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PosterThread
TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:13:16
#441 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@kolla

Quote:

kolla wrote:
So it's a trimmed down Playstation3? At least it has more RAM :)


Nah, not even that! This "SPE" here is not the "Synergistic Processing Element" present in the Cell CPU's...

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:13:33
#442 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@AmigaBlitter

Quote:

AmigaBlitter wrote:
According to this document: http://www.freescale.com/files/training/doc/MULTICORE_MORE.pdf

The e500 v1 and v2 supports the FPU and the SPE (Page 28) Are this thing two different elements?

Floating - Point Embedded
Vector support - SPE


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerPC_e500

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:14:07
#443 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@broadblues

Quote:

broadblues wrote:
@cdimauro

Quote:

Whereas on AmigaOS4 it's unlikely (correct term here, I think ) that you'll see o.s. and applications recompiled with SPE support, so the trap emulation is used instead.


yes correct terminology , but I'm not I agree that it's unlikely, certainly every componemt of the OS won't be recompiled, but only certain components might require it, and as I pointed out earlier (or was it on another site?) each machine type already has thier own kernel, so build a dedicated kernel is 100% likely.

As to apps, surely it'll just be a matter of a compiler flag, so a fraction nmore complexity in a makefile. Wouldn't put me off doing it for sure. I already build a altivec special ffmpeg lib for blender, why not an SPE one?


The show stopper isn't really the OS itself (a different fork could theoretically be compiled as you suggest (but it doesn't make sense to make a fork only for a small and limited number of odd boards like this one), as was done with the Debian PowerPC vs. Debian PowerPCSPE they showed running on the "Tabor"), but the existing eco system of Amiga (68k and PPC) binaries that realistically will remain just as they are, forever.

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:14:27
#444 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@Ami603

Quote:

Ami603 wrote:
Regarding benchmark stuff, since this board has been shown running a very concrete set of applications under linux, one could replicate the same tests under linux on a sam460 board, that should give a clear idea of what to expect from such board, hardware wise.



...what to expect, in... (taram taram) ... a specially compiled LINUX! NOT OS4! OS4 will never be recompiled for this, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever! Linux is totally different in this regard!

And in the show they obviously used the GPU extensively for things like movie decoding/playback...

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:14:38
#445 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@Spectre660

Quote:

Spectre660 wrote:
@TRIPOS

I just did .


...and it landed in the same area as the Pegasos2 G4, or at least not very far off, right?



Well, not really, as it turns out...

"So, Tabor (single core) is as fast in MPlayer benchmark as:
SAM460EX 1.7 GHz (if we take comparable Linux result from post 367)
Pegasos 2 G4 700 MHz
[The Peg2 G4 was at 1,000 MHz, in other words ~43% faster]
Mac Mini G4 600 MHz"

Quite far off in other words. And once again, this was a special Linux, compiling OS4 and the entire Amiga eco system of apps to this odd little CPU isn't going to happen, and emulating the FPU in S/W to make the amiga environment run will not be very fast, so...

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:14:57
#446 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@itix

Quote:

Quote:
Jens:
"The P1022 is a dual-core CPU. Even if you were to emulate all FPU commands in software, you'd have a spare core to do that, as OS4 is still a single-core OS.

Besides, it's not all-incompatible, but throws a few illegal instruction traps on commands not implemented (according to one of the developers I talked to last saturday). That's about the same as what the 060 CPU does for unimplemented commands of the earlier members of the 68k group. Would you make fun of those who designed with the 060 back then? Surely not."


I dont understand Jens comment. The FPU is not an isolated co-procesessor but part of execution flow. If it was emulated on second core there would be great overhead to synchronize fpu instructions. His proposal can't work.


A quote from Andreas Wolf (3 years ago):

"Emulating standard Book-E/PowerISA FPU on e500v2 might be hard (or impossible even?) as this is not simply about missing instructions here but about instruction overlappings, i.e. same instructions doing different things on different cores."

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:15:59
#447 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@bison

Quote:

The Tabor is only interesting to me because it will run AmigaOS 4


It will?



I would actually be surprised if this board would reach the market at all. It simply doesn't make sense.

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Everblue 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:28:18
#448 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 24-Sep-2006
Posts: 641
From: Amigaland

@TRIPOS

What if the board is WIP and things will be changed for the consumer production? Or it is too late?

_________________

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Rob 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:32:02
#449 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5929
From: S.Wales

@TRIPOS

How much Amiga software actually uses an FPU. If the Tabor can't satisfactorily run Amiga 68k or PPC software that requires and FPU, how big a problem really is this.

I'd still prefer to adopt a wait and see attitude towards this board, and I already have more powerful Amiga hardware anyway.

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Ami603 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 11:41:01
#450 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 7-Mar-2003
Posts: 578
From: Valencia,Spain 8-)

@TRIPOS

Quote:
OS4 will never be recompiled for this, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever


read until this, skip automatically 4 posts.

you absolutely have no idea.

edit: or an agenda, whichever is worse.

Last edited by Ami603 on 17-Oct-2015 at 11:42 AM.

_________________
Cuida tus piedras gordas.

A1200/030 32Mb
A4000D
A1-X1000.

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Spectre660 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 12:15:41
#451 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3800
From: Unknown

@Rob

Posting this from a Tabor running regular Debian 8.2 powerpc32. so no SPE instructions and all Floating point handled in emulation. General preformance is very good.

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 12:40:50
#452 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Could you post lame bechmark result for plain PowerPC and SPE? This would show native and emulated FPU performance (if possible of course).

Last edited by pavlor on 17-Oct-2015 at 12:41 PM.

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wawa 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 12:55:36
#453 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
OS4 will never be recompiled for this

actually according to the person who had this board on display on the neuss meeting there is os4 beta version for this board already:
http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&sid=e2c6fbaecf723b05ca59e3531417292b

the graphics card is reported to be Radeon HD5450. in combination with this card the board is able to playback 720p videos without frame drop (under linux so far i understand).

Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2015 at 01:02 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2015 at 12:57 PM.
Last edited by wawa on 17-Oct-2015 at 12:56 PM.

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 12:58:55
#454 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@Ami603

Quote:

you absolutely have no idea.

edit: or an agenda, whichever is worse.


OMG...

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 13:20:49
#455 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:

wawa wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
OS4 will never be recompiled for this

actually according to the person who had this board on dispaly on the neuss meeting there is os4 beta version for this board already:
http://www.os4welt.de/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1670&sid=e2c6fbaecf723b05ca59e3531417292b


OK but please pay attention to the difference between adding support in the OS (i.e. writing OS4 drivers) and recompiling (i.e. "migrating") the platform for the "PowerPCSPE" ISA, which is obviously slightly different from the regular Book-E/Power ISA.

Like the Debian ports that we are discussing in this thread; on the one hand we have a PowerPCSPE native compile (of the OS, all the applications, the whole eco system), on the other hand merely a regular port that will require FPU emulation in S/W in order to run on the e500v2.

So which is it?

Quote:
the graphics card is reported to be Radeon HD5450. in combination with this card the board is able to playback 720p videos without frame drop (under linux so far i understand).


Just what I have been saying in this thread...

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pavlor 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 13:33:56
#456 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9120
From: Unknown

@wawa

Thanks for link!

2x USB 2.0 extern, 1x intern - I will correct my post (25 in this thread) about specifications.

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OlafS25 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 13:33:58
#457 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5761
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

the OS needs to be special compiled for it?

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Spectre660 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 13:51:47
#458 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3800
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

For the technical type (not me) this is how QNX handles the e500v2 core.

http://community.qnx.com/sf/wiki/do/viewHtml/projects.core_os/wiki/E500_SPE_support

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Spectre660 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 14:04:11
#459 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3800
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

Someone to ask about floating point stuff .

http://krashan.ppa.pl/

_________________

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TRIPOS 
Re: New hardware: PPC-Motherboard A1222 "Tabor" by Acube/A-eon
Posted on 17-Oct-2015 14:20:19
#460 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@TRIPOS

the OS needs to be special compiled for it?


This is what has been discussed in this entire thread!

There are two options AFAIK. Look at the current Linux support for the board, as reported by Spectre666 (who apparently owns one), there is both a native Debian PowerPCSPE port (compiled native for its slightly different ISA), then there is a standard PPC ISA version that seemingly can run on the CPU with Software FPU emulation with the performance penalty this means.

Compiling Linux and its applications for various target ISA's is not a big thing at all, this is how its done in Linux all the time. Native means best possible performance and no emulation. But the existing Amiga binaries (PPC native and 68k Petunia translated) can not run on anything but Book-E/Power ISA. As soon as the binaries contains Book-E/PowerISA FPU instructions, things will crash and burn, because on the e500v2 some instructions aren't there(?) and some instructions are there but means and does other things than the programs expect, since they break the standard that everything else follows.

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