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JimIgou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 8-Sep-2018 17:30:14
#1561 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 78
From: Unknown

@kamelit0

Well, what is intended for X64 should resemble Qbox with some Abox functionality added.

Some legacy support will be disabled, but what ever system calls can be adapted to an SMP, memory protected environment ought to be retained.

None of us, outside of the developers, really knows the status of anything.
And they are notoriously tight lipped.

I'll dig you up a confirmation statement about the ISA shift later today.

What a fork doesn't prevent is continued development of the original OS, although it would divert resources and slow it down.

However, since most of what has been developed on PPC platforms is going to form the template for an X64 fork, if support for more capable Power/PPC hardware is added to the current OS, backporting features from the X64 fork ought to be possible.

It would be nice to support an open platform. And if that isn't to be ARM (and we have to leave that to AROS), then Power9 would provide an open option with legacy compatibility.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 8-Sep-2018 18:40:16
#1562 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1287
From: CRO

@JimIgou

Quote:
However, Power9 (and future variants) aren't limited to IBM as it's now open for license


True, however I haven't seen many licensed POWER CPUs, if any.
On top of that, traditionally, IBM always used their own custom manufacturing process for their POWER CPUs. This would be first time that any POWER CPU was ported to a non-IBM process technology, which, as you must know, costs a pretty penny, especially if we're talking cutting edge.

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JimIgou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 8-Sep-2018 18:58:10
#1563 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 78
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

Yes, but they seem to have attracted the interest of the Chinese with some revised designs.

That country is locked out of the X64 platform, so ARM and Power licensing is attractive to them.

Its odd, since China manufactures the bulk of finished X64 products.

But, if they want to sell us cpus, they are going to have to adopt open designs.

BTW - If we are discussing 'open' designs, the Apollo team has offered to customize their design for licensees.

I'm unsure of the likely success of a MorphOS ISA shift to a closed platform.
Gathering the hardware documentation to support those systems can be difficult.

Then again, documentation of some features of supposedly 'open'systems, like the gpus used in most ARM Socs isn't that good either.
Its one point in advocating R Pi based systems, a documented gpu.

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 8-Sep-2018 20:17:52
#1564 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1287
From: CRO

@JimIgou

Well, yes... the golden opportunity for (truly) next gen AmigaOS to have some impact was lost in the late 90s/early 2000s, but I think it's still a better bet to move MorphOS on x64 than it is to stay on PPC. And if MOS devs managed to crack Macs I'm sure they'll have no problemswith x86 hardware.

One particular target for ports should be HP Z workstations(or similar). Just bought a 12 core(2x6 xeon) Z800 with 48 GB of RAM for 400 EUR and a Z620 with a 16 core(2x8 core), 64 GB RAM for 600 EUR. Still packs a punch, they are cheap and are not a moving target. Great quality of construction, too.

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JimIgou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 8-Sep-2018 21:43:03
#1565 ]
Member
Joined: 30-May-2018
Posts: 78
From: Unknown

@WolfToTheMoon

HP's Xeon boxes?
Yeah, they are nice, and the prices are good.

That moving forward is an important issue.

We can hardly expect to remain competitive with dual core and quad core cpus in the 2.0-2.2 GHz range, not at $1700 or more.

Look at the two systems you mentioned. 12 and 16 core systems with a higher clock speed, at lower prices.

The quad core Power9 systems I've mentioned, at four threads per core, that's also 16 simultaneous threads, at a higher clock speed than the P50X0.

And if Raptor prices their MATX board at a similar price to the single cpu EATX board, it undercuts the X5000.

Also, I don't get the logic of Tabor. Lower performance than my cell phone, at several times the price.

The problem with this "boutique" computer concept is it lacks the economy of scale that commodity hardware provides.

And in attempting to introduce a lower cost model, all we've done is produce a crippled piece of hardware.

Frankly, I think Hyperion's latest moves show that they see a flaw catering to this specialty market themselves, and they appear to be maneuvering to offer service to the 68K legacy market.

I guess to sum it up, you could say we seem not to have learned a lesson from our original loss.
Commodity hardware dusted our fanny, even though our market started the multi-media revolution.

MorphOS is scheduled for an ISA shift because there didn't seem to be a point in carrying on with PPCs.
And Power9 may be too late to the table to change that paradigm.

NXP announces no new PPC cores will be produced, and Aeon with Varsys' assistance introduces their latest system based on an older crippled 32 bit core, even though the last two generations were 64bit machines.

I've said this before, but it bears repeating, at no point does price reduction favor getting two butt ugly pairs of lime green polyester slacks for the price of one.

I think even Ben Hermans realizes that, and that he's looking at additional directions that development can move forward on.

So...if I'm confusing any of you by my hesitation to support our status quo, it's because we've lost this fight once before.
And we were in a better position to face the competition the last time.
I don't like fighting for lost causes.

Last edited by JimIgou on 08-Sep-2018 at 11:30 PM.

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noXLar 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 8-Sep-2018 21:53:50
#1566 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 8-May-2003
Posts: 652
From: Norway

@BigD

LOL..nice try. i guess i need type in the words in google by my self hehe

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2xAmiga 1230 33mhz 128MB Indivision ACA 1200 MK2 USB PCMCIA WIFI 60GB&DVD-ROM OS 3.9

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 9-Sep-2018 13:56:39
#1567 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1287
From: CRO

@JimIgou

Quote:

HP's Xeon boxes?
Yeah, they are nice, and the prices are good


Yes. I'm over the moon with these systems, 32 threads and 64 GB of RAM for peanuts. It's not much slower than a new Threadripper with a similar core count, but for 650 EUR you can only buy the CPU on the new system I can also upgrade to v2 Xeons, which means 48 threads if I want it and those CPUs are also relatively affordable and getting cheaper by the day. Great deals to be had on these used Workstations!
And the quality and design are top notch, everything is in seperate compartments so the cooling is optimized to produce as little noise as possible.

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hth313 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 9-Sep-2018 16:57:58
#1568 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 29-May-2018
Posts: 115
From: Delta, Canada

@WolfToTheMoon

Is that second hand machines? Where do you get them?

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WolfToTheMoon 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 9-Sep-2018 17:20:00
#1569 ]
Super Member
Joined: 2-Sep-2010
Posts: 1287
From: CRO

@hth313

Quote:
Is that second hand machines? Where do you get them?


Yes, refurbished 2nd hand. You can get them pretty much anywhere, from HP themselves(HP part surfer I believe the page is called), to 3rd party companies that refurb, customize and (re)sell them like Z workstations( https://zworkstations.com), to ebay and similar sites. I got both of mine from a local ebay-like page . And since they're professional machines, HP still officially supports them, you get BIOS and firmware updates, for security and perfomance.

HP ZX00(Z400 single socket, Z600 and Z800 dual socket) series are nehalem and westmere Xeon based and are a bargain right now(single socket Z400 can be picked up for next to nothing, dual socket up to 500 EUR for top end models with 2 x 6 core/12 thread Xeons and loads of RAM, storage etc). These are still plenty fast.

HP ZX20(Z420, Z620 and Z820) are sandy bridge and ivy bridge and they are more expensive(depending on specs they can still fetch over 2000 EUR with Ivy Bridge Xeons) but get you stuff like USB 3.0, SATA III, PCIe 3.0 and such.

Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 09-Sep-2018 at 05:21 PM.
Last edited by WolfToTheMoon on 09-Sep-2018 at 05:20 PM.

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nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 10-Sep-2018 15:31:37
#1570 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 841
From: Norway, Oslo

What worries me is the cost of the stand alone version when ready from retaliers. There should be a case and maybe even a keyboard with Amiga keys, power supply, storage device. Sure optional but needed anyway.
Why this worries me is that with that high price it will be it will for sure only be for dedicated Amiga users.

I said before that this thing will likely sell 5000+ units the first year. I take that back. After some tought this will hardly sell 1000+ units.






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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 9:28:03
#1571 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1543
From: Norway

Vampire 4 X14 (100 mhz) core running Quake 060 in AGA 256 color mode. This is actually run on the AGA core (not RTG).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjIcvh8pp-s

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nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 10:04:36
#1572 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 841
From: Norway, Oslo

@Overflow

PAL Low res. and that bad fps. Sorry not impressed. It is sad that the Vampire can not have some dedicated gfx hardware.

I would stay away from demo of 3D games. It is just not impressive at all. Advertise Vampire in other ways.

Last edited by nikosidis on 24-Sep-2018 at 10:16 AM.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 10:19:22
#1573 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1543
From: Norway

@nikosidis

I dont care about advertise or not.

I think showing the real capability of a device is the most important. Benchmarks only shows so much etc.

To my knowledge, Quake hasnt been optimized for Apollo either.

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OlafS25 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 10:35:48
#1574 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5441
From: Unknown

@nikosidis

the strength of the new core are optimized 2D games

3D games will never be really impressing compared to standard hardware using special graphic chips. But these demos are not to impress people outside but to show how fast vampire is compared to existing (classic) amiga hardware

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Barana 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 10:55:35
#1575 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 1-Sep-2003
Posts: 843
From: Straya!

@Overflow

Pretty freaking sweet! And its just aga!
Wizards.

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I serve King Jesus.
What/who do you serve?

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ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 11:39:03
#1576 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1095
From: Italy

Not bad at all considering AGA limitations (Planar + low bandwidth)



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Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

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nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 11:50:52
#1577 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 841
From: Norway, Oslo

I understand that you use something as quake as a benchmark. I'm still allowed to be unimpressed.
When someone do a demo for A500 to me it still have to be good design and something to enjoy.
What they can get out of A500 is impressive and cool in itself but if the fps or presentation is jerky it is not going to be forgiven cause of the hardware.

I'm not that guy that look at youtube and hear a 4 year old play metallica on drums and listen to the whole shit and whow. I'm not saying it is not impressive considering the age but if I'm going to use, listen or look at something it must be up to the standards I consider good.

A 3D game not running smooth is just useless or any kind of game for that matter.
When I went to Solskogen demo party some guys with Vampire showed me some video stuff
in 16 bit as it was the highest color mode where video played almost smooth. One guy said it is not that much difference from 32 bit but I just said I can for sure see it and to me the difference is big.
Again. What is the point. They want Vampire to be NG system. It will never be. It is cool as a retro platform and will hopefully be very compatible with games, programs and demos released for the Amiga 68k.

Last edited by nikosidis on 24-Sep-2018 at 12:22 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 24-Sep-2018 at 12:01 PM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 24-Sep-2018 at 11:59 AM.
Last edited by nikosidis on 24-Sep-2018 at 11:52 AM.

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Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 12:19:50
#1578 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1543
From: Norway

@nikosidis

Well, its more measure of what the system is capable to do, and its limitations. Its much more meaningful for MOST of us to see demostrations/videos of all aspects, including 3D. But yes, you are more than allowed to be unimpressed

Remember the first versions of SoftFPU and Vampire running scene demos? They where basically horrific slideshows and sometimes incorrectly rendered the scenes themselves.
Now, a few months later, many of the demos are running more or less flawlessly, and with rather smoothly.

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Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 12:24:06
#1579 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3924
From: Rhode Island

The other day all I did is explain how a dedicated 3D chip works and why AMMX needs to be put into one of the custom chip that includes a 256x version of it that does 256 polygon transformations at once instead of 1 currently in order to have 3D performance that can meet or exceed the N64, Sega Saturn, Atari Jaguar and PlayStation 1...and this for a future V5 Vampire as the current design won't allow for it since you'd need 2 memory controllers...

Gunnar said to stop talking about fictional chips with an impossible 50GB/s transfer rate.

I mentioned GDDR5 can do 320GB/s.

My post was deleted.

It's not rocket science that those systems I mentioned with far weaker cpus were pushing 200,000 polygons in-game due to dedicated DSP/3d chips that do many polygon transformations in parallel like ALL 3d accelerator/gpus do...

I've been a big fan of Vampire up until now. I've officially been Gunnar'd. What's wrong with that guy?

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nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 12:27:36
#1580 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 841
From: Norway, Oslo

@Overflow

Yes, that is cool :)

It is for sure getting better. It is still not going to do miracles as some might imagine.

If there was possible to add some native gfx card there could be so much more
help with video decoding, 3d etc.
Could it happen at some point with next gen. Vampire?

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