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      /  Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
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PosterThread
Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 16:11:23
#161 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Saturated like this ?

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=7687&start=60#97287


Quote:

BSzili wrote:
@Spectre660

That's not really an argument, the OS4 h/w "market" is already pretty saturated.

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 16:14:49
#162 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2539
From: Amiga land

@Spectre660

i make a test with my kernel with full fpu emulation on cyrus .


this are the emulated instruction
57 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 lq_stq
56 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 mtdscr
55 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 mfdscr
54 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 math
53 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 unaligned
52 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 sync
51 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 string
50 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 spe
49 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 popcntb
48 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 multiple
47 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 mfpvr
46 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 mcrxr
45 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 isel
44 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 fp_pair
43 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 dcbz
42 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 dcba
41 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 altivec
40 -rw-r--r-- 1 0 0 Jan 1 1970 do_warn

only string and mfpvr look like really emulated

mfpvr 2811
string 124809844

... result quake spasm differ with only 20fps less than the kenrel without emulated instruction...

i hope this will help stop some speak about performances on tabor

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BSzili 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 16:19:52
#163 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 297
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

He already had an OS4 machine, and he upgraded to an X5000. I thought we were talking about Tabor here. I must be missing something.

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 16:21:51
#164 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@tlosm

Dont worry Luigi.

The whole Tabor bashing started because of this post.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=797215&postcount=12
To cover up the fact that he pretends to have knowledge when he doesn't he then started to bash the same board that he claimed to have facts about in his initial post.

Last edited by Spectre660 on 28-Mar-2016 at 04:22 PM.

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 16:38:46
#165 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Your original statement about market saturation implied to me that you think tha nobody wants/needs any new AmigaOS hardware of any model .

Quote:

BSzili wrote:
@Spectre660

He already had an OS4 machine, and he upgraded to an X5000. I thought we were talking about Tabor here. I must be missing something.

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BSzili 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 16:57:05
#166 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 297
From: Unknown

@Spectre660
I said the market is mostly saturated. I don't know how that could be interpreted as "nobody needs/wants new hardware". The X5000 is an upgrade to a Peg2 in terms of performance, while the Tabor would be a downgrade.

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iggy 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 17:15:49
#167 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@Spectre660

Quote:
The whole Tanor bashing started because of this post


What, I get credit for being the first to realize what a weak piece of crap this is?

Well, in all modesty, that is not exactly correct.

As to information, I was misinformed by a friend who was shown this board when it was first announced (leading me to believe it had a better CPU).

Since then, I have had a chance to exchange messages with a few people that actually have these boards, and THAT is what my current opinion is based on.

If YOU want to buy new hardware that is slower than many Athlon XP systems, do it.

But you won't be able to point to me as the one advocating the idea.

I have never replaced hardware with something that performed worse.

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 17:35:22
#168 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2539
From: Amiga land

@BSzili

sorry but i dont think my old peggy was able to have a pcie new gen video board and 1333mhz ddr3 ram and cant play 1080p videos ... for sure this on linux because the tabor dual cores...
amiga os one core is a boottle neck for a power8 cpu too.
with only one core i cant able to play 1080p video on quad g5 or on p5020 too...
only 720p can perform max there on one core.
if only the full hw accelerations in video decoding probably we can raise the video play on one core on amigaos


video decoding is one example... same is browsing and gaming..

Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 05:43 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 05:39 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 05:39 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 05:38 PM.
Last edited by tlosm on 28-Mar-2016 at 05:37 PM.

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I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 17:39:33
#169 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@iggy

If you don't like the published specs then fine.
Just say that the spec and your expected performance levels are not high enough for you.
You would have expressed your opinion without the perceived negative crusade .

The comparison to Athlon XP is apples and oranges. The concern of people interested in running AmigaOS 4.x is can the hardware run it fast enough and the final price .

The Tabor actually boots Linux faster than virtualbox on the quad core 3.8GHZ machine that I run Linux using 2 cores on. There are times when some processes on the quad core machine conflict and I and stuck with a machine that I cant use for minutes. A Sam440ep-flex performed better with AmigaOS 4.1 than this 4 core beast at times like this .





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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 17:59:52
#170 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@Massi

Quote:
Again which benefits the Tabor brings to OS4?


This fully depends on final price, which we dont know yet...


700 Euros was the price mentioned in forums back when the news broke. I don't think it was officially communicated though, but I suppose the figure didn't just materialize out of thin air. IMHO the price sounds plausible, and follows AoenKit's pattern of grossly overpriced H/W perfectly...

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OlafS25 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:01:54
#171 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 12-May-2010
Posts: 5288
From: Unknown

@Spectre660

besides that Linux and 4.X (or MorphOS/AROS or whatever) are different beasts or is 4.X recently supporting SMP?

What do you want to say with your comparations with 3.8 Ghz hardware? That Tabor is faster than a 3.8 Ghz system?

Iggy has shown a potential weakness of the hardware that will propably affect 4.X software because people will not offer special Tabor compiled software. People will look at it when system is really running and software can be tested. You seem you think to have defend Tabor against any critisizm. It is not your design choice or product so you do not have to.

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:09:25
#172 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@OlafS25

I am making an observation.

I should have originally posted some of what is in the previous post to a response to this post .

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40994&forum=33&start=0&viewmode=flat&order=0#780165

Last edited by Spectre660 on 28-Mar-2016 at 06:10 PM.

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Tuxedo 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:10:14
#173 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Nov-2003
Posts: 2287
From: Perugia, ITALY

@all

Honestly just AmigaONs/Pegasos2 was quite outperformed by x86 hardwares around when released, but really not so much than Tabor that was outperformed by quite ever A0migaOS4.x capable hardware around...

And that was st least odd....

That's sad...

And if @TRIPOS price reading of 700EUR was sometimes confirmed, and I REALLY hope that wasnt, thats really a bad...

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BSzili 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:11:33
#174 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 297
From: Unknown

@tlosm
On Linux you can have powerpcspe binaries, use multiple cores, hardware TcL, and so forth. From the perspective of an OS4 user, Tabor is a downgrade. Those next gen video boards are under-utilized even on fast hardware. If you throw in a CPU with slow floating point performance, you won't have a very good experience.

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:14:52
#175 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Rose

Unless you spend a year or five writing a JIT compiler, I don't think so.
Its just better to recompile programs, the programs that is CPU demanding are mostly ported over from Linux anyway, not saying that there might not be native AmigaOS programs that require CPU power too, but its the ported programs like Web, Media players, and 3D rendering that is most demanding, then there is games.


The Tabor CPU isn't PPC compatible, it's as simple as that. Not just missing instructions, but some overlapping instructions as well (i.e. some instructions are there but does something else than on normal PPC).

You would have to spend a year or five to write a PPC JIT compiler to use normal PPC binaries. Then you would have to spend another year or five to write a new Petunia 68k JIT compiler for the Tabor as well. All this just to be able to use OS4 in the way you do it today, i.e. 68k/PPC mixed in the same environment.

And after about a decade, when your monumental JIT work is done, you will end up asking yourself why you didn't do it for x64 or ARM instead of Tabor.

Recompiling the OS/Applications isn't an issue at all in Linux, that whole build process is completely automated, but this isn't even an option if you want to use OS4 the way people do today. And if you go the recompile route, then you would be mad if you didn't drop PPC altogether and aim for a CPU architecture that still has a pulse today...

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:15:17
#176 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

Any until the first public demonstration of AmigaOS 4.x on Tabor.

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:16:10
#177 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8762
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
700 Euros was the price mentioned in forums back when the news broke


This price figure was denied by Trevor himself. (post 301)

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pavlor 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:19:19
#178 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 8762
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
to write a new Petunia 68k JIT compiler for the Tabor as well.


Nonesense, Hyperion can simply run Petunia as 680x0 without FPU.

Integer unit is compatible with "normal" PowerPC, only FPU isnt.

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Spectre660 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:22:15
#179 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 5-Jun-2005
Posts: 3685
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Your understanding is not quite correct.
The identical Linux Ubuntu-Mate 16.04 root partition image boots on Sam460ex,X1000,X5000 and Tabor.(apart from the xorg.conf for the X1000) .
Apart from Firefox and video every thing else works on Tabor using the basic linux powerpc fpu emulation.

Quote:

TRIPOS wrote:
@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@Rose

Unless you spend a year or five writing a JIT compiler, I don't think so.
Its just better to recompile programs, the programs that is CPU demanding are mostly ported over from Linux anyway, not saying that there might not be native AmigaOS programs that require CPU power too, but its the ported programs like Web, Media players, and 3D rendering that is most demanding, then there is games.


The Tabor CPU isn't PPC compatible, it's as simple as that. Not just missing instructions, but some overlapping instructions as well (i.e. some instructions are there but does something else than on normal PPC).

You would have to spend a year or five to write a PPC JIT compiler to use normal PPC binaries. Then you would have to spend another year or five to write a new Petunia 68k JIT compiler for the Tabor as well. All this just to be able to use OS4 in the way you do it today, i.e. 68k/PPC mixed in the same environment.

And after about a decade, when your monumental JIT work is done, you will end up asking yourself why you didn't do it for x64 or ARM instead of Tabor.

Recompiling the OS/Applications isn't an issue at all in Linux, that whole build process is completely automated, but this isn't even an option if you want to use OS4 the way people do today. And if you go the recompile route, then you would be mad if you didn't drop PPC altogether and aim for a CPU architecture that still has a pulse today...

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 28-Mar-2016 18:24:27
#180 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 894
From: Unknown

@tlosm

Quote:

tlosm wrote:

with only one core i cant able to play 1080p video on quad g5

only 720p can perform max there on one core.


Maybe not under MacOS, but AFAIK, MorphOS running one of the faster of the already supported G5 machines does 1080p x.264 streams very well (the quad core isn't even supported yet). But I think MorphOS is faster than Mac on this. It plays 720p streams just fine on the faster G4 machines, while this isn't true for MacOS (AFAIK)...

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