Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5782 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

(Uses JAVA Applet and Port 1024)
Visit the Chatroom Website

Who's Online
 74 guest(s) on-line.
 5 member(s) on-line.


Rob, zzd10h, Mimifan, more...

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 g01df1sh:  2 secs ago
 Rob:  17 secs ago
 Mimifan:  40 secs ago
 cip060:  1 min ago
 zzd10h:  3 mins ago
 michalsc:  12 mins ago
 Frank:  15 mins ago
 amigakit:  29 mins ago
 BSzili:  53 mins ago
 Everblue:  55 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Classic Amiga Hardware
      /  News about Vampire and Apollo
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 Next Page )
PosterThread
nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 11:39:00
#1581 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 790
From: Norway, Oslo

@Lou

Good post. I posted my last post before I read yours :)

It kind of answered my question.

I guess Gunnar don't want negative comments. They are trying to do a product and at least they are releasing hardware and soon even a stand alone solution.

I'm not saying it was right to delete your post. I'm just saying there are trying to do something and need support. All technical questions about the limitations are kind of hurting their sales. This is not a NG system as lot's dream about.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 11:39:22
#1582 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1536
From: Norway

@Lou

Most likely cause relatively often, once people start mentioning whats considered unrealistic comparisons, others pile on. And you suddenly got several pages of comparisons that doesnt have anything to do with whats remotely possible/realistic for the team/project.

His comment was "Does this sound realistic? Of course not." I assume its for the Apollo project.

Ive seen Gunnar steer the threads back into the original direction before. And sometimes he ignores it.

I dont actually mind him being more of a moderator, keeping it ON topic.

What you brings up is obviously intresting, and probably belonged in a own thread.

Ive had a whole thread deleted once, which made me a bit annoyed. But in hindsight I was glad he did, since it wasnt really helpful.

@Niko

Showing limitations hurt their sales...Why would they allow videos being released where the performance is laggy and slow? They just want it within the realm of realism for the scale/scope of the project.

Last edited by Overflow on 24-Sep-2018 at 11:41 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
bennymee 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 13:23:49
#1583 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 19-Aug-2003
Posts: 423
From: Netherlands

@nikosidis

It is more like a 'classic' NG system :)

...and a good one !

@all

Btw, there is a topic on a German forum of the existence of a Vampire V3 for the Amiga 600, containing IDE and problably V5 FPGA. Could be seen on the Classic Computing 2018.






Last edited by bennymee on 24-Sep-2018 at 01:26 PM.
Last edited by bennymee on 24-Sep-2018 at 01:26 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 13:38:07
#1584 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 790
From: Norway, Oslo

@bennymee

Yes, sure is. Very cool to run 060 demos and other stuff :)

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 13:58:29
#1585 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1093
From: Italy

@nikosidis

Well, it can be a good machine for retrogaming if one has not a real working Amiga or has a plain one.

I'm waiting for V4 and if it will be as I think and desire, I'll buy one and use it for playing games I missed during Amiga era and other games I could not play because required RTG or more power than my A1200 303/50 could provide.

Some examples being:
- Breathless with mouse support
- Napalm
- Alien Breed The Killing Grounds
- TFX
[...]

Anything more like porting of old DOS games or dedicated games will be a nice and very wellcome addition to that.




_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
thellier 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 14:15:19
#1586 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 240
From: Paris

@Lou

I think you didnt understood what wanted to say Gunnar:
(who is not a native english speaker)

"68080 can do a vertex rotation with a 4x4 Matrix on DOUBLE floats vertexes in about 25 cycle.
Loading the input / save the result consume a memory bandwidth of over 200 MB/sec."

I think he was meaning that "given the Vampire bus speed doing the vertex rotation with the fast 68080 already reach this bus limit so ne need to want to go faster"


>It's not rocket science
Yes 68080 is much more powerfull than Apollo one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Guidance_Computer

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 14:40:33
#1587 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3896
From: Rhode Island

I understood full well it won't be possible on the V4, which is why I mentioned a future V5.
I mentioned you'd need a memory controller to handle cpu-only fast ram to run game logic and "chip" ram would have it's memory controller so that the custom chip can crank out the polygon processing.

Again, I was referring to a future design as the current one can't handle it.

I still believe he thinks the CPU can do it all. Sony thought the same thing with the PS3's Cell processor. Hubris. Even with 7 or 8 stream processor cores, the Cell processor could not handle the loads of a true gpu. This is why I said AMMX * 256 on a dedicated chip.

Last edited by Lou on 24-Sep-2018 at 02:41 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
nikosidis 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 15:25:00
#1588 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 9-Dec-2008
Posts: 790
From: Norway, Oslo

@ErikBauer

I like the vampire for demo, intro stuff. Lot's to watch and new releases all the time. No way I watch these productions without real hardware. Youtube does not cut if for me in that case.

I also like to use if for classic gaming even if the more advanced games you talked about is not that much of interest for me. I used to play them when I had 060.

Last edited by nikosidis on 24-Sep-2018 at 03:25 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
ErikBauer 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 15:40:25
#1589 ]
Super Member
Joined: 25-Feb-2004
Posts: 1093
From: Italy

@nikosidis

Lucky you, I never owned one of these babes

And yeah, I guess Vamp could reignite my Intro/Demo passion... as you say watching them on YT or emulated on WinUAE is not the same thing...


_________________
God created Paula so that Allister Brimble and Dave Whittaker could do music

Check my Amiga gameplays (ITA)!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TiredofLife 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 18:00:37
#1590 ]
Super Member
Joined: 6-Jul-2005
Posts: 1601
From: Here

@ErikBauer @nikosidis

I couldn't begin to explain why watching demos on youtube just isn't the same.
All I know is to me, it just isn't.
Something about watching it on real hardware just makes it a better experience.

Would love to see a standalone Vampire running some demos.

Cheers

_________________
If your nose runs and your feet smell, you're upside down.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
edponpon 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 24-Sep-2018 22:39:39
#1591 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 8-May-2007
Posts: 294
From: USA, The World Police

I'd just be happy if the A1200 version would come out. I'm quite content with that machine, but would like all the features that were discussed for the Vampire for this machine. Thanks.

Ed


_________________
Amiga 1200 - ACA 1233 68030 128MB Ram
8GB CF With tons of Classics

AmigaOne X5000

"That which doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger" - Someone important, but I forgot who

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
thellier 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 25-Sep-2018 13:26:01
#1592 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2009
Posts: 240
From: Paris

A long time ago I had an A4040 with CV64/3D & SCSI2 : if the Vampire stand alone can be fully compatible & better in all aspects (3D, disk speed,resolution) I will be very happy

It would be a reasonable goal

Wanting to reach a PC or NG performance is off topic





 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 13:15:16
#1593 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3896
From: Rhode Island

Here's the thing.
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1301889

[Quote]
Legacy “fixed architectures” aren’t well suited to meet the requirements of complex, yet power sensitive, media-oriented processing tasks. A generic 32-bit RISC processor could require as much as 18-GHz for standard definition (SD) H.264 encode or 5-GHz for MPEG-4 encode, ARC said. ARC’s VRaptor Media Architecture will require only 200 MHz for SD H.264 encoding, while retaining all of the benefits of a programmable solution.

The VRaptor architecture with its parallelization is expected to scale from simple MP3 decode to complex HD H.264. At the same time developers should be able to keep clock frequencies down at a few 100-MHz or even reduce clock frequency if the processing load is spread across more processors, according to Peter Hutton, senior vice president of engineering at ARC (Elstree, England). VRaptor supports multiple applications with media extensions, multiple vectorized 128-bit SIMD processors, high performance streaming I/O, and domain-specific accelerators. The various blocks can be joined together as appropriate by 32-bit wide point-to-point active communications channels architecture.
[/quote]

The ARC processor is the successor to the SuperFX chip found on the SuperNES.
Does any of this ring a bell about what I was saying regarding taking AMMX and adding it to a custom chip that was essentially 256 units running in parallel to achieve what would be necessary? Notice the mention of 100Mhz-200Mhz speeds... Gee - I wonder what else is running around that speed...

Thinking the Apollo being able to do real-time rending is absolute HUBRIS. How is explaining how a future Vampire could/should handle 3D when the TOPIC of that thread is Polygon Pushing Performance of the 080. On second thought - I stand corrected. The 080 will never be able to push enough polygons to do proper 3D games.

Intel ended up licensing this technology...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 13:52:13
#1594 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1536
From: Norway

@Lou

I belive Gunnar has lined the Apollo up alongside Playstation 1 and even 2 with regards to graphics. I assume it requires quite optimized and targeted code (080 spesific).
Point being; Gunnar hasnt really been putting goals much futher than that.

With regards to 3D rendering/encoding, he has basically said that there are better platforms for that, but that doesnt stop some people from doing so

Heck, I render a fair amount of videos (work related), and my old first gen i7 CPU had me in tears. Dished out for a Ryzen 2 2700, and I wouldnt even dream about using Vampire to this kind of work.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
KimmoK 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 14:08:32
#1595 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 14-Mar-2003
Posts: 5101
From: Ylikiiminki, Finland

...experience...

last weekend I went to saku2018 event and tried A2000 setup...
I started sysinfo and nearly dropped myself on the floor.. 96MIPS!

then I noticed it had FPGA as 68k.

Weird thing to play 640x350 etc. videos @ 25fps on an Amiga2000!
(also the LCD was connected to the FPGA I think?)

The unit:
http://saku.bbs.fi/yhdistys/tapahtumat/saku2018/kuvat/000012.html

_________________
- KimmoK
// For freedom, for honor, for AMIGA
//
// Thing that I should find more time for: CC64 - 64bit Community Computer?

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 14:28:17
#1596 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3896
From: Rhode Island

@Overflow

Stop defending him. The Apollo has a MUCH more powerful cpu than a PS1, however the PS1 will still kill it in 3D thanks to a dedicated chip for such things. The N64, a same-generation system, launched with SuperMario64, a game that boasted 100,000 real-time polygons. That generation was pushing 100k-200k polygons in-game. Apollo will never do such things using only a cpu.

Teams of engineers figured this out decades ago...

The Atari Jaguar and it's lowly 68000 cpu had a wonderful Heretic port thanks to the Tom&Jerry chips.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ubP2StMocU
Once again - same generation hardware...

Sega Saturn Quake: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUZ436FXB4U&t=22s

Last edited by Lou on 27-Sep-2018 at 02:42 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 27-Sep-2018 at 02:37 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 27-Sep-2018 at 02:33 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 27-Sep-2018 at 02:33 PM.
Last edited by Lou on 27-Sep-2018 at 02:30 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Overflow 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 14:43:57
#1597 ]
Super Member
Joined: 12-Jun-2012
Posts: 1536
From: Norway

@Lou

Im not defending him per see.

If you branch the hardware out with too many externals, the complexity goes up. And it slows down development, since its more things to consider. I assume the cost of production goes up too?

Ofcourse I agree with you that external 3d cards/chips will help alot. I got a 1070 taking care of that in my Wintel.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 14:56:41
#1598 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 10896
From: Norway

@ErikBauer

Quote:

Some examples being:
- Breathless with mouse support
- Napalm
- Alien Breed The Killing Grounds
- TFX
[...]

Some googling around:
-"Breathless" is open source, its written in C.
(can be ported to few platform, I have looked inside the sources to see how looks inside.)

- Napalm, source code not found,
(binary was patched, thanks to disassembling on OS4, basically timing was removed )

- Alien Breed The Killing Grounds
Source code on GIT Hub this is assembler, editor is in Amos code.

-TFX did not find any source code.

_________________
Please check out my software:
Excalibur, Basilisk 2, AmigaInputAnywhere.
LiveForIt-Music
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Lou 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 15:09:02
#1599 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 2-Nov-2004
Posts: 3896
From: Rhode Island

@Overflow

Quote:

Overflow wrote:
@Lou

Im not defending him per see.

If you branch the hardware out with too many externals, the complexity goes up. And it slows down development, since its more things to consider. I assume the cost of production goes up too?

Ofcourse I agree with you that external 3d cards/chips will help alot. I got a 1070 taking care of that in my Wintel.

No one was asking for a branch. I even said it would have to be for a future "V5". Everyone else is being unrealistic about polygon-pushing performance of the Apollo.

PS1 also had Gran Tourismo. No way Vampire can handle that game.
PS1 could do: Polygons: 180,000 per second (textured), 360,000 per second (flat-shaded)
cpu was 34Mhz...

Last edited by Lou on 27-Sep-2018 at 03:13 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
tlosm 
Re: News about Vampire and Apollo
Posted on 27-Sep-2018 15:11:40
#1600 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2547
From: Amiga land

@Lou

add this ... quake on Amiga4000 604e 366mhz /060@66mhz with Vodoo4
https://youtu.be/D3S5aM0ylPc?t=4m56s

for what i see the quake on vampire have really good performances ... and we know quake use fpu instructions and aga is a bootleneck

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright © 2000 - 2017 Amigaworld.net.

Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle