Click Here
home features news forums classifieds faqs links search
5768 members 
Amiga Q&A /  Free for All /  Emulation /  Gaming / (Latest Posts)
Login

Nickname

Password

Lost Password?

Don't have an account yet?
Register now!

Support Amigaworld.net
Your support is needed and is appreciated as Amigaworld.net is primarily dependent upon the support of its users.
Donate

Menu
Main sections
» Home
» Features
» News
» Forums
» Classifieds
» Links
» Downloads
Extras
» OS4 Zone
» IRC Network
» AmigaWorld Radio
» Newsfeed
» Top Members
» Amiga Dealers
Information
» About Us
» FAQs
» Advertise
» Polls
» Terms of Service
» Search

IRC Channel
Server: irc.amigaworld.net
Ports: 1024,5555, 6665-6669
SSL port: 6697
Channel: #Amigaworld
Channel Policy and Guidelines

Who's Online
29 crawler(s) on-line.
 14 guest(s) on-line.
 3 member(s) on-line.


 Bezzen,  clebin,  RoqueFort

You are an anonymous user.
Register Now!
 Bezzen:  1 min ago
 clebin:  3 mins ago
 RoqueFort:  4 mins ago
 A1200:  13 mins ago
 Fl@sh:  17 mins ago
 smf:  31 mins ago
 michalsc:  50 mins ago
 MEGA_RJ_MICAL:  54 mins ago
 Serpi:  56 mins ago
 LarsB:  58 mins ago

/  Forum Index
   /  Classic Amiga Software
      /  Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Register To Post

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 Next Page )
PosterThread
TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 12:31:36
#181 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1036
From: Unknown

@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@TRIPOS

Take your pills, Hyperion uses Workbench name at least since 2003...


No need to be rude. And why do you reference to the product Hyperion sell as "AmigaOS 4.0" in a discussion about the product they (without permission) sell using the "Workbench" trademark since October last year (it's still available)? You must be confused.


@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:

NutsAboutAmiga wrote:
@BoingBear

Well this is not workbench disk, it's a workbench zip, so totally different thing.

It just like my workbench I have my computer on is totally different from workbench used to cut wood.

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/5-things-you-cant-copyright


Well, then let me be the first to inform you that Computer Software (including Operating Systems) is very much covered by Copyright laws, and the form of distribution is not what matters! But while copyright is definitively also a potential issue at play here, the point about releasing products under the Workbench mark is a trademark issue, not a copyright issue.

Cloanto owns both the Copyright and the Trademark (and Hyperion is probably infringing on both), but don't mix those IP concepts up!

Anyway, think about a case where some AROS guy would start selling an AROS distribution as the long awaited AmigaOS 4.2, with the tagline "the first official AmigaOS 4 update in many years". Do you think there would be reactions? Yes of course. Would those reactions be morally righteous and have a legal ground? Yes of course, since it would be an obvious and offensive infringement. Even worse, what if the product would be built using Hyperion copyrighted source code?

Many of you who are constantly posting things like "take your pills", "he is a troll, ignore him" etc to my posts about the subject would be the ones screaming loudest in such a case, mark my words! Yet here you are, trying to take some moral high ground and actually defend obvious scoundrels doing exactly that.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Jose 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 14:04:00
#182 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 934
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS
"Anyway, think about a case where some AROS guy would start selling an AROS distribution as the long awaited AmigaOS 4.2, with the tagline "the first official AmigaOS 4 update in many years".

Is there any component of AROS that's been called AmigaOS 4.2 for many years ? You seem to be unable to separate your dislike for Ben or Hyperion from the objective facts. I personally don't even seem to like some of Bens apparent political views on some other post but the above is fact and has been explained hundreds of times why don't you accept it and give it a rest ?

_________________

José

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Petah 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 14:16:21
#183 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 385
From: EU <3 ❤️

Quote:
You seem to be unable to separate your dislike for Ben or Hyperion from the objective facts. I personally don't even seem to like some of Bens apparent political views on some other post but the above is fact and has been explained hundreds of times why don't you accept it and give it a rest ?

Chances are you are addressing a sick person with mental disorder. Furthermore, chances are they haven't taken their medication as instructed by their doctor. If that's the case, than she or he is probably best off without being provoked further.

_________________
That'll Put Marzipan In Your Pie Plate, Bingo

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 15:15:50
#184 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9105
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Quote:
And why do you reference to the product


I know reading skills of some people may be limited, but please read linked document again to see consistent use of Workbench name by Hyperion at least since 2003.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 16:53:53
#185 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1036
From: Unknown

@Jose

Quote:

Jose wrote:

You seem to be unable to separate your dislike for Ben or Hyperion from the objective facts.


Yet I seem to be the only one using verifiable, objective facts in my discussion, instead of calling others "a sick person with mental disorder" who "haven't taken their medication as instructed by their doctor"...



Let's try again: Workbench is a trademark registered and owned by Cloanto to be used in the scope of (and I quote):

"Computer operating programs; Computer operating systems; Computer software for emulating computer operating systems on personal computers; Operating system programs".

Cloanto has been using the "Workbench" mark since 1997 for various operating systems originally made by Commodore for the Amiga series of computers, including their own published "Workbench 3.X" Operating System, which is their take on Amiga OS 3.9+. Since about 2012 they even own the OS. All OS versions made by Commodore. Both the OS and the trademark belongs to Cloanto. It's morally and legally theirs.

In October 2016 Hyperion put an Operating System to market using the "Workbench" mark. An obvious infringement (on trademark and copyright). It is still available from their website.

How about that as "objective facts"? It qualifies, yes?


@pavlor

Quote:

pavlor wrote:
@TRIPOS

Quote:
And why do you reference to the product


I know reading skills of some people may be limited, but please read linked document again to see consistent use of Workbench name by Hyperion at least since 2003.


OK, one more time then: Hyperion did not sell any products (None! Nada!) under the "Workbench" trademark until they began doing so in October 2016.

Cloanto has been using the Workbench mark since 1997 (and not that it matters the slightest, but according to Google Hyperion didn't even exist then, Hyperion wasn't founded until two years later, in 1999). Workbench is a trademark registered and owned by Cloanto, they own it. It is exclusively theirs. They alone can market Operating Systems using that mark.

Heck, Cloanto even own the very Workbench you are referring to (both source code and binaries)!

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Jose 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 17:36:25
#186 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 934
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS
Isn't 3.1 included inside AmigaOS4.x for some time anyways ? But anyway, in your discussions about this, and you seem to always be everywhere when I occasionally check for Amiga news...:), you seemed to be referring to Hyperion's usage of worbench word as AmigaOS component too. There's two places where workbench is name is used on the OS, there's the worbench.library and visual environment and in the old days workbench was just the loadable part of the OS as opposed to the kickstart (that's nowadays loaded too...). So even in the old days the word "workbench" was still an OS component that together with the kickstart made up the whole OS. And notice that the dowload (I can't find it, you say it's still available ?) is under the AmigaOS download page on their website.

_________________

José

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
pavlor 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 17:39:27
#187 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 10-Jul-2005
Posts: 9105
From: Unknown

@TRIPOS

Again... Hyperion uses (for more than a decade) "Workbench" as description of part of their product "AmigaOS", which is evident even from directory sccreenshot you posted...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
AP 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 18:19:18
#188 ]
Regular Member
Joined: 31-Jul-2003
Posts: 483
From: Vienna/Austria

@TRIPOS: While I agree that there is (especially now) a mess with all the Amiga-trademarks, I think you are over interpreting in this case. Hyperion uses the term Workbench (as part of AmigaOS) since they are involved in AmigaOS. Just look at http://www.amigaos.net/

So there was a use of the term Workbench long before October 2016.

And I don´t think that Cloanto owns the whole Workbench, they just licensed the term. On the opposite Hyperion has an exclusive license for developing and distributing AmigaOS (in fact, they own AmigaOS). And as Workbench was and is a part of AmigaOS, they own this part, too. It´s more so, that Cloanto can use the term, too.

_________________

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 18:55:58
#189 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1036
From: Unknown

@Jose & pavlor

It doesn't matter one single bit how you personally perceive "Workbench" (that's only interesting if we are discussing subjective perception instead of objective facts), be it a window manager, a library, a component of a bigger entity, the most historically correct name for the OS, or whatever. It doesn't matter, it's not the point here!

The objective facts are:

  • Workbench is a registered trademark owned by Cloanto.

  • The scope of the trademark is "Operating Systems". Hence Cloanto is the only one allowed to sell Operating System products using the Workbench mark.

  • In October 2016 (i.e. much later than the date of trademark registration) Hyperion for the first time put to the market an Operating System product under the name "Workbench". The bootable OS disk (available as a downloadable .zip-file) was sold as a stand-alone product in their webstore, the price of it was 9.95 Euros, they were explicitly using the by Cloanto registered "Workbench" mark for the product in the webstore, also: they were explicitly NOT using the AmigaOS mark for the product in the webstore. All-in-all, Hyperion used the Cloanto registered Workbench trademark in their online marketing materials no less than 15 (fifteen) times for their stand-alone €9.95 Operating System product.

When you look at this in the light of Hyperion very well knowing about Cloanto's Workbench trademark, and also knowing about Cloanto actually owning the OS (including everything that could possibly be perceived as "Workbench" by any Amiga definition), and Hyperion sneakily trying to actually register the Workbench mark for themselves in another jurisdiction (for which this October 2016 "Workbench 3.1" product launch would serve as a legal ground since it helps a registration process if you can prove you have actually used the mark for real yourself), as well as the "Amiga Forever" mark (which they literally have no reason whatsoever to register, other than to try to f!ck sh!t up for Cloanto), you'll perhaps see (no? Maybe not you then...) that the whole purpose of releasing a "Workbench 3.1" product at all was to challenge Cloanto and/or as one of several steps in their war effort against the legitimate Amiga IP owner. As OS4 developer tonyw said in another thread about the war: "[it] is going to be messy"...

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
TRIPOS 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 19:33:05
#190 ]
Super Member
Joined: 4-Apr-2014
Posts: 1036
From: Unknown

@AP

Quote:

AP wrote:

@TRIPOS: While I agree that there is (especially now) a mess with all the Amiga-trademarks, I think you are over interpreting in this case. Hyperion uses the term Workbench (as part of AmigaOS) since they are involved in AmigaOS. Just look at http://www.amigaos.net/

So there was a use of the term Workbench long before October 2016.


No, they have never explicitly sold a stand-alone Operating System product using the "Workbench" trademark until October 2016.

For the sake of marketing, they could have called it "AmigaOS" on every single one of the 15 cases they call it "Workbench", but they didn't.

The reason became clear the very moment we learned that Hyperion is trying to register the Workbench trademark in a different jurisdiction. When registering trademarks, it really helps if you can prove you have actually had a product on the market using the mark you are trying to register.

It was all about their war effort.


Quote:
And I don´t think that Cloanto owns the whole Workbench, they just licensed the term.


I know it can be confusing, but luckily we don't have to guess, Cloanto owns the Workbench trademark, and Cloanto owns the Operating System.

Quote:
On the opposite Hyperion has an exclusive license for developing and distributing AmigaOS


Hyperion had a license to develop and distribute the OS from Amiga Inc. The thing is, Amiga Inc does not own the OS. Cloanto does. In fact, "for their last commercial activity - Amiga retro games on the Blackberry appstore - [Amiga Inc] had to get a Kickstart license from Cloanto (instead of the other way around)!

Quote:
(in fact, they own AmigaOS).


No, Hyperion doesn't own the OS. A license to market and develop does not mean ownership at all.

Cloanto owns every copyright from the Commodore era. The part on top of OS 3.1 that constitutes OS4 could perhaps be claimed by Hyperion, but those parts can not be separated from the 3.1 it's built upon. And should there happen to be any IP in OS4 that Hyperion hasn't managed to pay the agreed price for, then I suppose they will have a difficult time claiming ownership for those components as well. I am pretty certain that is the case.

There is a picture in this thread that could help you understand the whole picture. Everything the red lines of "the Boing Ball Branch" is pointing at, is built using Cloanto's OS 3.1 Intellectual Property.

Quote:
And as Workbench was and is a part of AmigaOS, they own this part, too. It´s more so, that Cloanto can use the term, too.


Again, Cloanto owns both the Workbench trademark as well as the OS and any components thereof (both source code and binaries) that the term might be referring to.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 21:24:51
#191 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@TRIPOS

Yes but you can't copy right "Workbench", its common word, that can be disputed, beside selling and distributing a product does make you the owner of that product,

all the Amiga assets was transferred from Commodore to Escom to Vis-corp to Aminio, to Gateway to Amiga Inc, and licensed to Hyperion.

I don't know if Colanto has been illegally selling workbench or not, that’s not my case to argue, but Hyperion ended up with source code, Cloanto does not have that. lots of AmigaOS3.9 code was not recovered, EditPad was for example replaced with Notepad and so on.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Rob 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 23:31:42
#192 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 20-Mar-2003
Posts: 5908
From: S.Wales

@NutsAboutAmiga

Quote:
all the Amiga assets was transferred from Commodore to Escom to Vis-corp to Aminio, to Gateway to Amiga Inc, and licensed to Hyperion.


The Viscorp deal never went through and Gateway bought the Amiga assets from Escom. Amino was formed to purchase the assets from Gateway and subsequently renamed themselves Amiga Inc.

Things are even more hazy now than they've ever been. Cloanto have registered a load of Commodore and Amiga related trademarks and copyright but I haven't actually seen any documentation to verify that any transfer took place or who from. Maybe TMHG can point me in the right direction since he's become the self appointed expert on all such matters.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Jose 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 17-Jun-2017 23:52:04
#193 ]
Cult Member
Joined: 10-Mar-2003
Posts: 934
From: Unknown

"...
No, they have never explicitly sold a stand-alone Operating System product using the "Workbench" trademark until October 2016."

Well, in that case it's not a stand-alone either is it ? Because you still need the Kickstart make up the whole OS. So it's an update to the Workbench part of the old "classic" OS. Just like if you want to run UAE legally you have to extract the kickstart from a machine you own or buy it from Cloanto. But again, the kickstart itself has been made available with OS4 for same time IIRC (my PegasosII died and I can't remember but I think that the case...), so yes, it gets complicated...

Last edited by Jose on 17-Jun-2017 at 11:52 PM.

_________________

José

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 0:53:47
#194 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10844
From: In the village

@Rob

Well, I'm not TMHG, but I'll repost the link, because we should never assume everyone here read the story initially:

Source

Anyone reading the above for the 1st time, skip "overview" and substitute the more recent trademark thread for current trademark info/activity.

Source

But there was one addition to this thinking in case you never looked at updates of AmigaDocuments:

Quote:
At the Saku 2014 event in Finland, Cloanto president Mr. Mike Battilana described [228] how the 1997 agreements opened the door and "allowed to build on that license and later slowly acquire some things".

Source

#6

Last edited by number6 on 18-Jun-2017 at 01:04 AM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
iggy 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 1:24:26
#195 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@number6

Isn't that trail of documents just SO amusing?

Reminds me of part of an old Phillip K. Dick story, at this point we should be running away with our tails between our legs howling "tainted"!

BTW - Workbench is just a component of the OS, so this is much drama over, primarily, naming and trademarks.

Last edited by iggy on 18-Jun-2017 at 01:35 AM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
number6 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 1:29:37
#196 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 25-Mar-2005
Posts: 10844
From: In the village

@iggy

After reading his twitter, which has some newer material, I don't think he's keeping up to date. He should prolly read our trademark thread. (evil grin)

#6

Last edited by number6 on 18-Jun-2017 at 01:53 AM.

_________________
This posting, in its entirety, represents solely the perspective of the author.
*Secrecy has served us so well*

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 10:50:48
#197 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@number6

I have not seen any "Foreclosure Agreement from Hyperion", until this time I assume they are alive and kicking. (If remember correct the issue was resolved Hyperion payed the creditors in the end.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreclosure

I assume if Cloanto is going obtain Hyperion's assets, they need to pay of Hyperion's creditors. If Hyperion ended up going bankrupt. All the added value, to product over the time period Hyperion developed the OS, will be value to creditors.

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jun-2017 at 11:29 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jun-2017 at 11:27 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jun-2017 at 11:23 AM.
Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jun-2017 at 11:00 AM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 11:15:13
#198 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@Rob

And I forgot "Amiga Technologies", that should be in there some where.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
NutsAboutAmiga 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 11:20:05
#199 ]
Elite Member
Joined: 9-Jun-2004
Posts: 11357
From: Norway

@iggy

And in this picture you can see that only one of the disks are named workbench,
I hope they have the rights to Amiga Fonts

Last edited by NutsAboutAmiga on 18-Jun-2017 at 11:20 AM.

_________________
http://lifeofliveforit.blogspot.no/
Facebook::LiveForIt Software for AmigaOS

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
iggy 
Re: Hyperion release official AmigaOS WB3.1 & Kickstart 3.1 updates !!!
Posted on 18-Jun-2017 12:34:10
#200 ]
Super Member
Joined: 20-Oct-2010
Posts: 1175
From: Bear, Delaware USA

@NutsAboutAmiga


Quote:
And in this picture you can see that only one of the disks are named workbench


Yes, only one disk contains the Workbench component of the OS.
Which in a way, rather argues against Cloanto argument for referring to the OS as Workbench, maybe they could call it "Amiga Fonts".

Last edited by iggy on 18-Jun-2017 at 01:28 PM.

 Status: Offline
Profile     Report this post  
Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 Next Page )

[ home ][ about us ][ privacy ] [ forums ][ classifieds ] [ links ][ news archive ] [ link to us ][ user account ]
Copyright (C) 2000 - 2019 Amigaworld.net.
Amigaworld.net was originally founded by David Doyle