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      /  Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
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NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 23-Mar-2016 14:14:55
#81 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11417
From: Norway

@Overflow

Software rendering is slow, so this is something you should avoid, and it eats CPU cycles you might have spent on something else.

Warp3D vs Warp3D Nova, well Nova will be able to do more on the GPU, so this will help programs using 3D graphics, mostly games, but there are applications that so as well like Blender.

For normal 2D programs it will make little difference, some 2D graphics is already using composition.

As always program that do not use Nova or Composition, do not benefit from it, programs has to be written to take advantage for of what you have.

It easy to decide to not use Composition, because WinUAE user don't have it, and so we end up with the least improvements.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Mar-2016 at 02:35 PM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 23-Mar-2016 at 02:34 PM.

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BSzili 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 23-Mar-2016 16:41:50
#82 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@wawa

I guess if they went for an existing standard, like Gallium3D, they'd have had no excuse not to port Mesa too, which would have been much more work. By making their own lightweight API and an OpenGL ES2 wrapper, they essentially offloaded the work of providing a full OpenGL implementation to the community

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wawa 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 23-Mar-2016 17:12:31
#83 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Quote:
I guess if they went for an existing standard, like Gallium3D, they'd have had no excuse not to port Mesa too, which would have been much more work. By making their own lightweight API and an OpenGL ES2 wrapper, they essentially offloaded the work of providing a full OpenGL implementation to the community

this would be an unfortunate choice, exactly the opposite of what should be done, because the community will do exactly nothing about it, except maybe the appointed and particularly skilled individuals like daytona, maybe you or few mostly aros developers i had to do with. also introducing a "lightweight" solution means it will be limited, a subset of standard, as minigl was. e demos provided so far do not highlight any particular groundbreaking features, so this assumption seems to be justified.

nevertheless i think rather, that warp3d update has been decided upon (rather obvious) conclusion, that gallium for os4, at the current pace of "development" may never come, and the customer must be supplied with another stop gap solution, that will eventually grow into a standard. this approach must have been decided upon long time ago, and this is probably not a coincidence announcing it these days in the middle of complete silence what concerns os4 matters.

the problem is that even if the things announced in the spring are going to be eventually finally delivered, like timberwolf or the memory management extension that came last year, their impact of usability and development of the system remains to be next to nothing.

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BSzili 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 23-Mar-2016 17:41:49
#84 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 16-Nov-2013
Posts: 388
From: Unknown

@wawa
Don't be fooled by the underwhelming demos. Since Warp3D Nova is all about shaders, and it includes a GLSL compiler, its on par with what you can do with OpenGL ES 2. With the promised wrapper it will be source compatible too. After that they can say "here's the API, developers just have to take advantage of it". How many developers who are interested porting or developing games and 3D software own the necessary hardware is a another matter.

If I were them I'd get Regal ported along with the GLES2 wrapper. It doesn't really matter what's under the hood, nobody will be impressed by GLGears and a rotating cube, even if it's implemented using shaders. On the other hand, if they had OpenGL via Regal, they could show off OGL 1.x games running much faster using H/W transformations, even if they are not using shaders at all.

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wawa 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 0:09:32
#85 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@BSzili

Quote:
Don't be fooled by the underwhelming demos

im not. simply we dont know how much of the opengl es2 standard has been actually implemented in warp3d nova. we relay here on what have been reported by the vendors and on what is to be seen in videos. and this isnt much so far.

Last edited by wawa on 24-Mar-2016 at 12:10 AM.

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ne_one 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 0:54:20
#86 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 885
From: Unknown

@Overflow

Quote:
I guess what Im asking about is the direct impact performancewise of Tabor with or without Nova.


Unfortunately, I think many people have viewed this announcement as an enhancement rather than as an enabling technology.

Nova will make the Tabor more capable but if you really want a capable high performance system, the CPU and GPU will need to be advanced and the software will need to take advantage of it.

Either way, it's a positive step forward that creates opportunities.

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ne_one 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 1:05:05
#87 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 13-Jun-2005
Posts: 885
From: Unknown

@wawa

Quote:
this is probably not a coincidence announcing it these days in the middle of complete silence what concerns os4 matters


Quote:
the problem is that even if the things announced in the spring are going to be eventually finally delivered...


It's a bit of a mixed bag but announcing and demonstrating the work in an advanced state is an encouraging and welcome step.

Increasingly it seems that A-EON is subsidizing most efforts. Perhaps it's time for them to emerge at the forefront.

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Hans 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 1:25:48
#88 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 27-Dec-2003
Posts: 4927
From: New Zealand

@BSzili

Quote:

BSzili wrote:
@wawa
Don't be fooled by the underwhelming demos...

Hehe. Those "demos" are the Warp3D Nova SDK examples. Their primary task isn't to impress, but to serve as example code for developers (and double as test programs for driver developers). I see that Trevor skipped the "HelloTriangle" demo that would have shown a multi-coloured triangle in all its glory.

I'm grateful to Kevin Saunders for creating the Warp3D Nova logo model, and working within the limitations of my Wavefront OBJ loader. Without his work you'd be looking at some programmer art.

Hans

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 9:31:48
#89 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

@Hans

for me are impressive ... just because works .
before was nothing

im only courious about the use of cpu during that demos.
On LinuxPPC side only Glx gears use really huge cpu in vblank_mode=0 and GPU start spinning fans like are running the last Unreal Engine 4 game.
Im pretty sure your library are more optimized compared the Gallium/Mesa OpenGLES 2 on LinuxPPC

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olegil 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 18:55:16
#90 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 22-Aug-2003
Posts: 5888
From: Work

@tlosm

Did you just go like "use all resources for this 3D rendering thing" and then you got surprised that it used a lot of resources?

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 24-Mar-2016 21:58:32
#91 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

@olegil

yes ... surprized to have 3 gears just doing 1900 fps on a 6570HD

same glxgears on a oldest 7800gtx on Macosx 10,5 Leopard doing 10.000 fps

Last edited by tlosm on 24-Mar-2016 at 10:04 PM.

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Massi 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 10:16:25
#92 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@tlosm

Ciao,

really big gap even compared to a quite old Mac (2009 ?).

Accidenti siamo messi cosi' male?

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 11:37:04
#93 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@Massi

Quote:

Massi wrote:

really big gap even compared to a quite old Mac (2009 ?).


Even older, it was introduced in 2005!



http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/powermac_g5/specs/powermac_g5_quad_2.5.html

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 11:40:00
#94 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@Massi

Edit: Double post, oops! But since I have this space anyway, I take the opportunity to add that his GeForce 7800 card is of the same age as his computer...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_7_series

Last edited by TRIPOS on 25-Mar-2016 at 11:46 AM.
Last edited by TRIPOS on 25-Mar-2016 at 11:45 AM.

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Massi 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 12:41:07
#95 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@TRIPOS

OK thanks for the info.
This technological gap is frankly embarrassing.

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wawa 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 13:46:15
#96 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 21-Jan-2008
Posts: 6259
From: Unknown

@Massi

Quote:
This technological gap is frankly embarrassing.


ten years apart.. it might look similar to a comparison between zx81 and amiga1200, but lets be fair. the mac is a higher clock four core machine and the system is taking advantage of it. considering this both, the frame rate difference being a factor 5 looks actually virtually even on both sytems, a better result than id expect, in fact.

Last edited by wawa on 25-Mar-2016 at 01:46 PM.

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 19:54:57
#97 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

@Massi

nope bettere explain

Glxgears Quad G5 (2006)
Linux PPC Radeonhd 4650 1400/1450 fps
Linux PPC RadeonHD 6570 1550/1600 fps
OSx Leopard PPC 10.5 9950/10.000 fps su una vecchia 7800gtx 512mb (2005)

AmigaOne X5000
Linux PPC RadeonHD 6570 1980/2010 fps (il pcie 2.0 aiuta)

Linux x86 6570 hd 8550 FPS


Last edited by tlosm on 25-Mar-2016 at 07:55 PM.

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A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
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Massi 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 20:38:52
#98 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 2-Feb-2011
Posts: 519
From: Rome, Italy

@tlosm

OK.
I don' t know how Glxgears is done internally and how your tests are executed, I am just guessing it is supposed to stress the GPU rather than the CPU (OSX and Linux should also have SMP).

Well Mac seems very optimized, despite the fact it is a quite old system.

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tlosm 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 25-Mar-2016 22:28:28
#99 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 28-Jul-2012
Posts: 2702
From: Amiga land

@Massi

Only one core is used in all os and all architectures.
Just better drivers on x86 and old osx ppc some parts was in asm and drivers was made by nvidia and amd (for linux x86 and osx)

Last edited by tlosm on 25-Mar-2016 at 10:29 PM.

_________________
I love Amiga and new hope by AmigaNG
A 500 + ; CDTV; CD32;
PowerMac G5 Quad 8GB,SSD,SSHD,7800gtx,Radeon R5 230 2GB;
MacBook Pro Retina I7 2.3ghz;
#nomorea-eoninmyhome

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TRIPOS 
Re: Tabor. Let's have a worhwhile discussion about it.
Posted on 26-Mar-2016 10:41:45
#100 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1043
From: Unknown

@Massi

It's about drivers. With crappy OS/driver support, it doesn't help if you are using new Radeon HD R9 cards.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=40078&forum=33&start=20&viewmode=flat&order=0#756399

I'd pick a good support for Radeon 9250 over crappy support for Radeon HD R9 any day. Hence I have been enjoying quite decent accellerated 2D, 3D and overlay for the last decade, while some others have been sitting with their PCI-E gfx cards pretty much idle during the same time.

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