by agami on 07-Mar-2015 at 11:57 AM.
Last edited by agami on 07-Mar-2015 at 11:55 AM.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

@agami

Quote:

agami wrote: @KingKong OK, it's crystal clear that you have very little understanding of computing architecture. .....

That was nasty.

Sometimes people dream/think outloud or in print. Does not hurt, and sometimes sparks ideas that can prove benefical.

_________________
Tinkering with computers.

'Rowhammer' DRAM flaw could be widespread, says Google
Rowhammer: RAM-Manipulationen mit dem Vorschlaghammer

"... By reading from the same address in DRAM, we show that it is possible to corrupt data in nearby addresses. More specifically, activating the same row in DRAM corrupts data in nearby rows. We demonstrate this phenomenon on Intel and AMD systems using a malicious program that generates many DRAM accesses. We induce errors in most DRAM modules (110 out of 129) from three major DRAM manufacturers. From this we conclude that many deployed systems are likely to be at risk. ..." Flipping DRAM bits - maliciously

DRAM error rates: Nightmare on DIMM street

This shows that one should use ECC and 1 bit ECC for 8 bit data may be not enough. The point is: a very secure and reliable computer can be an advantage over a cheaper and faster computer, which is not so secure/reliable. A system that - because of ECC, bottom up checksums, KISS, wise and clear system/chip-architecture, ... - is much more secure could be sold very well with good profit. This could compensate less earnings from an open source operating system ... but there isn't really a choice, because open source is for such an extra secure system necessary and indispensable. AmigaOS has still some opportunities but especially (if not only) as open source. It's wise to release AmigaOS to open source before a great success is in sight (right owners could be a real nuisance, smelling the scent of big money and rivals could buy the rights to hinder Amiga) - only open source is kind of indestructible. It's quite simple: now it may be possible, to release AmigaOS to open source for comparatively little money ... but what, if AmigaOS has already gained some success? At least that's something to think about. (imho)

@Signal

Quote:

Signal wrote: That was nasty.

See post above this and you'd find that agami was giving far to much "benefits of doubt".

_________________
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- blame Canada

"... Those of you who have other concrete ideas, we welcome to contact us. ..."

Hi there. Well, I think that good ideas for (worldwide) improvement should not kept secret, so I'm posting here. I hope that the message comes through.

Here, a new posting (sorry, only in German but I think it's worth reading): revolutionäres

The main idea was already mentioned: a super secure and extra reliable computer can be sold at higher prices whereas sheer computing power becomes less important, because it is already quite high enough for most applications. Yeah, one can't have enough computing power ... but more important one needs security and reliability in both hardware and software (and to be trustworthy it must be open source). There is (at least maybe) a chance vor Amiga.

Update of some broken links in this thread (sorry, only in German):
MINIX 3
Wie sicher ist das wirklich?

A new one: löten oder nicht löten, das ist hier die Frage (the question is, what items should be soldered and for what items sockets are better).

@KingKong

Why do you keep on talking about "super security" when people explain you that nothing could be more away from that than AmigaOS. AmigaOS (and the others) are "secure" by "obscurity" and not because of architecture. To get them there you would need to completely change them and rebuild everything, the result would have nothing in common with the existing platforms. BTW obviously there are already safe options so why should the world wait for a "super-secure" AmigaOS?

@Signal

there is already another platform ported to ARM and currently even inthe process to be adapted special to Raspberry and Raspberry 2. What would be the advantage of AmigaOS ported to ARM compared to the other platform except naming? I would like to understand it because nobody has ever explained it to me. BTW direct 68k support would certainly be dropped and replaced by UAE.

My old whining..

Easy to use for even grandparents.

Do You need a fast starting machine with none ads and viruses for the working net? Click & Print from the camera/phone some pictures or write some text? Some games? Also old stuff would be + for us.

Did not read any messages as got bored Sorry. The Firefox project was a good try, then HP, then Ubisoft etc.. Amiga in a TV would be a hit?

@PR

+1

And about the topic.... "How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system"

Leading in general: too far away
Leading in gaming: too far away
Leading in industry: too far away

Leading OS for Amigans: doable
Leading OS for PPC fan(atic)s: within reach, with heavy effort

Leading OS for senior users: within reach, perhaps
Leading OS for kids: within reach, perhaps
Leading OS for multimedia kiosk systems: within reach

Collecting subniches:
The most FUN OS to play around with: doable
The most FUN OS to learn programming with: doable
The most FUN OS to learn HW controling/robotics with: perhaps doable
The most FUN OS to learn xyzåäö: perhaps
...



(we do not need to be leading, we just should find ways to stop the community from shrinking, even if "mrket share" keeps on getting smaller, a few new users every now and then can make the community to live to future)

Last edited by KimmoK on 07-May-2015 at 01:00 PM.
Last edited by KimmoK on 07-May-2015 at 12:55 PM.

_________________
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// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

@KimmoK

Nice summary. I might rate some areas slightly higher or lower, but I think your's is a rational assessment of the current situation.

_________________
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Interesting, I logged in to respond to this then it turns out I'd written a similar thread 5 and a half years ago.

As others have rightly pointed out, there is no technological asset that the amiga has that is still relevent today. Things have just marched too far ahead. You could argue that the dominant operating systems should be leaner and have less bloat, and follow the 'ethos' of the amigaOS, but it's not like the amiga has a monopoly on that quality anymore.

The only way to knock windows off of its throne, is to create an operating system (or at least, operating environment) that is vastly and unambiguously better at getting things done than its competition, being a massively superior enabler and time saver in people's daily lives, as well as having this advantage marketed/promoted in such a way that the dumbest dummy of a computer user can understand why they should have it (or else they convert due to mob mentality). And maybe not even then, because 'good enough', is... good enough.

Whether you call such a hypothetical invention 'amigaOS' or 'FudgeSticks' is irrelevent, it will have no connection to the amiga. It's like if I replace my computer's hard-drive... still the same computer, right? What if I change the graphics card... and then the motherboard and cpu, and then the memory sticks, and then the case and the fans and the peripherals... somewhere along the line it stopped being what it was. And that's what any 'amiga' would have to be to have a future.

If there's anything of amiga such a product would carry forward, it would be the 'spirit' of the amiga--an abstract term, to be sure-- but what I mean by that is that Amigas were about doing things well, whereas Microsoft products were about rushing to meet real-world needs (both in the business and the home), regardless of excellence of execution or pride in one's craft. And now that I think on it I am not sure, historically speaking, that anything has met the best of both these worlds without compromise, including the Amiga. A vacuum to be filled?

Anyway, chances are if such a thing existed and was a real threat, then Microsoft (or google, or whoever) would do a Minecraft and buy it out, unless you had someone with a very deep integrity and belief that such company was too evil to sell out to.

Much more realistic is to wait for microsoft to get complacent in their dominance and screw up really badly. But honestly, I'm not sure if kicking Windows out is even a desirable goal anymore. I think it used to definitely be true that Amiga's didn't suck in ways that Windows machines did--but that's become less and less true as time has gone on, until now all you can really point to is the huge footprint it has (which barely makes a dent in the modern home computer, except some bottom market laptops). Windows is meh, sure, but not 'bad enough'.

Monopolies aren't necessarily undesirable, it depends on how they use or abuse their position. For example, when I use ebay I don't have a yearning to be using some other online auction service. And until the day that they start acting Mister Big and doing whatever the hell they want regardless of customer satisfaction, I won't experience that desire. And I think most people, consciously or otherwise, feel the same way.

Last edited by soft on 07-May-2015 at 06:19 PM.
Last edited by soft on 07-May-2015 at 06:19 PM.
Last edited by soft on 07-May-2015 at 06:18 PM.

@soft

For me the void that was left by AmigaOS was filled by Linux. Linux is a tinkerer's OS, like AmigaOS is. Except that Linux is relevant to modern-day computing and is supported by very cheap high performance hardware.

The problem is that there is no longer any home-computing niche for AmigaOS to fill which isn't already handled very well by existing, cheaper, solutions.

The only hope for AmigaOS now would be to find some new market to develop. Something which is not well established or supported by another player. Home automation is one example, and potentially an exciting market to develop.
But such a market, whatever it is, would undoubtedly involve a new direction for the platform, unrelated to what we have now. There's no drive for such a venture because the existing user-base wants a development of the current OS to fill some void which no longer exists. In essence, they want to turn back the clock and have AmigaOS dominate the home computing market. It won't happen.

If we remember, AmigaInc tried to do this very thing in the past. AmigaDE was their attempt to take the platform in a new direction, and we all scoffed at them. Looking back on it now, I have to admit that it wasn't really a bad idea. Look how successful Android has become in the meantime. Of course, AmigaInc were never going to take AmigaOS where Google took Android. That's obvious. But their idea was correct; abandon home computing and the current OS as we know it, because that ship sailed in 1995. Find a new niche.

Still, I do enjoy playing with my Amiga machines. I like them for what they are, and I've given up on what they might have been.

Last edited by BrianHoskins on 07-May-2015 at 09:05 PM.

@soft

I think many of us have different goals. For me the goal is not to kick MS into the balls or knock them off the throne. I neither hate nor love them, I don't care about them. But I want to continue using an Amigaish OS (using MorphOS since over a decade now). Hence, I care that Amiga/MorphOS will get enough users to sustain a continuation of developemnt. But I don't think in market share dimensions. Heck, even 0.01% of the marketshare (which would be only some sub threshold noise in the market) would be some 100k units. Unfortunately not even all current Amiga flavours combined are reaching a fraction as tiny as 0.001% (some 10k units) of the market (probably about 2-3 Bln units).
MorphOS comes close to 0.0001% of the worldwide pc market - wow!
thing is, even with this low market share it is fun to use, gets steady development and is sufficient for most of my needs. For _me_ MorphOS is the leading OS already. But 99.9999% of the market seem to have a different view on that matter... Well, only dead fish swim with the stream.

_________________
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MorphOS user since V0.4 (2001)

@Zylesea

I disagree with MorphOS being leading OS (at least not everywhere). And I have done a different choice and am happy with it.

MOS developers should join AOS 4 developers IMO and stop fighting. But even if they did... there are no easy solution without loads of cash. Without a big company that means well I don't see how the Amiga can survive in the long run. It will probably always be there like BeOS. I've lost hope.

@Zylesea

You're right... the primary goal is to create a viable product.

The problem is, that would almost certainly require abandoning the current architecture and forging some level of cooperation between the remaining players.