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gregthecanuck 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 2:04:40
#1521 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 30-Dec-2003
Posts: 834
From: Vancouver, Canada

@kolla

Quote:
I think his ways of exaggerating the capabilities of the Apollo Core products seriously hurts his own project. That is what I think.


Please provide examples... or else you are just trolling. That is what I think.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 10:26:29
#1522 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@kolla

Ive seen Gunnar say several times that XYZ program would perform better/much better if enchanced to utilize AMMX and other aspects of the Apollo core, that has new features compared to "legacy" Amiga 680x0 CPUs. For example Netsurf.

Is this an inaccurate assertion?

Again, its a moot point if said programs aint reprogrammed to do this, as you rely on the raw processingpower of the Apollo/Vampire.

I think this perspective is very clear to most people, so can you explain to me how this "seriously hurt his project"?

Last edited by Overflow on 07-Aug-2018 at 10:27 AM.
Last edited by Overflow on 07-Aug-2018 at 10:27 AM.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 12:39:16
#1523 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1107
From: Trondheim, Norway

This should be really simple... does the ao486 core on MiSTer match the speed of PC-Task on Amiga with Apollo Core? If yes, then why does Gunnar say that no such core exist?

While we are at it... can you play DVD Quality video on your Vampire?

Last edited by kolla on 07-Aug-2018 at 01:03 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 13:07:06
#1524 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@kolla

Tbh I think the video of the ao486 core looks quite responsive considering the task it had.
On face value it looks like it matches the speed of PC-Task on Vampire.

Why Gunnar worded his post like that; Either he hasnt tested Windows/PC-Task on MISTer, and talked without thinking, or hes including performance potential thats unused by PC-Task . Just wild assumptions on my part tho.

Beyond that I couldnt comment since Ive not tested PC-Task on neither core (dont have MISTer).

Maybe Tuko got both, and can test the speeds as comparion doing the same tasks, or you?

As for DVD quality video; Not tested either beyond the videos provided with Coffin. Performance of encoding/decoding to a certain degree depends on the Apollo feature support of XYZ program.

Is the MISTer undergoing continous development? I havent followed its development at all, so genuinely curious since you are so familiar with it.

Whats your own judgement with regards to performance potential of different legacy programs if they get Apollo updates vs what performance they have now?

Im still curious how it hurts his project seriously tho. When I purchase a product, I look at that it can do at the time of purchase, and its potential. With regards to its potential, I see wether or not the product is in ongoing development, with a relativly responsive dev team.
Apollo Team checks those boxes as far as Im concerned.

Last edited by Overflow on 07-Aug-2018 at 01:46 PM.
Last edited by Overflow on 07-Aug-2018 at 01:18 PM.
Last edited by Overflow on 07-Aug-2018 at 01:16 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 13:42:29
#1525 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5403
From: Unknown

@Overflow

it not hurts his project...

Most people (or better 99.99% of customers are happy, the 0.01 exception is someone we both know ) are happy with the vampire obviously. It would only hurt if reality and expectations are very different and many people would feel betrayed. Again I only know one person feeling so but if recommended to sell the vampire and live a happy life resisting to do so...

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 14:05:20
#1526 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1107
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Overflow

Quote:

Either he hasnt tested Windows/PC-Task on MISTer, and talked without thinking,


You mean he has not tested any x86 softcore on FPGA and is talking without thinking? Yes, I agree.

Quote:
Beyond that I couldnt comment since Ive not tested PC-Task on neither core (dont have MISTer).


You seem confused, PC-Task is a software PC emulator for Amiga, ao486 is a 486 softcore for FPGA - a 486 implemented on the FPGA - "no emulation".


Quote:
As for DVD quality video; Not tested either beyond the videos provided with Coffin. Performance of encoding/decoding to a certain degree depends on the Apollo feature support of XYZ program.


There is just one single program to test here, so this should be easy - RiVa.

Quote:
Is the MISTer undergoing continous development?


Sure, but that's not topic here, which is Vampire an Apollo.

Quote:
Whats your own judgement with regards to performance potential of different legacy programs if they get Apollo updates vs what performance they have now?


My judgement is that this is not likely to happen, at all.

Quote:
Im still curious how it hurts his project seriously tho.


How many potential partners and developers (hardware and software) have by now thrown their hands in the air and left the party?

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 14:05:58
#1527 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1107
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OlafS25

Do you have a Vampire now?

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 14:11:27
#1528 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5403
From: Unknown

@kolla

do I moan about it?

Do you own one and moan?

"How many potential partners and developers (hardware and software) have by now thrown their hands in the air and left the party?"

Perhaps you can help us here, how many?

Last edited by OlafS25 on 07-Aug-2018 at 02:13 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 14:13:25
#1529 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@kolla

Ahh

Thanks for that clarification. ao486 is spesific for the 486, which makes its performance understandable as shown.

Given that the Apollo Core is 680x0, and runs the 486 in emulation, its hardly strange the ao486 competes or even surpass the apparent performance of Apollo in that instance.

Thats like using a crowbar to hammer in a nail, and pointing out that its less efficient than a hammer.
But I see your point with regards to the accuracy of Gunnars post. I read his comment as 680x0 FPGA core, running PC-Task in emulation.

I guess it qualifies as a "gotcha" moment, but thats the whole turning a feather into a flock of birds play.

As for how many potential partners and developers have thrown their hands up? Well, if most people are as flickle as you, probably many. I dont actually know tho.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 14:21:00
#1530 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5403
From: Unknown

@Overflow

BTW a typical Kolla...

I have found the comment from Gunnar

Somoene posting:
Nooo... I'm just curious to hear your thoughts on the type of performance that could be attained through an optimized FPGA implementation of x86.

Answer from Gunnar:

"As there is none, what point is this question?"

If you read carefully (and what he posted later) he obviously not meant there is no X86 core existing on the world but no X86 core for vampire so in his view it makes no sense to discuss if such a non-existing core is faster than emulator

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 14:50:11
#1531 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1095
From: Italy

@kolla

Only if you misunderstood Gunnar's Words by taking them out of context

It was clear to me that he intended to compare that 486FPGA with a potential PCTask optimized for Apollo

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 15:27:06
#1532 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1107
From: Trondheim, Norway

@OlafS25

Quote:
but no X86 core for vampire


"existing x86 FPGA cores are slower than running PC-Task on AMIGA with APOLLO."

EXITING x86 FPGA CORES

*** EXISTING ***

Good grief, people have a hard time reading.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 15:45:02
#1533 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@kolla

So he was wrong, how does that seriously hurt the project?

Its possible to have inaccuracies pointed out without negative connotations at every turn.

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kolla 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 16:19:04
#1534 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Aug-2003
Posts: 1107
From: Trondheim, Norway

@Overflow

This was just a recent example, there have been many. Which is symptomatic. Which makes a lot of people stay clear of having anything to do with it, including developers.

It doesn't help that there is a mob facing anyone who point out inaccuracies or ask critical questions. Not like it has just been me.

Last edited by kolla on 07-Aug-2018 at 04:19 PM.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 16:31:32
#1535 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5403
From: Unknown

@kolla

calling others mob is not a nice gesture

You nerve other people who just want to have fun with their hobby. And I am only aware of two constantly acting like that... you and Matthey (who I think promised bags full of money if Gunnar does what he wants...)

On a1k you managed to be threatened with ban too because you nerve the others (the mob how you call it). At least we are happy to have one sane person here...

If you are unhappy with what the vampire sell it. If the core is not what you expect create a core yourself if you can or not use the shit Gunnar offers. Nobody is forcing to do anything with it, supporting it or anything else. I do not understand why you act this way. Just to feel important? Sorry

Last edited by OlafS25 on 07-Aug-2018 at 04:34 PM.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 16:39:44
#1536 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@kolla

I saw your exchange with flype on EAB, solving/troubleshooting, so thats good.

Gunnar isnt really posting much, and if hes at times incorrect, does that hurt the performance of his hardware?
I evaluate his/the teams hardware based on its own merits, and for the most part, Gunnar avail himself to answer questions on forum and IRC. Im sure the same goes for MISTer, but in general I would say that the Apollo team as a whole is quite approachable.

You clearly like to tinker and figure out how to make stuff work, including with the Vampire, as evident with EAB.

But you are starting to remind me of the TED talk with Linus Torvalds, where he basically said that his brutish feedback style usually rubbed people the wrong way.
Linus said that he was aware of it, but why didnt people accept him for how he was, and looked at what he tried to accomplish.

So I think Ill just accept you as you are Have fun with the ao486 AND Vampire

EDIT;

And another thing that comes to mind;

The way Jim Drew reacted vs another scener that have a massive soundtrack library that I wanted to use for videos. I contacted him, and he was overjoyed that someone wanted to use it. When I purchased them online, he convoed me on FB telling me that it was completely unneeded. Use the music freely and download for free.

It reminds me we are all different.

Last edited by Overflow on 07-Aug-2018 at 04:58 PM.

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OneTimer1 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 17:21:45
#1537 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 3-Aug-2015
Posts: 401
From: Unknown

@Overflow

All this MMX expansions and Intel optimisations are worthless to me, I would never buy an 68k accelerator as software emulator for an x86. Instead of a 500 Euro hardware running PC task I could buy a PC with UAE running circles around Natami.

I don't believe all those coders, that never optimised their software for 68060 or ported them for PPC, will suddenly come and do this for VampireV4.

The new commands might have some value for optimised versions of MP3 or MPEG players or multimedia libraries. But everything else seems to me like the BS that Gunnar announced for the Natami project.

The VampireV4 is delayed 10 month now and instead of an existing hardware the VampireV4 is turning into the pipe dream the Natami had become, before it died.

I would love to see some drivers needed for the network cards of VampireV4, I would like to see a reaction to the buggy FPU thing they made for VampireV2. I would like to see the hardware at the dealers and not on Youtube.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 18:13:06
#1538 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@OneTimer1

I will let people that are actually able to code/develop to defend the merits of MMX.
If its not of intrest at all, and all you want to use is the legacy features, then that should be possible, by just running your favorite software. I saw some chatter on EAB between flype and kolla regarding the ability to disable the FPU for example, and thats resolved judging by the forumposts.

So you are getting a decent specced Amiga (FPGA) at amigalike reasonable prices. Ofcourse, if thats what you need it for, then there are much cheaper options as you allude to;
Stephen Jones made a good video on this topic (and also about Vampire;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HZXM6cLVUg

With regards to the V4 delay, Renaud noted the reason why;

Quote:
Vampire V4
If your remember last Activity Report from May, we had to admit we were struggling on a bug we weren�t able to locate the source and this for weeks and weeks. During the night of 2nd of June, ceaich and BigGun finally found the reason and fixed it, definitively. Hurray !


http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=1¬e=15593

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matthey 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 19:02:12
#1539 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2007
Posts: 603
From: Kansas

Quote:

OlafS25 wrote:
@kolla
calling others mob is not a nice gesture


mob - a large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence

Sounds accurate although I usually think of a mob as mindless and emotionally driven. There are sometimes intelligent instigators and ministers of propaganda behind mob actions. These are generally loyal followers of unethical powers. I call these people goons.

goon - a bully or thug, especially one hired to terrorize or do away with opposition

Quote:

You nerve other people who just want to have fun with their hobby. And I am only aware of two constantly acting like that... you and Matthey (who I think promised bags full of money if Gunnar does what he wants...)


I promised Gunnar nothing. I was in contact with various potential investors and business partners. I was trying to find common ground that pleased the most important people while allowing for a proper upgrade path for the 68k and Amiga. Instead, I found a boy who wanted to play with his toys. Later, I found his lack of ethics to be counterproductive to trying to do business deals. Meynaf and I were never kicked out of the Apollo team as Gunnar lied about. You and others like Grond know Gunnar lied to instigate mob attacks as I exposed on EAB. Now you are taking cheap shots at me here. How can such intelligent people turn into goons? Where are your ethical boundaries?

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 7-Aug-2018 19:23:20
#1540 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1540
From: Norway

@matthey

Out of curiosity;

Did your involvement cost you money? I realise its not always about money; as time and effort spent is a resource aswell.

And "boy who wanted to play with his toys"; that almost sounds like Trevor and PPC too.
Which is fine with me. If a road splits into two, and has different destinations, I dont see how its problematic some decide to enjoy one scenery over the other.

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