@Dirk-B

Most practical thing said (written) in a long time.

Not just the gearing AmigaOS toward a hobby like toy/lego robotics. The first statement,

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Look back in history...

Look, learn. Don't live in the past.

Last edited by agami on 19-Feb-2015 at 04:00 AM.

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All the way, with 68k

As to a plan for having AmigaOS in the top 5 of that list you referenced, that is not that hard:

Get someone to write a devious piece of malware masquerading as a cookie that will overwrite the user agent settings and have Internet Explorer, Firefox, Safari, Chrome, and Chromium all report that they are OWB running on Amiga OS 4.1

But seriously, getting AmigaOS to be in the top 5 list is not impossible. It would just require more money than even X1000 owners are prepared to part with ;)

That and time. Millions of $ can reduce time but certain things are just not compressible. With US$7M I can get AmigaOS to be in the top 5 operating systems, and not just by web statistics. It would take about 24 months. If you wanted to shrink it down to 12 months it would require US$17M. It could not be done in under 12 months.

So if EU is dishing-out that kind of mula let me know so I can get cracking.

_________________
All the way, with 68k

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Dirk-B wrote: Look back in history... We where young when we had a game-computer... Ok, now this may sound stupid but why not make a dev-computer for the young of today. They could experiment with amigaos and try out many free progs. Infact we would need experiment-suites like we had mecano, lego and electronic-boards back in the time. A computer to experiment with, very sheep. Something you should buy in a toy-store for very young nerd's.

Yes! Get these kids programming with a modernized and cheap 68k Amiga Cherry Pi (I like Cherry better than Raspberry). One of the reasons for the Amiga's success was the ease of use and low resources of the 68k which made it affordable for the masses. We could bring a modernized version back with FGPA, an ASIC and 68k AmigaOS development. Work toward standardizing the APIs between the 68k and PPC Amigas and such a project would help development, sells and acceptance of the higher end PPC and AmigaOS 4.

@hotrod
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hotrod wrote: @KingKong I haven't read the answers but the way that I look at it AOS absolutely must have support for more RAM (64-bit), support for multiple cores, memory-protection and OpenGL. Also better support for printers/scanners are very much needed. When that is done it'll be ready for use by single users for more up-to-date games and developers can port/make more games, develop software more easily and it'll be a lot better for users as well. This must be the most important step because cheap hw isn't the only answer, it'll bring a few old Amigans back but not a whole lot more than that. Step number two would be the hw-part. Some form of better availability for cheaper hw. I would love to have AOS 4.1 FE on my PowerMac but also WinUAE with support for more RAM would be an alternative. I still believe that the OS runing natively is the best experience though. This would be the start... bring AOS up-to-date and make it available for cheaper alternatives. These are the two things that I know makes people hesitate when it comes to using AOS 4.1 FE. It needs to be installed and impress people so that it'll be mentioned in press, on you tube etc. In its current shape it's still lacking. What's also very important and already worked on is applications that people expects to find for any OS. Be able to watch those youtube-clips easily (in the webbrowser for the first impression, they can discover smTube later), be able to fire up LibreOffice, be able to use torrent etc... Then comes the part about the design of the OS. It also has to look good. The feeling is the most important part IMO (that's why I'm using it still) but it must look both modern and appealing. I'm very picky when it comes to how an OS look and for some reason I like they way AOS 4.x looks but there sure are room for improvements... there always are with any OS. Windows has always been strong when it comes to that part and it's common knowledge that people buy what is appealing to the eye, that's a fact. How to make it all happen? Well... that's the tricky part.

Yeah, memory protection, multiprocessing and OpenGL would be nice and should come but Amiga 1000 has 256–512 KB (8.5 MB maximum) RAM ... and was quite impressive.

2 GB RAM and 32 bit are still good enough for most applications - at home and for most devices (inklusive smartphones) and computers for industry and military. Not to forget quite fast SSD which can store 1 TB and more. One could use more than 2 GB RAM with extended memory objects (ExtMem), see Breaking the Memory Barrier. 32 bit enables effient CPUs and safes memory. Modern video cards - quite impressive and not so expensive - can boost the performance.

Where do you really need 64 bit and 4, 8 or 16 GB? Supercomputers, oversized games and professionell video editing and computer-generated films. Yeah, in the future Amiga OS must be 64 bit but for now 32 bit can be an advantage: think of
- more cores and less energy consumption on a smaller and therfore cheaper die
- a SoC with 1 or 2 GB RAM, perhaps with ECC. (see also KISS, Universal-CPU/SoC and MINIX 3 - sorry, in German).

A 32 bit Amiga could be still quite impressive and even more so, if it is very secure, reliable, cheap and fast enough ... and that's possible.

How to make it all happen?
- make Amiga OS 4 open source,
- provide possibility to use Linux and Windows programms,
- ready to use installation with browser, email and LibreOffice and so on,
- Amiga notebooks and smartphones - yeah, PowerPC and no kidding ... just make it very secure and reliable

It's time now - think of the NSA-scandal and backdoors everywhere - a real good Amiga could sell in millions, later in billions ... and that's where the money will come from and why Amiga OS could become open source. There's more than enough performance for Amiga, cheap and high-quality hardware is available.

What's with Linux? Why Amiga and not Linux? Well, tell me. RTOS could be an argument and to be real user-friendly. Amiga OS must be ready to use and highly secure, the whole system (from chip micro code over the BIOS/firmeware to the OS and most used programs) must have bottom up checksums and a secure checksum-scanner - for this you need own hardware, standard notebooks won't do ... and that's the chance.

Some postings in German (see further links inside also):

Sehr bedenklich
Wie sicher ist das wirklich?

eine Frage und die Lösung
Das ist genial + Der Erfolg ist quasi garantiert

mehr Datensicherheit und Transparenz gefordert
weitere Ideen
SSD kann sich selbst lesen und beschreiben
weitere Gedanken + zusätzliche Gedanken

These are quite great thoughts and there's even more from me to read (mostly in German, sorry).

@KingKong

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Amiga 1000 has 256–512 KB (8.5 MB maximum) RAM ... and was quite impressive.

Yes, but at a time when most computers had 64k of RAM.

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2 GB RAM and 32 bit are still good enough for most applications

Maybe for a single application, but you how about when running several at the same time? ;)

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Yeah, in the future Amiga OS must be 64 bit but for now 32 bit can be an advantage

It really takes an Amiga user to pretend being stuck in the past is an advantage :D

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A 32 bit Amiga could be still quite impressive and even more so, if it is very secure, reliable, cheap and fast enough

A lot of "if" statements

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... and that's possible.

Really?

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How to make it all happen? - make Amiga OS 4 open source,

Making something open source won't necessarily solve anything

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- provide possibility to use Linux and Windows programms,

How? And why not just use Linux or Windows instead?

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- Amiga notebooks and smartphones

Notebooks would be nice, smartphones not so much

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a real good Amiga could sell in millions, later in billions

Hilarious! :D

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How to make it all happen? - make Amiga OS 4 open source,

You won't make it open source because there isn't a single company having exclusive rights to every components:

- some components are based on old AmigaOS 68k components which are licenced from Amiga inc. ?
- some components have been created by third party and used on licence: Roadshow, just to name one

I could go on and on... There's no way you could come up with an open source OS4 with all needed components.

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a real good Amiga could sell in millions, later in billions

Seeing Amiga sold a few millions in its whole lifetime, that there are maybe hundreds of active users today, I think that making it available on Pi(2) like devices for very little could maybe bring you a thousand users, let's be optimistic, ten thousand.

But really, millions ?

It took Linux a decade or two to reach million users, and Linux is free, open source, and available everywhere... It is also secure and reliable, unlike AmigaOS which may crash at any tilme because some bad app may have corrupted some memory...

What makes you think anyone outside this community would be interested in AmigaOS apart for running a game or two ?

_________________
http://www.warpdesign.fr/

@KingKong

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2 GB RAM and 32 bit are still good enough for most applications

What a nice excuse. We have a limit - God bless the limit ;)

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One could use more than 2 GB RAM with extended memory objects (ExtMem), see Breaking the Memory Barrier.

Remember old DOS days with extended memory and other patchworks to use more than the 640K? This is nearly the same and it sucks. It would be much better to not have such limitations.

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32 bit enables effient CPUs and safes memory.

So you assume the 64bit CPUs are not so efficient? Regarding memory, you surely meant 32bit *saves* memory. If yes, how much do you save in 32 bit mode? How expensive is memory nowadays? If you really meant "safes" then please elaborate ;)

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Modern video cards - quite impressive and not so expensive - can boost the performance.

Just like on any other platform. No idea why you would need AmigaOS there, especially since the support for modern graphics cards on AmigaOS is rather weak.

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A 32 bit Amiga could be still quite impressive and even more so, if it is very secure, reliable, cheap and fast enough ... and that's possible.

32bit Amiga will not impress anyone in todays world. What advantages would it have when compared to typical desktops or game consoles? Very secure? Come on, AmigaOS is highly insecure by design. Reliable? Any app can crash whole system easily. Cheap? There are no cheap Amiga computers right now. Fast enough? The footprint of the AmigaOS is maybe lower than in case of windows, OS X or Linux, but once you add all the security and reliability, memory protection and so on, the footprint of AmigaOS will be same or even larger than in case of other systems.

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- make Amiga OS 4 open source,

it will not help. Why should it?

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- provide possibility to use Linux and Windows programms,

As other said - if you really need that, then there is no need to use AmigaOS at all. Just use Linux and/or Windows instead.

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- ready to use installation with browser, email and LibreOffice and so on,

and suddenly whole OS will not be that light and tiny. Besides, why don't you take a linux distribution with ready to use installation with browser, email, LibreOffice and so on?

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- Amiga notebooks and smartphones - yeah,

Notebooks maybe, but AmigaOS is not suited for smartphones.

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a real good Amiga could sell in millions, later in billions ... and that's where the money will come from and why Amiga OS could become open source.

Wake up.

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What's with Linux? Why Amiga and not Linux? Well, tell me. RTOS could be an argument

Kind of stupid argument, since AmigaOS is not RTOS.

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and to be real user-friendly.

AmigaOS is not as user-friendly as you think.

@KingKong
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Amiga could be still quite impressive and even more so, if it is very secure, reliable, cheap and fast enough

but it's not...

@Manu

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I can understand that perfectly, what I don't understand is the desire to pumping money in the lousiest price/performance ratio platform ever possible and place the fate of the whole OS on that.

I agree.

Tho from what I understand; Trevors investment in the PPC platform is more of a hobby nature.
Making a relativly fast PPC platform to use AOS4, and making them available for those intrested in the same.

From my own point of view I agree with what Danwood posted;

Quote:

When my A1XE started dying I heard about the X1000, I was initially very interested... until I saw the price. I understand niche hardware is expensive, but there's no way I can justify 3,000 euros for a hobby machine. And if even I, a life-long Amiga fan isn't interested, then you've got no chance of attracting new users with the price/performance ratio.

I was also somewhat intrested in the hardware platform if it had a reasonable pricelevel, even if the OS capabilities is somewhat lacking. Thats nostalgica for you. But once the pricetag crosses a few 100 bucks, then you wake up from the rosetinted dream, and apply reality to the equation.

The reason why I was initially more intrested in AOS than MorphOS was availablility of new hardware. As I said; browsing ebay for hardware is less tempting than to get it directly from an Amiga vendor (I realise it might be an irrational stance).
Over time Ive gone from "intrested" to "bystander" as the realisation of price vs performance ratio sinks in.
That said; I dont feel the need to belittle peoples choice of "hobby", or choice of platform for their computing needs.
After some time Ive settled on sticking to Wintel for my main computing needs, and tinkering with my A1200 for hobby purposes (Viper 060 looks intresting).

But back to your original point;
Can anyone claim complete sanity when we dabble in relativly low performing OSs with lacking features; be it AOS, AROS or MorphOS
The level of insanity can only be quantified by the money you "waste", but isnt that true for many hobbies?

@Leo

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Seeing Amiga sold a few millions in its whole lifetime, that there are maybe hundreds of active users today, I think that making it available on Pi(2) like devices for very little could maybe bring you a thousand users, let's be optimistic, ten thousand. But really, millions ? It took Linux a decade or two to reach million users, and Linux is free, open source, and available everywhere... It is also secure and reliable, unlike AmigaOS which may crash at any tilme because some bad app may have corrupted some memory... What makes you think anyone outside this community would be interested in AmigaOS apart for running a game or two ?

In my rather humble opinion a 'port' or a 'from scratch' developement of some Amiga-inspired OS for a Raspberry Pi c.s. might attract way more interest then the current H/W intensive aproach. The world has changed and we all know that. No good trying to revive the past.

In all of its lifetime Linux has yet to claim a recognisable portion of the market for desktop systems. This market is still and will continue to be dominated by MicroSoft and, albeit to a far lesser extent, Apple. That will NOT change anytime soon.

But the market that Raspberry c.s. has opened is very worthwhile tapping in to and the Amiga OS, whatever flavor, is darn well suited to fullfill the 'fun'-factor on said systems. The great fun is induced by the extreme modularity of the os of which really every component can be changed ar replaced without ill effects. Linux, and many other x86 inspired oses otoh, are IN MY OPINION far to monolythic for the funseeking enthousiast.
As I've heard of late (but quite before this thread had taken off) that AROS is available for Raspberry, I'm rather tempted to go that way. Just for fun. Long hours of unrivalled fun.

My 2 rabbit droppings.

OldFart

_________________
Life is a waste of time.
Tim eis a waste of life.
Get wasted all the time
and you'll have the time of your life!

@KingKong
We just need a few million users like yourself, then AmigaOS will certainly be a viable product
---
On a more serious note.. People have to realise it's just a hobby OS for most of us. Still people can create healthy businesses around a hobby product (Hyperion, AmigaKit, Aeon, Acube etc.) but for us, the users, we have to forget about world domination.

To get a decent userbase should have been the top priority but IMO too many wrong moves has been taken for that to happen now. Hyperion has failed to deliver an OS capable of running on hardware that is cheap and powerful enough to appeal to anyone outside of the Amiga community (and even to many old Amigans) instead they have supported expensive custom build products which many can't afford or won't be justify the cost of.

PPC has taken only one direction since Apple left the building and we should have seen the writing on the wall years ago. Radical changes could have been made before the X1000 was build but instead we got a prestige project no one can afford.

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@OldFart

Didn't seem to take Raspberry Pi that long... found this article dated yesterday.

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/tech/news/a629835/raspberry-pi-microcomputer-has-sold-more-than-5-million-units.html

If you think back over the decades the user base, or rather more accurately, the number of people of all ages who have used a computer and/or continue to do so is magnitudes larger than was in say 1980, 1990, 2000.

Computer literacy continues to fall too.. but thats an entirely different subject I could moan about for hours lol

Last edited by djrikki on 19-Feb-2015 at 01:20 PM.

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@OldFart

Quote:

In my rather humble opinion a 'port' or a 'from scratch' developement of some Amiga-inspired OS for a Raspberry Pi c.s. might attract way more interest then the current H/W intensive aproach. The world has changed and we all know that. No good trying to revive the past.

i dont have a pi but so far i know aros on pi is rather advanced and has a motivated maintainer. i dont know how much native hardware is supported, but its for everybody to find out himself. so, what you speak of, is actually available.

@Troels

Quote:

PPC has taken only one direction since Apple left the building and we should have seen the writing on the wall years ago. Radical changes could have been made before the X1000 was build but instead we got a prestige project no one can afford.

except that everybody who dared to mention it and similar issues, that have been mindlessly invested into, was labelled a troll. you can thank yourself for current outcome.

@djrikki

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Computer literacy continues to fall too.. but thats an entirely different subject I could moan about for hours lol

Luckily 'computer science' has been back on the UK National Curriculum from September last year, so finally kids are being taught coding etc. at school again like we did in the 80s/90s.

http://www.markitwrite.com/teaching-kids-code-uk-national-curriculum/

@danwood

Interesting article. I was referring more to things like, how to use windows explorer, print screen, do system maintainence, cut, copy, paste ya know the simple stuff some ppl find so difficult to master. Afraid to explore.

Last edited by djrikki on 19-Feb-2015 at 09:20 PM.

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@wawa
True, but most also where trolls There is different ways to state things. Even if it seems obvious to you it might not do so to others.
Personally I have always (at least for many years) said I couldn't give a xxxx about which CPU was used. It was always about availability and price for me, what runs the OS doesn't matter as I'm no developer.

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@djrikki

I see your point. Many people I know have only very basic level of knowledge of computers.
But the modern OS's has been made so streamlined and userfriendly that there are no need for deeper knowledge of computers or its programs.

My parents didnt have computers. I grew up with C64 and Amiga, so I was accustomed having to use "turbotapes", make small programs in C64 basic, assembly on Amiga and mess around with startup sequences.
Then on the first Wintel autoexec.bat etc.
The people born 10 years after me and you have absolutly no need for all that with the introduction of "plug and play".

Even I find it somewhat hard to return to the "retroscene" dabbeling with AOS after being away for ...15-20 years.

Last edited by Overflow on 19-Feb-2015 at 09:33 PM.

@KingKong

Ok see it like this then. You got the cheap hw (whatever it is) and you'll make a demonstration for a group of people who knows nothing about the Amiga or only knows about the A500 which is the majority of people. How are you goint to convince them to buy the Amiga? "Look, here I run Final Writer 97 while I play a MP3 with AmigaAmp and...". Yeah, everyone has seen that before to death. Even if it would be Libre Office noone would care.

Or let's say that there was a demonstration of AOS 4.x and it looked great, had some nice apps shown at a slick presentation, all on affordable hardware. People bought it and eventually began to notice the lack of memoryprotection, lack of possibility to add more RAM and so on. Do you think that they would recommend anyone to get an Amiga? No they would say that it's complete crap and that is the last thing that the Amiga needs.

You can also look at the Wii for example. The OS is very limited and seeing a DSI on it brings a smile and makes me think of AOS but that is when runing homebrews. What made it appealing? The controllers and the idea + the price. All it ever promised to deliver was games or at least I had no clue that I would be able to do more when I bought it, it was just a bonus. Point is, it had something that the competition didn't that made it appealing to people. It isn't easy to find something about AOS that is so much better compared to the competition, not even with very cheap hardware. FE on emulation is good but because of the RAM-limitation and no info in press (that I've found) the friends that I spoke to didn't buy it regardless of it being cheap. AOS is seen as a toy to tinker with if you feal that you want to and the majority of people don't feal that they want to.

For those wanting a custom OS Linux is available for free... I don't really know who AOS is for other than those who never left or those who have an interest for the Amiga for some reason. Most people are happy about Windows and noone here can convince anyone to switch to AOS because there are a lack of arguments as to why. "Yes you can do that but it's a bit tricky" or "no you can't but maybe in the future". That's the current situation. And even if someone plays around with it and would like it (few people) the next obsticle will be the hardware. Price/power compared to a PC. Simple as that.

Cloanto confirms transfers of Commodore/Amiga copyrights
Cloanto confirms transfers of Commodore/Amiga copyrights

What does that mean?

Does Cloanto and Hyperion Entertainment now own pretty much of AmigaOS? That would be great.

I still won't give up the open source idea. AmigaOS being Open source could help development and secure the ever-lasting existence of AmigaOS.

AmigaOS becoming open source could gelp to spread it on other hardware. It could inspire hardware maker like A-EON. In the long run the licence fees could become quite high (if Amiga becomes a leading operating system) - so it would be a good idea for Amiga hardware makers, to make use of the current situation and promote the release of AmigaOS to open source.

Then from where will the money for further OS development come? Well, Linux copes somehow. I like this idea of an super secure and high reliable RTOS very much and for this some (EU, military, industry) would pay pretty much - just think of the costly MS-licences. Obviously successful hardware sellers should donate some money for the AmigaOS development but I think they will. There could be a little percentage on each hardware with AmigaOS sold donated to an AmigaOS development fund.

It's just possible and if not soon ... then when?