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      /  How to make Amiga OS a leading operating system?
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PosterThread
Overflow 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 9:55:06
#481 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1628
From: Norway

@Hillbillylitre

Not particulary constructive.

People spend xx thousands of dollars on old cars, stamps, electronic gizmos, the list is endless.
If a hobby gives people enjoyment, I see no reason I should go out of my way to call it a waste of time or space.

Tbh virtually everything people surround themselves with are "a waste of space/time/money".

I got A1200 which lately have seen the addition of USB and Indivision for convinience. Complete "waste of money" if you consider the performance to money ratio compared to my I7 Wintel computer. But it adds to the enjoyment i get out of the old system.

I dont find it hard to transpose that perspective over to NG AOS users with regards to their PPC hardware.

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wawa 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 10:17:59
#482 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Overflow

i rather suspect, that all these people with different expensive hobbies do not hope or argue, how to make their hobby a leading hobby of the world. starting the subject like this simply invites a reality check as response. if such completely utopian subjects in the os4 section didnt regularly appear on the front page less people would engage them and the whole os4 affair would be less of a laughing stock.

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OlafS25 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 10:25:27
#483 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@kolla

Everybody can have a opinion

but talk is cheap. Somebody has to do it. I have read of former Aros devs who wanted to break compability and create a "modern" OS a few years ago (I think it was called Arix identical to the newer one). They argued with the other devs who wanted to continue with the amiga-route and left. One webpage was created, propably some discussions... and then nothing, zero. The others continued and got very far in my view. So saying "I want this and that" on a forum is no problem, doing it is different. You say you have more important things to do (or more interesting) then why requesting it? I do not understand the motivation. If i take part in a discussion I have at least the interest to move something and if I want others to do something I at least try to start with it myself. To say I want something but I will not contribute and others shall create what I wish myself is (for a developer) a little strange. Just my personal opinion.

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Leo 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 10:40:04
#484 ]
Super Member
Joined: 21-Aug-2003
Posts: 1597
From: Unknown

@OlafS25: this "shut up and do it yourself" simply means you don't accept someone may have a different view of the Amiga than you have. What if Hyperion decided to go Kolla's view ? And you asked for the traditional OS4 instead ? Should he tell you to do it yourself ?

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

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OlafS25 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 11:00:13
#485 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 6376
From: Unknown

@Leo

Kolla was requesting MMU on Apollo board because he wants to run Unix with it and repeating that. Here he wants a totally new and different OS. In both cases others shall do it, he himself has different things to do.

And if Hyperion (or anyone else) would go in that direction I would not be interested myself. On newest versions of Windows many of the older software is still running for some reasons. Nobody drops compatility without good reasons. A OS that would only share some basic concepts is not very interesting to me. BTW more than some basic talk Kolla never offered, no concepts, no plan what these ideas it shares with Amiga would be, not what it would be based on.

He has the right to say his opinion, but same is true for ME

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Hillbillylitre 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 13:58:04
#486 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2015
Posts: 270
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
@Hillbillylitre

Lowering the prices would not at all make it leading in any way, shape or form. There are OSes available for free that are way more modern and feature rich than AmigaOS, and they too are not leading. All leading OSes are that because developers participate and keep up with standardisations. A leading feature is to be compatible and interoperable with the rest of the world, and it is a mighty long time since that was the case for AmigaOS.

Yes it would. They can always lower the price so low that they give it away, then pay people to actually have it for more than a few days, and even use it too. If they do that with some millions desktop devices, they may be able to hijack a percent of the desktop market share.

Linux/other had only 2% of the market share in 2013 according to this figure so why not buy 3% of the Windows users to pass Linux/other at least...

Last edited by Hillbillylitre on 14-May-2015 at 01:59 PM.

_________________
Using: One Commodore C64 - One Commodore Amiga 500 - One Commodore Amiga 1200 with BVision and Blizzard 68060 with PPC coprocessor running Amiga DOS - One Hellbillylitre Amigatwox86x64x6000x running Windows7

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Rob 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 14:09:04
#487 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 6369
From: S.Wales

@TheBilgeRat

Quote:
Well, its certainly no worse than what thierry used to spam on the natami forums, but yeah...


Since you mentioned Thierry and there's a chance he's reading this. I've found something for him.

http://www.impulse-corp.co.uk/products/industrial-communications/industrial-serial/serial-cards/pci_express-serial-cards/cp_118e_a_i.htm

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bison 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 16:04:30
#488 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@Hillbillylitre

Even two percent is millions of users, and if you are going to pay them all to use a different system, then good luck with the fund raising.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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bison 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 16:26:46
#489 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 18-Dec-2007
Posts: 2112
From: N-Space

@kolla

Quote:
Apart from providing a certain desktop experience, AmigaOS has no use case.

I'm sure its been attempted before, but it would be beneficial to try and classify what the core features of this desktop experience are. Polls are too crude, and comments wander off topic, but something like the dense area of a scatter graph would be useful. Does anyone have the software skills to attempt something like this? It would probably require a multiple-choice questionnaire where the next question depends on the answer to the previous.

Quote:
What Amiga users need, and should want from "the mother company", is a modern implementation of the AmigaOS user experience, it is fully possible to reimplement everything users identifies as "AmigaOS" in a modern architecture.

I agree entirely, but to many people the Amiga has grown in their imagination to something that cannot be compromised in even the smallest detail. Because it cannot be perfect it will never exist at all.

Last edited by bison on 14-May-2015 at 04:27 PM.

_________________
"Unix is supposed to fix that." -- Jay Miner

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TheBilgeRat 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 17:42:00
#490 ]
Member
Joined: 20-May-2010
Posts: 36
From: Unknown

Quote:

agami wrote:
@TheBilgeRat

Love the handle, and your avatar/sigil is awesome.


Thanks!

Quote:

Quote:
The simple answer is you don't.

Don't or can't?


Sure, pick one. Say "Don't" if you look at the technical hurdles...say "Can't" when you look at the number of people/amount of money/lack of mindshare/etc. AmigaOS does fine right where it is, for what it was designed for.


Quote:

Quote:
You will never beat microsoft for reliability (yes, reliability: unless you're thierry atheist), availability of good software, power of supported platforms, and price.

Microsoft Windows is not a leading OS in all computing endeavours. Not sure why you think AmigaOS needs to be a leading desktop OS?

Think of it this way: If in 2005 I asked in this or a Mac forum "How to make Mac OS X a leading operating system?" You or your evil Mac twin would try and shut my question down with a similar retort; Windows blah blah, Linux, blah blah, etc.

But for several years between 2008 and about 2011, OS X was a leading operating system, just not on desktops and notebooks. It was the leading smartphone and tablet OS. And it is still the leading tablet OS by usage and developer preference.


This is a dishonest comparison. If you had walked into almost any school in 2005 and strode into the computer lab (if there still was one) or looked on the desktops of the teachers you would have most likely seen macs of some variety. You would also notice that, while market share wasn't dominant, that Apple was a solvent company, with a large chunk of mindshare, investors, money, and (love him or hate him) a visionary hard ass at the helm. A solid hardware division coupled with a solid software division.

Now, lets examine what Microsoft runs on: any x86 based board (and soon to be arm as well). What does linux/bsd run on? Everything and anything. What does OSX run on? It doesn't just run on Apple...BUT - it does target a viable hardware platform.

So, amigaOS? targets no viable commodity hardware platform. No money or mindshare. A tiny userbase. A community that cannot agree what is "teh true" legacy of Amiga (hardware? Software?) and constantly filled with grandiose ideas about rising Phoenix-like from the ashes to take over the world. Show me millenials who even know what Amiga was/is. There aren't any. I was 14 when I saw my first amiga. I was 18 when I could afford one for myself. CBM folded when I was 19. I'm betting money that I'm on the younger side of most Amiga users.

Those are HUGE obstacles to overcome.

Quote:

Quote:
What does AOS bring to the table? Absolutely nothing.

Oh ye of little vision. Your evil twin might have asked/stated the same about Mac OS X in 2005. The key thing to remember is the old saying "If Mohammed will not go to the mountain, you bring the mountain to Mohammed".


Disingenuous again, I'm afraid. Like I said, Apple in 2005 was still a viable company, with a viable vision, with viable money and a strong leader at the helm.

Quote:

I think @kolla summed it up nicely in this line
Quote:
Give AmigaOS leading features.

I know it's hard to see it but AmigaOS still has some mojo left in it to support "leading features". It's not the only one in this regard, BeOS/Haiku has some mojo too.


I read that as very tongue in cheek. As they say, "the devil is in the details".

Quote:

"And what's to stop Microsoft or Apple or Google from copying your leading features?" my own evil twin asks.
Absolutely nothing. I may have some patents in place but they'll just pay my fee and go on implementing the new features.

But for a couple of sweet glorious years or so, AmigaOS would be a leading operating system.


Those years have come and gone, sadly.

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TheBilgeRat 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 17:44:45
#491 ]
Member
Joined: 20-May-2010
Posts: 36
From: Unknown

Quote:


Since you mentioned Thierry and there's a chance he's reading this. I've found something for him.

http://www.impulse-corp.co.uk/products/industrial-communications/industrial-serial/serial-cards/pci_express-serial-cards/cp_118e_a_i.htm

Oh man! Think of the wardialer you could set up with that!

Last edited by TheBilgeRat on 14-May-2015 at 05:46 PM.

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BigD 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 18:01:31
#492 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 11-Aug-2005
Posts: 7349
From: UK

@TheBilgeRat

Quote:
So, amigaOS? targets no viable commodity hardware platform. No money or mindshare. A tiny userbase. A community that cannot agree what is "teh true" legacy of Amiga (hardware? Software?) and constantly filled with grandiose ideas about rising Phoenix-like from the ashes to take over the world. Show me millenials who even know what Amiga was/is. There aren't any. I was 14 when I saw my first amiga. I was 18 when I could afford one for myself. CBM folded when I was 19. I'm betting money that I'm on the younger side of most Amiga users.


The legacy is AmigaOS as it has always been, the clue is in the name

You've lost faith in the Amiga NG machines offering you anything in the future so it begs the question: What are you doing on an Amiga thread? Buy yourself a copy of Amiga Forever and enjoy life

_________________
"Art challenges technology. Technology inspires the art."
John Lasseter, Co-Founder of Pixar Animation Studios

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TheBilgeRat 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 18:46:21
#493 ]
Member
Joined: 20-May-2010
Posts: 36
From: Unknown


Quote:

The legacy is AmigaOS as it has always been, the clue is in the name


The name means nothing. What about AROS? Morphos? They claim lineage as well.
The clue is that I can sit down at my A4000 or A500, turn it on, and enjoy AmigaOS for what it is, not some imaginary what could be.

Quote:

You've lost faith in the Amiga NG machines offering you anything in the future so it begs the question: What are you doing on an Amiga thread? Buy yourself a copy of Amiga Forever and enjoy life


I'm enjoying my amigas as they were meant to be enjoyed - on real hardware made by Commodore with the software intended for them...purchasing modern hardware made for them (thank you Jens and others!). I don't put much stock in faith

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Thorham 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 19:51:49
#494 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 5-Mar-2014
Posts: 183
From: Unknown

Quote:
BigD wrote:

The legacy is AmigaOS as it has always been, the clue is in the name

No, it's the hardware. The OS is not relevant to what Amiga is.

See? Just like TheBilgeRat said: No agreement.

Last edited by Thorham on 14-May-2015 at 07:53 PM.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 22:04:44
#495 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3751
From: Germany

@KimmoK

Quote:

KimmoK wrote:
@cdimauro

Out of curiosity: How much would your i7 system cost today?

(I always failed to buy intel system, because their high price. I've ended up with slow AMD HW with slow linux.)

That's the complete BoM of my PC, took this morning after a quick search from the German marketplace of a "female warrior" site:

CPU Intel i7-4970K: 344,36
Intel SATA SSD 730 240GB: 180,87
Motherboard Gigabyte H97M-D3H: 93,53
Crucial Ballistix Sport 16GB DDR3 1600Mhz: 122,90
Case Zalman T3 Mini M-ATX: 24,96
Seasonic S12II-430 Power supply: 85,79
TOTAL: 852,41

I spent a lot less thanks to some advantages of my current job , but such configuration is a bit exaggerated for a people which wants to focus on emulation (plus regular computer usage).

I think that with an i3-4370, which runs at 3,8Ghz, can give a little bit less but comparable results. Buying some more economic SSD, motherboard, case, power supply, and 4GB of memory, can bring down the amount to 500 or even less.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 22:06:25
#496 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3751
From: Germany

@BrianHoskins

Quote:

BrianHoskins wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

cdimauro wrote:

That's why for me any Amiga related stuff is just hobby. Fun.


Yep, enjoy it for what it is. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. Even enjoying OS4 for what it is can fit into that sentiment quite nicely. I think it is a huge achievement for the community that now, in 2015, we have a developing platform. It is to be celebrated and long may it continue. I will try to support it for as long as it does.

But talk of AmigaOS world domination? Well it would be great to see AmigaOS get what she deserved but it sounds more plausible that someone invents a machine for transporting between parallel universes. In which case maybe we can find a way to satisfy our wish somewhere in the infinity.


I agree. I can understand dreams, but "world dominantion" is a bit, ehr, insane to me.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 22:15:54
#497 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3751
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
@BCP: I don't have OS4, so I cannot judge, but I think that stuff like "responsiveness" is hardly noticeable with nowadays hardware.


My SAM has a better responsiveness than an Intel Dual Core / Window$.

I have no SAM, so I cannot compare them. But WinUAE on a good PC can even outperform your SAM, according to some tests which were made (mostly by pavlor).
Quote:
I would say instead that nowadays hardware often hides poor software design and programming, not the OS4 case.

OS4 was and is stuck to 30 years ago, so a comparison with a modern platform doesn't make sense because more complex software requires more advanced hardware.

Regarding the software design, talking about the Amiga o.s. I already expressed my opinion in another thread : .it was bad by design , and that's why every post-Amiga o.s. suffers of the same limits.

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 22:19:12
#498 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3751
From: Germany

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:
Windows 8.1 x64 boots in 3 seconds


Just for my curiosity, is the desktop really operative and responsive?

Window$ used to cheat a lot especially on booting, showing a not usable desktop and then continuing loading for some more time ...

Consider that after 3 seconds I've to enter my pin to login to my account. It takes 1 second to type the pin, and after another one I've my desk and I can already launch applications (and even surf: I usually immediately open Opera with its saved session/tabs, including GMail which is pretty huge).

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cdimauro 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 14-May-2015 22:23:07
#499 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 29-Oct-2012
Posts: 3751
From: Germany

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@Leo

Quote:

Same happens with AmigaOS4 when lots of apps/commodities are put in WBStartup...


Not really, WB startup is done in seconds, it's the least part of a typical boot time. Whereas a typical windows startup can grind away for ages, even on more modern machines, that can ofcourse be optimised, many users don't know how to or that they can however.

Believe me: Windows 8.1 Update 1 is extremely fast at booting/loading. Microsoft made an excellent optimization work, starting with 7. And Windows 10 will be faster (and takes less resources also, both on disk and RAM).

That's normal since the main target is the mobile market. So all such mobile-oriented optimizations benefited also to the "desktop" usage.

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agami 
Re: How to make AmigaOS a leading operating system?
Posted on 15-May-2015 6:48:29
#500 ]
Super Member
Joined: 30-Jun-2008
Posts: 1716
From: Melbourne, Australia

@thread, and particularly @TheBilgeRat and @kolla

Part of me is sad that y'all can't see the gems hidden within AmigaOS.

But another part of me is pleased because I know non of you bit@#es (said with affection) is going to beat me to market.


_________________
All the way, with 68k

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