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      /  Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
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Trixie 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 10:43:31
#161 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1939
From: Czech Republic

@blizz1220

The thing is that this discussion has grown well out of proportion. In the funny context of hobbyist operating systems such as AmigaOS and MorphOS, the appropriation of Piru's work is an act of gross indecency rather than sheer "criminal activity". Hyperion haven't handled the situation very well (and Ben's legal defence isn't helping: think of a bull in a china shop), but neither has Piru and some of his supporters. The focus should be on remedying the problem ASAP, not on constantly incriminating the wrongdoer.

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blizz1220 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 11:01:38
#162 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2013
Posts: 437
From: Unknown

@Trixie

I think this has more to do with past grudges.

And I hate to say it , but if I was in that kind of situation ,
being accused of said "wrongdoing" I would sadly think
about my legal response first not depend on mercy from
other side (to clarify : sides Piru - Hyperion).

The side holding the sword is Piru I'm sad to say.Considering
he's a very smart person I hope this will be resolved soon.

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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 11:12:01
#163 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11390
From: Norway

@blizz1220

Quote:
The side holding the sword is Piru I'm sad to say.Considering he's a very smart person I hope this will be resolved soon.


I just find it funny, in some way that Piru using patented work and calming it for himself (almost as the inventor of it) is somewhat funny, and then complain when his work being copied.

But on the other hand, I expected more of Hyperion, then just copy things, but maybe its way to getting back at MorphOS developers. I don't know.

All I see it as is damaging to etch party, and unnecessary. In my option.

There is no need for AmigaOS to stay compatible with MorphOS, btree might have implemented in different way, so what if you reinvent the wheel at least you can at least clime it's your invention.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2015 at 11:18 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 13-Sep-2015 at 11:15 AM.

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Kronos 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 11:30:59
#164 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 2209
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

What do you think is "patented" here ? Surely not btree (that algorithm predates SW-patents).

And even IF it was patented, and even IF Piru had violated that patent, still wouldn't change a bit about wether his headers can be copyrighted or wether that copyright had been violated by Hyperion.

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umisef 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 11:35:05
#165 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1675
From: Melbourne, Australia

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
I just find it funny, in some way that Piru using patented work


Piru created a library that provides AVL trees and red-black trees. The AVL tree paper was published in 1962, and the red-black tree one in 1972. Even if either of those structures had ever been patented (which, to the best of my knowledge, they haven't), those patents would have expired last century.

Quote:
and then complain when his work being copied


The operative word here being "copied". Hence the discussion about copyright.

Piru independently implemented previously published data structures and algorithms.
Thore copied Piru's header files and autodocs.

See the difference?

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jorit2 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:01:15
#166 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 235
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote:
@jorit2

First of all, in the US on appeal a decision to DENY copy protection to API's was reformed.

We will see if and when the Oracle versus Google case gets heard by the Supreme Court (although it primarily deals with the issue if you can copyright a programming language i.e. JAVA).


Well the issue at hand in the case you referred to was also (mainly) about a programming language, the (Base) SAS Programming language.

And there's not only the current, ongoing dispute Google/Oracle, there's also Sony vs Bleem to name but one.

Quote:

So in the US the current situation is that API's ARE subject to copyright protection.

Moreover, reimplementing a singe API or a few API's is one thing, doing this on a substantial scale is another.

Imagine a party were to reimplement substantially all of iOS API's to the extent that it exhibits a large degree of compatibility and market it to manufacturers of mobile devices. I am pretty sure you would be in court in no time.

There is a WTO panel decision that such action is "unjustifiably prejudicial" to the copyright holder.

You can draw your own conclusions, I won't take the bait ...


Why are we not surprised.

Basically: you don't want to take a position regarding accusations you've been throwing around for years ?

Evert

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jorit2 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:05:42
#167 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 235
From: Unknown

@Hyperionmp

Quote:

Hyperionmp wrote:
@umisef

I will not take the bait since you are not qualified to discuss these issues unless you have a law degree and specialize in copyright law. A career change which is entirely up to you.


You make it sound like you're some kind of uber-race, and we're just a bunch of stupid mortals not capable of understanding what you're trying to say.

You, legal specialists basically discussing and deciding on the fate of what we, IT-professionals produce ...

The usual condescendence.

Evert

Last edited by jorit2 on 13-Sep-2015 at 12:38 PM.

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terminills 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:12:46
#168 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1388
From: Unknown

@jorit2


https://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/Sony_v_Bleem.htm

There was also


SONY COMPUTER ENTERTAINMENT, INC.
v. CONNECTIX CORPORATION

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/people/tfisher/IP/2000%20Sony%20Abridged.pdf

and

Sega Enterprises Ltd. and Accolade Inc

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F2/977/977.F2d.1510.92-15655.html

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Boot_WB 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:19:34
#169 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@umisef

Quote:

umisef wrote:
by umisef on 13-Sep-2015 5:45:23

@Hyperionmp

(As an aside: You might want to re-word the SDK announcement as well. "Largely successful" does not mean what you think it means; Almost the opposite, in fact. What you are after is "hugely successful" or "enormously successful").


Spoilsport.

It was so much funnier with the original text.

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Cyborg 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:38:36
#170 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 26-Nov-2003
Posts: 422
From: Germany

@umisef

Quote:
(As an aside: You might want to re-word the SDK announcement as well. "Largely successful" does not mean what you think it means; Almost the opposite, in fact. What you are after is "hugely successful" or "enormously successful").


Thank you for the heads-up. At least, this time it wasn't me wording the press release :P

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Boot_WB 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:38:37
#171 ]
Super Member
Joined: 14-Feb-2006
Posts: 1134
From: Kingston upon Hull, UK

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@blizz1220

Quote:
The side holding the sword is Piru I'm sad to say.Considering he's a very smart person I hope this will be resolved soon.


I just find it funny, in some way that Piru using patented work and calming it for himself (almost as the inventor of it) is somewhat funny, and then complain when his work being copied.

But on the other hand, I expected more of Hyperion, then just copy things, but maybe its way to getting back at MorphOS developers. I don't know.

All I see it as is damaging to etch party, and unnecessary. In my option.

There is no need for AmigaOS to stay compatible with MorphOS, btree might have implemented in different way, so what if you reinvent the wheel at least you can at least clime it's your invention.


That seems an odd position.
The one thing which is indisputably ok is to reimplement the same API, data structures, function names etc to maintain compatibility

What is not ok is copy/pasting documentation - whether that is help files, manuals, header files, or anything else that someone else wrote (and released as copyrighted material).

The EU ruling simply clarifies that function names etc cannot be protected by copyright even when contained within a copyrighted work.
Also that by necessity two independent documents (such as header files) describing two independent implementations of the same idea will by necessity be similar, since they functionally describe the same thing.

The ruling is (according to the preamble) to allow interoperability, competition, and technical innovation - which could not be achieved if function names, etc were given the same protections as, for example, character names in a work of fiction.

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terminills 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 12:55:22
#172 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1388
From: Unknown

@Cyborg

OT.


I noticed your sig now says

"Regards, Cyborg.
AmigaOS4 development team member"


Does this mean you now make all of the decisions on the direction of AmigaOS4?

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umisef 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:06:43
#173 ]
Super Member
Joined: 19-Jun-2005
Posts: 1675
From: Melbourne, Australia

@jorit2

Quote:
Basically: you don't want to take a position regarding accusations you've been throwing around for years ?


Not that that position would be in any way relevant regarding the current issue, of course. There is a fundamental difference between reimplementing an API or other functionality (which the SAS case was about) on one hand, and (close to) verbatim copying of the declarations and documentation which describes said API on the other.

In fact, when reading the ruling regarding the SAS case, two mildly relevant things stand out:

(a) The court stressing that WPS was created without WPL having access to the source code. In fact, in (43) the court explicitly mentions that accessing and reproducing parts of the source code relating to data formats, programming languages (or, by extension, APIs) may be considered a violation of the original author's IP rights, and

(b) In (67), the court states that individual facts (words, numbers, mathematical concepts --- i.e. here: constant names, constant values, data structures and function prototypes) are not covered by copyright, but that arranging them in a particular manner is an act of creation, resulting in an work which is greater than the mere collection of facts. Which would appear to describe the header files, and even more so the autodocs. And in (70) the court states that, were such a greater work reproduced without permission, it would indeed constitute a copyright violation.


So it seems as if the quoting of this particular case to the service provider was less an attempt to actually support Hyperion's position (seeing as the little bit of relevance it does have does in fact do the opposite), but rather a mere attempt at dazzle and bluster. I wonder whether Ben was ready to pull out his trademark "I won't discuss this with you, as I am a fancy lawyer and you are a mere human" to the hosting company's representative....

Last edited by umisef on 13-Sep-2015 at 01:08 PM.

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number6 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:17:36
#174 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10867
From: In the village

@terminills

Quote:
"Regards, Cyborg.
AmigaOS4 development team member"


Quote:
Does this mean you now make all of the decisions on the direction of AmigaOS4?


As you know Steve Solie's tag on Hyperion's forums still reads:
Quote:
AmigaOS Development Team Lead


I would assume "leader" trumps "member".

But more importantly (and you know this as well), Costel is:

A director of Hyperion Entertainment

I would think that alludes to a more administrative role since the non-bankruptcy of Hyperion Entertainment.

#6

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megol 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:21:50
#175 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 17-Mar-2008
Posts: 344
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@blizz1220

Quote:
The side holding the sword is Piru I'm sad to say.Considering he's a very smart person I hope this will be resolved soon.


I just find it funny, in some way that Piru using patented work and calming it for himself (almost as the inventor of it) is somewhat funny, and then complain when his work being copied.


He's not using patented work and the question is about COPYRIGHT - not patents.
He didn't claim to be the inventor of the algorithms either.

Quote:

But on the other hand, I expected more of Hyperion, then just copy things, but maybe its way to getting back at MorphOS developers. I don't know.


Getting back?!? Are you for real?

Quote:

All I see it as is damaging to etch party, and unnecessary. In my option.

There is no need for AmigaOS to stay compatible with MorphOS, btree might have implemented in different way, so what if you reinvent the wheel at least you can at least clime it's your invention.


Your use of "invention" isn't correct.

But then you just showed the world that you don't know what you are talking about.

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jorit2 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:34:34
#176 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 22-Apr-2011
Posts: 235
From: Unknown

@umisef

Quote:

So it seems as if the quoting of this particular case to the service provider was less an attempt to actually support Hyperion's position (seeing as the little bit of relevance it does have does in fact do the opposite), but rather a mere attempt at dazzle and bluster. I wonder whether Ben was ready to pull out his trademark "I won't discuss this with you, as I am a fancy lawyer and you are a mere human" to the hosting company's representative....


I fully agree (also with the non-quoted part)

I actually got interested in the actual case since the message from Ben to the service provider, was well ... vintage Ben: Blowing hot air, the suspicion ("dazzle and bluster") you phrased above , and obviously, I did find the "there was no infringement" hard to believe.

I'm actually still not sure, far from it, that Ben drew the correct conclusions from this document. I still think that one should conclude from this document that header files, not as a format, but the actual files, are very well subject to copyright.

I took me a while to lift the remote relevance of this case to his argument out of this document, trying to step in his shoes.

For the record: I did actually edit my post about this document. In a first version, I tried to subscribe to his point of view, expressed surprise about the ruling. But that was a point of view i simply could not ... maintain. So I corrected a few minutes later.

Evert

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terminills 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 13:42:26
#177 ]
AROS Core Developer
Joined: 8-Mar-2003
Posts: 1388
From: Unknown

@number6

Quote:

As you know Steve Solie's tag on Hyperion's forums still reads:
Quote:

Quote:
AmigaOS Development Team Lead




ahh you're right... I had just assumed that was still there to feed his ego. ;)

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Trixie 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 14:23:40
#178 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1939
From: Czech Republic

@blizz1220

Quote:
if I was in that kind of situation, being accused of said "wrongdoing" I would sadly think about my legal response first not depend on mercy from other side

Despite all their clumsiness, Hyperion did issue an official apology via Costel Mincea, and a least tried to remedy the situation in SDK 53.30. Nobody depends on anybody's mercy here: that's not how problems are dealt with.

Quote:
The side holding the sword is Piru I'm sad to say.

Of course, I'm not saying he isn't. Hyperion is clearly at fault here, that goes without question.

Quote:
Considering he's a very smart person I hope this will be resolved soon.

He actually hasn't been acting very smart either but I, too, hope the situation will be resolved soon in a way acceptable for both parties.

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Trixie 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 14:30:16
#179 ]
Amiga Developer Team
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 1939
From: Czech Republic

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
There is no need for AmigaOS to stay compatible with MorphOS

Please tell that to the people who start a "Let AOS, MOS and AROS cooperate!" thread every month

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number6 
Re: Copyright Infringement in OS4 SDK
Posted on 13-Sep-2015 14:34:12
#180 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10867
From: In the village

@Trixie

Quote:
Please tell that to the people who start a "Let AOS, MOS and AROS cooperate!" thread every month


Well this one wasn't too bad:

Evert Carton speaks About Cooperation

#6

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